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351 Cleveland Spark Plugs?!

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    Posted: 21-April-2018 at 11:11AM
Hello!
Right now I am running NGK plugs in my 351 Cleveland in my 73 Torino. They were already in there after I purchased the car, do you all have any recommendations for a good Motorcraft plug for a mildly built 351 Cleveland? Please let me know, thanks for all your help!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ilyes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-April-2018 at 1:20AM
Autolite 24
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote changinlatitudes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-April-2018 at 2:35AM
I know you asked about Motorcraft plugs, but I agree on the Autolite 24. Tough to beat.
Matt

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GoldFinger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-April-2018 at 4:27AM
I'll pick some up to today thanks guys! Just to let you know these are for 2v head. Also, what should they be gapped to?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-April-2018 at 5:55AM
IIRC .035 for points, .045-.050 HEI
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GoldFinger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-April-2018 at 6:07AM
Thanks John!.. everything was changed inside the distributor with Petronix.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-April-2018 at 7:11AM
ok i thought you did, i'd say about .045?
oh BTW i just found those radio knobs for you Big smile (they were buried here on my desk Embarrassed) and i have the door plastic stuff here for you too...
JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE
74 VETTE CUSTOM
90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED
77 CELICA CUSTOM
75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED
79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GoldFinger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-April-2018 at 10:22AM
Ok John sounds good.
So I bought the Autolite 24 plugs.. here's what happened the car was already cold natured now it's even worse took a lot longer for the car to warm up reved it up more than what I usually have to get to idle without shutting off. Once I got it to idle to about 950 or so on its own, when I put it in reverse it shuts off the idle goes down of course. However the car starts right back up. If I can get it from Park to Reverse down to Drive it's no problem it's when I put it in reverse it shuts off. I did Gap the plugs to .45 like John said. But the NGK plug I took out which is an NGK UR4 which is what was in there when I bought the car, seems to have been gapped and about .35. I believe I put these in some years ago, but that was the plug that was in there when I first got the car. Can anybody give me any insight as to why the car now take so long to warm up, and why it wants to shut off when it's put in reverse??
Once it does warm up and idle it sounds a lot better than it did!..When I took out the plugs that were fouled out all of them were dark brown or black...
Any insight?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-April-2018 at 10:38AM
have you checked the thermostat yet?

351C takes a special stat with a 'hat' on the temp sensor pod that works in conjunction with a brass restrictor that is press fit into the block below the stat. many brass restrictors have been removed by individuals that think they may be smarter than Henry, many have incorrect generic chevy & windsor type stats installed and many suffer from both conditions

dark brown / black plugs indicate a possible choke not opening situation which in turn relates to the engine not getting hot but may be it's own can of worms. also maybe an easy fix if it is indeed a choke issue

===============================
UR4 is correct for 1973 351C https://www.sparkplugs.com/Automotive-c134.aspx

also calls out Autolite 25 not 24 ? ignore the 45's they're for Windsor mixed into the listing

oh guess what? 24 is Colder than 25, may explain something

and stick to the recommended gap for the plug / application which is .035"

https://www.sparkplugs.com/learning-center/article/225/heat-range-conversion-chart




Edited by Rockatansky - 22-April-2018 at 10:51AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-April-2018 at 10:51AM
what's the timing set at?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GoldFinger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-April-2018 at 11:36AM
To veteran members replied here and said to do the 24 so that's why I did it, John said he believed they were supposed to be set at .045

Not blaming anybody of course, just going by what was shared with me


Originally posted by Rockatansky Rockatansky wrote:

have you checked the thermostat yet?

351C takes a special stat with a 'hat' on the temp sensor pod that works in conjunction with a brass restrictor that is press fit into the block below the stat. many brass restrictors have been removed by individuals that think they may be smarter than Henry, many have incorrect generic chevy & windsor type stats installed and many suffer from both conditions

dark brown / black plugs indicate a possible choke not opening situation which in turn relates to the engine not getting hot but may be it's own can of worms. also maybe an easy fix if it is indeed a choke issue

===============================
UR4 is correct for 1973 351C https://www.sparkplugs.com/Automotive-c134.aspx

also calls out Autolite 25 not 24 ? ignore the 45's they're for Windsor mixed into the listing

oh guess what? 24 is Colder than 25, may explain something

and stick to the recommended gap for the plug / application which is .035"

https://www.sparkplugs.com/learning-center/article/225/heat-range-conversion-chart






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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GoldFinger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-April-2018 at 11:38AM
Not sure where the timing is set at the moment.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote changinlatitudes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-April-2018 at 11:44AM
Hmmm....never had a cold issue with my 24s, but I also gapped at .035".

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GoldFinger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-April-2018 at 11:45AM
I never even looked at the thermostat since I've had the car the last few years, I'll check it out. Also the car has a 600 manual choke Edelbrock carburetor on it which is complete garbage right now.
There is no choke on it anywhere I just have to give it gas or floor to get it to start...And it is a complete pain to do so!

My goal is to go possibly with a Holley 600 or 650 electric choke in the next month or two
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GoldFinger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-April-2018 at 11:46AM
Originally posted by changinlatitudes changinlatitudes wrote:

Hmmm....never had a cold issue with my 24s, but I also gapped at .035".



