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1974 351/4V - Is it a CJ or not?

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unlovedford View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote unlovedford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: 1974 351/4V - Is it a CJ or not?
    Posted: 28-December-2012 at 12:50PM
I have the opportunity to buy a 1974 351 Cleveland 4 Bbl engine with 86K miles and a rebuilt C6 for cheap. Engine has been disassembled and will include new lifters, a performance cam and full gasket set. Very clean, ran fine before disassembly, he just wanted to freshen it up a bit. Will also include a new radiator. Everything looks clean and solid.

This is my question:

Is this a CJ engine, being a 1974? It came out of a Torino and I thought it would be nice to install this combo in C's Q Code if it is. Any help would be appreciated. It has the "4" marked heads, the 4 Bbl intake, but could not check in the pics for the 4 bolt mains. Complete from air cleaner case to oil pan.
Joe
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GTW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-December-2012 at 12:57PM
The Q code was available in 1974, and IIRC the 4 speed was too.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote unlovedford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-December-2012 at 1:24PM
Thanks, Walt! Worth the price, then.
Joe
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mcford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-December-2012 at 1:30PM
4 speed was not but Q code was.
Mike
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote mcford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-December-2012 at 1:31PM
72 q code will have the 2v sized valves.
Mike
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72GTS351CJ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-December-2012 at 1:35PM
Its been debated numerous times. From my knowledge if the block is marked d2ae-ca then you maybe have 4 bolt main. The only definite way to check is pull the pan.. As for the heads there is 4 and a 4 with a dot after it like this    4.    Anyhow i believe you have large port heads but maybe not the desirable closed chamber heads. You won't know until you pull the head. Sorry it doesn't help but i went threw that with my motor. It turned out i had the 4bolt main block but open chamber heads. Thanks Rick
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GTW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-December-2012 at 1:35PM
Originally posted by mcford mcford wrote:

4 speed was not but Q code was.

good to know.
Griffin
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote unlovedford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-December-2012 at 1:38PM
Ah. It shows the 4 but actually has the 2bbl sized valves? That should be a bit better for low end torque. C wants something fast, so I thought this might be something to build that will move out pretty well. She is used to fast Hondas and Acuras, so it will take a bit of convincing that these need a bit of mental adjustment to get used to.
Joe
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mcford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-December-2012 at 2:26PM
sorry, meant 74 not 72.

Mike
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote mcford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-December-2012 at 2:26PM
no closed chamber heads after 71.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote unlovedford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-December-2012 at 3:09PM
Just looked at the pics again. There is a dot after the 4. Any difference?
Joe
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-December-2012 at 6:53PM
ask the wiki
 
 
the dot or 'Cannonball' first appeared July of 1970, nobody knows why or what it designates. i recall there was a suggestion that it matches dots also found on castings that had been previously cast in Gray Iron w/o the dot, now cast in Nodular iron with the dot but nothing to confirm. as you can see the production run continued with Closed Chamber heads so that's not it
 
 
far as the small valve heads from 1973 & 1974, some guys swear that their virgin D3 heads came from the factory with large valves, could have been a mid-year change for emissions, driveability, or just because they were out of big valves?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-December-2012 at 7:13PM
how sure are you that it's an untampered 1974 production engine?
there's an engine build date code stamped in near the timing pointer tab, and cylinder head cast date codes under the valve covers, for the heads to possibly be original to the block their cast date code should be within a couple weeks max of the engine assy date
 
there's no difference in the raw casting between a 4 bolt or a 2 bolt main block, all castings have the bulge provision in the bulkhead where they get drilled for the outside bolts, only way to know is to look
 
is the air cleaner cover missing? if not, what's the decal say on it?
 
also curious what cam you're getting, any info on it?


Edited by Rockatansky - 28-December-2012 at 7:18PM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote unlovedford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-December-2012 at 1:58AM
I am mostly sure that it has not been tampered with, only disassembled and is a 1974. The owner is sick and needs the money.

Air cleaner case is solid blue, the large diameter, says 351-4V, lists Regular fuel, is marked FRONT, and has the arrow pointing that way.

Cam is in the box, is an Erson, Erson lifters, Motorcraft head bolts. All unopened ans in the original packaging.

Starter, all pulleys, motor mounts, accessories, coil, everything included.

Radiator is new and in the box.

C6 has been rebuilt.

I am going off pictures listed in the ad. He is asking $400 for everything and I just wanted to be sure that it was worth that before going further. C wants something that will hold it's own on the strip (thanks Alex and Allan) and that she can get a serious thrill out of racing. It will also be driven on the street to work and such. She is so used to smaller, lighter cars that I am having a difficult time getting her to understand that her Acura can run sub-6 second 0 - 60 times and hit triple digit speeds easier, faster and less expensively than an older heavier V8 powered Torino. I do not want to go the 429/460 route because of weight (she also wants it to stop and handle well), so I am in a bit of a quandry.

Anyhow, I need some advice on this, as I could build and keep the engine as a spare for my 4 speed car, sell the C6 and use the radiator in a future project if you don't think it is a feasable venture. Price seems awfully cheap to pass up.

