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1972 351C starter?

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russosborne View Drop Down
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    Posted: 20-May-2015 at 9:49PM
It's been a long time (30 + years) since I had to change a starter on a Cleveland.
I don't have to do so now, but I was just looking online for Cleveland stuff at Summit Racing and they list the same starter for a 302/351W/351C. Although I have seen other stuff they list for a Cleveland that no way will fit one. As do several other places.
I really seem to remember that the Cleveland took an entirely different starter than the Windsor. Like 3 mounting bolts vs 2.
Am I screwed up here or is Summit?
It would really open up choices if I am wrong.
Thanks,
Russ
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IndyLTD I I Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2015 at 11:52PM
Yes the 351 C uses same starter only difference is manual or automatic transmission. The 351m/400/429/460 starters are different, they have 1 threaded mounting ear. The FE (390,427,428) engines use a 3 bolt mount if my memory serves me correctly.
Lee Virden
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote russosborne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-May-2015 at 12:11AM
Getting old bites.

I really thought the C had a different one.
guess that means I can get one of the high torque starters at some point for it. Which is a good thing, if my mind lasts that long.

Thanks,
Russ
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BadHabit351 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-October-2015 at 8:12AM
Originally posted by russosborne russosborne wrote:

Getting old bites.

I really thought the C had a different one.
guess that means I can get one of the high torque starters at some point for it. Which is a good thing, if my mind lasts that long.

Thanks,
Russ

I have a starter from a 1995 Mustang on my 393C. Higher torque and more header clearance. All it takes is a simple wiring change (no modifications).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote russosborne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-November-2015 at 11:16PM
Thanks.
Wiring isn't a problem for me. LOL It's one of the few things I still enjoy in life.
Another thing to add to the "someday" list.

Are you using a stock starter? Saving money is always a good thing, if I don't have to buy an aftermarket one it would be nice. Just don't know how the stock ones compare torque wise.
Russ
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BadHabit351 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-November-2015 at 12:49AM
I bought a high dollar aftermarket starter. I had my motor "kick-back" and it stripped out the plastic (!!!) sun gear. I went to O'Reilly's and bought a stock starter for the 1995 Mustang 5.0L (about $75) and it's done a great job. My 393 is 10:1 compression and I run 12 degrees initial timing. The starter turns it over effortlessly. It's a poor mans high torque mini starter. Prior to this swap, I had to remove the passenger header to service the starter (which got burned up because of header heat). Now I can swap with no issue...and dropped 8-10 lbs in the process.

Wiring change: Swap the battery cable to the starter to the battery side of the inner fender solenoid (so it's a constant hot). The make up a 12-14 gauge wire from the "switched side" of the solenoid to the solenoid on the starter. That's it.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aquartlow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-November-2015 at 3:06AM
Yep, those PMGR starters are a great upgrade, especially when CR's go over 9.5 to 1. Even the factory Motorcraft/Ford PGMR's have some plastic internal parts Ouch(opened/cleaned up a '96 F350 sourced 460 starter before installing it in my Ranchero). LOTS of header clearance as you mentioned as well when having a PMGR installed.
www.supermotors.net/22468
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BadHabit351 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-November-2015 at 4:35AM
Originally posted by aquartlow aquartlow wrote:

Yep, those PMGR starters are a great upgrade, especially when CR's go over 9.5 to 1. Even the factory Motorcraft/Ford PGMR's have some plastic internal parts Ouch(opened/cleaned up a '96 F350 sourced 460 starter before installing it in my Ranchero). LOTS of header clearance as you mentioned as well when having a PMGR installed.

I figured if the $300 starter had plastic, then why not just buy the parts store starter for 1/4 the price. At least it isn't all that expensive when they "pop".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BadHabit351 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-November-2015 at 4:59AM
Dang...they've gone up to $125. Still cheaper than the performance ones.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-November-2015 at 5:54AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aquartlow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-November-2015 at 6:05AM
[QUOTE=Rockatansky] http://www.dbelectrical.com/c-1126-50-liter.aspx[/QUOTE]
 
I had issues with the Db starter I purchased(wouldn't fully engage after a couple of weeks of use, grinding the flex-plate teeth got old QUICK). Hopefully for others, the Db starter issues were a fluke, or maybe just my luck Ouch(2 starters did the exact same thing, the reason I went & bought a JY '96 F350 starter with no more issues). Still have the brand new Db replacement sitting on my shelf, if ever the used Motorcraft gives a hint of a problem. I will say Db was great about handling the 2 warranty replacements, quick and easy, can't say anything bad about their customer service. 
www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires.

No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BadHabit351 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-November-2015 at 6:22AM
My brother in-law had issues with a starter purchased from them as well. That's why I went to the parts store to get one when my CVR starter took a dump.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lynchster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-November-2015 at 11:14AM
Originally posted by BadHabit351 BadHabit351 wrote:

I bought a high dollar aftermarket starter. I had my motor "kick-back" and it stripped out the plastic (!!!) sun gear. I went to O'Reilly's and bought a stock starter for the 1995 Mustang 5.0L (about $75) and it's done a great job. My 393 is 10:1 compression and I run 12 degrees initial timing. The starter turns it over effortlessly. It's a poor mans high torque mini starter. Prior to this swap, I had to remove the passenger header to service the starter (which got burned up because of header heat). Now I can swap with no issue...and dropped 8-10 lbs in the process.

Wiring change: Swap the battery cable to the starter to the battery side of the inner fender solenoid (so it's a constant hot). The make up a 12-14 gauge wire from the "switched side" of the solenoid to the solenoid on the starter. That's it.



That's useful information.
Chuck
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-November-2015 at 12:21PM
Originally posted by aquartlow aquartlow wrote:

[QUOTE=Rockatansky] http://www.dbelectrical.com/c-1126-50-liter.aspx[/QUOTE]
 
I had issues with the Db starter ... the reason I went & bought a JY '96 F350 starter with no more issues...
 
yup I'd rather have a used OEM part than new aftermarket most of the time
 
I hope that beauty I'm not sure where it is works at least as long as it's been sitting now Embarrassed
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aquartlow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-November-2015 at 12:47PM
Quote  
yup I'd rather have a used OEM part than new aftermarket most of the time
 
I hope that beauty I'm not sure where it is works at least as long as it's been sitting now Embarrassed
 
I really hope I never have to find out Wink. The extra starter did do "a ride-along" to Dawsonville and back last month, figured if I had it along I wouldn't need it. Coulda kept 1/2 dozen cars on the road with all the 500lbs of stuff/tools I loaded in the back of my Ranchero Ouch, anticipating a problem and never wanting to be stuck on the side of the road(yeah, I have issues).
www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ilyes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-November-2015 at 2:16PM
Sounds great, the stock starter is about 1/8" away from the headers on mine, gonna swap that out quick.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aquartlow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-November-2015 at 2:50PM
Sorry I went off-topic with my last post.
  Here is a pic of the size differences between two Ford 460/auto starters, easy to tell which one will yield more header clearance. The PMGR starter on the right for the win. 
www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires.

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Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SocalTorino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-April-2018 at 6:40AM
Hi, doing some cpr on this topic,
My starter is starting to fail and is over heating with the long tubes.
I want to switch to the smaller 95 5.0 starter to free up some space to help with the heat.
But I’m having trouble understanding the wire route change
Want to understand it’s before buying the starter
My car is a stock 1972 351 Cj 4 speed
Also Do I buy the automatic or 5 speed starter for the 95 Mustang 5.0

Edited by SocalTorino - 18-April-2018 at 6:41AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aquartlow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-April-2018 at 7:21AM
Dang, that must be some CPR, resuscitation at the 2.5 year mark LOL.
If you look at pic above, the PMGR has is a "pigtail" wire at about the 4 o'clock position, this wire goes where the original large starter wire went on the fender mounted starter solenoid. The main/larger starter wire switches sides on the fender mounted solenoid(battery side), the starter's solenoid has battery voltage via this larger cable at all times. You can remove the fender mounted solenoid and do all the wiring terminations at the starter but the FM solenoid lends itself to easily "hook up" other electrical connections is needed in the future. If you purchase the Db Electrical starter, a wiring diagram is included as well as the wire/terminals needed for the conversion.
 
Image result for db electrical pmgr wiring diagram
 Hope this helps

Edited by aquartlow - 18-April-2018 at 7:22AM
www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires.

No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t.

Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-April-2018 at 7:34AM
is this diagram also correct?

https://www.cjponyparts.com/tech-mini-starter/a/155/

i've heard of schematics out there that will run the starter all day after you let off the key Exclamation
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SocalTorino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-April-2018 at 7:55AM
LoL old post need love too.
Cool thanks that really helped!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BadHabit351 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-April-2018 at 9:05AM
Originally posted by Rockatansky Rockatansky wrote:

is this diagram also correct?

https://www.cjponyparts.com/tech-mini-starter/a/155/

i've heard of schematics out there that will run the starter all day after you let off the key Exclamation

Both of those diagrams are the same and correct.

More than likely what's happening with the "run the stater all day after you let off the key" is that starter solenoid is hanging up on the starter. There is no way that anyone with any mechanical ability can wire this wrong.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BadHabit351 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-April-2018 at 9:08AM
Originally posted by SocalTorino SocalTorino wrote:

Hi, doing some cpr on this topic,
My starter is starting to fail and is over heating with the long tubes.
I want to switch to the smaller 95 5.0 starter to free up some space to help with the heat.
But I’m having trouble understanding the wire route change
Want to understand it’s before buying the starter
My car is a stock 1972 351 Cj 4 speed
Also Do I buy the automatic or 5 speed starter for the 95 Mustang 5.0

There is some modification to use this starter on your 4 speed. I'll check this out and get back to you shortly. The 5.0L starter is the same for auto & 5 speed...which fits auto in our cars, IIRC.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BadHabit351 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-April-2018 at 9:31AM
Found the info...if you have the 164 tooth flywheel; then you can't use the 5.0L PMGR starter from a parts store. The 164 tooth flywheel uses a different depth than the 157 tooth.

Pretty sure you have a 164 tooth flywheel which you would need this starter: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/fms-m11000mt164 or this one https://www.summitracing.com/parts/pwm-9604
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