Joe
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote occupant Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-December-2012 at 3:50AM
Joe, if you get a chance to take some pics of the cam card and what part number, that would be sweet, because I'd like to have it as a reference for when someday I take this engine apart, to know what cam is in there, it's supposed to be an Erson RV cam of some kind but I can't find ANY info online about them.

Edited by occupant - 29-December-2012 at 3:50AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-December-2012 at 5:26AM
i wouldn't pass it up, as you say you can either use it for the build your wife is doing or use it up in pieces for your own stuff, but i think it's just what she needs
 
i found some Erson info in these pages
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Regul8r Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-December-2012 at 7:46AM
$400 is worth it
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stanman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-December-2012 at 8:09AM
In mostly stock form my '72 CJ, which had the smaller valve open chamber heads, did the quarter in around 15.2....not bad for a land yacht. That's with a 4 speed and 3:50 gears. I think Catherine will be satisfied with that. 

Edited by stanman - 29-December-2012 at 8:10AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kenneth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-December-2012 at 8:17AM
Ask him to drop the pan for you and photo (assuming its out). Not sure about the 74 but it should have the 4MA crank in it too.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-December-2012 at 10:53AM
not sure what the differences between the 4M / 4MA / 4MAB cranks are, but if it's a 1974 build i would guess it might have the latest 4MAB revision crank in it?
 
the only different crank i'm aware of would be the genuine Boss D1ZX-AA crank, it has a slightly different imbalance but otherwise should physically interchange w/o issue just like the others. i wouldn't doubt that the D1ZX crank was spec'd for slightly more oil clearance from the factory also
 
as far as being 2 or 4 bolt, i wouldn't let that weigh to heavily on the decision @ $400
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-December-2012 at 10:56AM
Originally posted by stanman stanman wrote:

In mostly stock form my '72 CJ, which had the smaller valve open chamber heads... 
 
no small valve CJ's in 72, the only small valve OC Clevelands in 72 were 2V's
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stanman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-December-2012 at 12:17PM
I beg to differ. I bought mine in 1978 with 36,000 miles. Showed no signs of ever being apart (but could have been, I suppose). Not sure if they were 2V size but they weren't the 2.19's like the closed chamber. Also had the 4 stamped on the corner of the head. The engine is stored away in my garage. If I get a chance I'll take off a valve cover and see what the casting number is on the head. Maybe replacement heads, maybe a late in year production, but they were there when I bought it....And the block is 4 bolt mains.

On the subject of 4 bolt mains, I don't think they increase the strength of the Cleveland block any great amount. My theory is Ford went to 4 bolt to compete with Chevy's 4 bolt. In a GM, the extra bolts do increase strength because the main bolts are smaller than the Ford's. The Ford 2 bolt mains are supposed to be safe to (I think) 6500-7000 RPM's (?).


Edited by stanman - 29-December-2012 at 12:23PM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mcford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-December-2012 at 3:53PM
my builder told me that with good rod bolts and a balance job, a 2 bolt block is good to 7000 rpm's.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote unlovedford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-December-2012 at 4:13PM
Well, I talked with the gentleman this afternoon, and got some additional information on everything. The drivetrain was in his grandmother's '74 Torino. The car had 86K actual miles and was hardly driven over the years. When he took possession of the car, it was running well, but had a small noise coming from the front of the block. Since he was intending on getting a '72 F100 to restore, he pulled the complete drivetrain to use. Since the engine was out, he tore it down and found that the noise was some of the plastic teeth had come off the timing chain and that nothing was wrong with the engine. No need to bore it, just a nice hone needed.

C6 transmission is completely rebuilt by a local reputable builder here in town and has never been installed.

Radiator is new in the box, never installed.

Erson cam is an "RV" cam (perfect for his F100 truck project), lifters are Erson, head bolts are new Motorcraft, gasket set is FelPro. Block looks great, heads are redone with a port and polish, pistons are fine, crank needs just a simple polish.

2 sets of Torino motor mounts, A/C compressor, PS pump, Alternator, all pulleys, belts, coil, flywheel, air cleaner case, etc all included in the sale. Several large boxes of things.

I feel really bad for him, as his health is not well and he is moving. I made him an offer and he accepted. Going to inspect everything in the morning and load it up.
Joe
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote torkair Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-December-2012 at 9:00PM
Nice find there, I'm still waiting for the day that I can stick some CC 4v heads on the 400 in the Ranchero since it is also a factory Q code.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-December-2012 at 10:00PM
RV cam = let's wait till you have some numbers
 
for me to keep a clear conscience i need to suggest; 
 
that you replace the rod nuts with new, the stock rod bolts are fine but the nuts fail. miniscule cost & very easy ARP 200-8604 by the 'each', 200-8624 is a 2-pack, or 200-8634 is a 10-pack
and that you Exclamation consider replacing the stock valves with new 1 piece units. the stock valve stems are friction welded to the heads. they don't stay welded, sometimes even at idle
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote unlovedford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-December-2012 at 3:04AM
Excellent advice. I will surely do everything to ensure I don't have to pull it apart again.
Joe
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote unlovedford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-December-2012 at 7:40AM
Picked everything up. Guy was super nice and helped load up. I took pictures of the intake numbers as well as the cam info.
Joe
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote legend onirot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-December-2012 at 2:59PM
been out of town... i leave for a week and you bought another one? 
you are making it very difficult for me to catch up to you.... 
 
 
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