I have them gapped at .045 which may be the problem...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-April-2018 at 12:18PM
i was just going from memory they say more gap for a hotter ignition than points but try .035 you can't go wrong there
sounds like it's running rich  but yes timing and carb adjustment can affect the running and idle too! i'm not a fan of edelbrock carbs i personally prefer holleys! but i'd recommend adding 1 or 2 good inline fuel filters! holley's don't like dirt!!!!
JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE
74 VETTE CUSTOM
90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED
77 CELICA CUSTOM
75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED
79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-April-2018 at 12:22PM
actually thinking about it now... i'm used to HEI 60,000 volt coils, pertronix just converts the pionts to electronic ignition you probably still have the old 30,000 volt coil? so then yes .035 Embarrassed
JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE
74 VETTE CUSTOM
90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED
77 CELICA CUSTOM
75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED
79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED
75 VEGA V6 5 SPD
70 CHEV C10 P/U
68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GoldFinger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-April-2018 at 12:26PM
Originally posted by californiajohnny californiajohnny wrote:

actually thinking about it now... i'm used to HEI 60,000 volt coils, pertronix just converts the pionts to electronic ignition you probably still have the old 30,000 volt coil? so then yes .035 Embarrassed


John, I have a FlameThrower coil now, for whatever reason my brand new Accel coil would not get the car to start!
And I personally like Accel!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-April-2018 at 2:18PM
Pertronix says their Flamethrower canister style is 40k volts ...

main reason i don't like changing the recommended gap of a plug is because the strap electrode is designed & shaped for the intended gap. if you open the gap the strap is no longer parallel across the center electrode and both electrodes wear very quickly due to the angular geometry. as the electrodes wear very quickly, the gap changes just as fast. parallel electrodes maintain the desired gap over a long period :)

multiple strap side gap plugs even longer Geek

1 heat range or opening the gap some usually doesn't make enough difference to notice and the home scientists that run those experiments can almost always convince themselves of improvement even when the laws of physics suggest the results should opposite

start changing things that are right with other issues and you see what can happen, the small insignificant changes that would normally get eaten up by everything else being right now compound existing unrelated issues

so about your manual chokeless carb, any idea who might have tried tuning it to the point that it sucks now? not too many people complain about the Edelbrock carbs except that they don't make the power that Holleys do. do you know what model number carb you have there, it should be stamped on the left front mounting ear?

from the model number you can reverse engineer what's been done to it and either return it factory calibration and start fresh, try to make improvements from where you're at now or decide to pitch it and start over with something else. the Edelbrock site has the tuning charts that shows what change to make for the desired results

i'll throw out there that the new 'designer Holleys' are nothing but trouble on 351C's IDK why but they are. 80457 comes to mind, vacuum 600 newfangled POS the world doesn't need just use a 1850 because they work. seems like all the new toughguy named Holleys suck. street brawler avenger warrior don't get caught up in a name, the old standard Holleys work the new crap not so much

get yourself a gasket or you can just use silicone if done correctly (clean & dry surfaces) and post some pics of what you find inside the stat housing and we'll see what you have going on in there

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-April-2018 at 2:20PM
oh and what intake?

timing alone can be why it doesn't stay running and/or make heat


Edited by Rockatansky - 22-April-2018 at 2:21PM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-April-2018 at 2:56PM
i totally agree! yes old school 1850 style. i first saw one of these new style holley's on alex's wagon when i was down there... took the air filter off to check and adjust the float level then retune the mixture screws... it had no external float adjustment or sight plugs to check the fuel level!!! i was not impressed!
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74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE
74 VETTE CUSTOM
90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED
77 CELICA CUSTOM
75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED
79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED
75 VEGA V6 5 SPD
70 CHEV C10 P/U
68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GoldFinger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-April-2018 at 3:07PM
Originally posted by Rockatansky Rockatansky wrote:

oh and what intake?

timing alone can be why it doesn't stay running and/or make heat



Edlebrock 2v intake
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GoldFinger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-April-2018 at 3:10PM
The previous owner told me was hard to start and it is, if I don't drive it for a while I have to at times pour gas down the throat of the carburetor and pump the gas sometimes to get it to start. Once it turns over and starts I generally have to rev it a few times so it won't cut off.

After I've driven it for a while I no longer have to pump the gas or put gas in the throat of the carburetor, but it turns over six seven eight times before finally catches fire and runs



Originally posted by Rockatansky Rockatansky wrote:

Pertronix says their Flamethrower canister style is 40k volts ...

main reason i don't like changing the recommended gap of a plug is because the strap electrode is designed & shaped for the intended gap. if you open the gap the strap is no longer parallel across the center electrode and both electrodes wear very quickly due to the angular geometry. as the electrodes wear very quickly, the gap changes just as fast. parallel electrodes maintain the desired gap over a long period :)

multiple strap side gap plugs even longer Geek

1 heat range or opening the gap some usually doesn't make enough difference to notice and the home scientists that run those experiments can almost always convince themselves of improvement even when the laws of physics suggest the results should opposite

start changing things that are right with other issues and you see what can happen, the small insignificant changes that would normally get eaten up by everything else being right now compound existing unrelated issues

so about your manual chokeless carb, any idea who might have tried tuning it to the point that it sucks now? not too many people complain about the Edelbrock carbs except that they don't make the power that Holleys do. do you know what model number carb you have there, it should be stamped on the left front mounting ear?

from the model number you can reverse engineer what's been done to it and either return it factory calibration and start fresh, try to make improvements from where you're at now or decide to pitch it and start over with something else. the Edelbrock site has the tuning charts that shows what change to make for the desired results

i'll throw out there that the new 'designer Holleys' are nothing but trouble on 351C's IDK why but they are. 80457 comes to mind, vacuum 600 newfangled POS the world doesn't need just use a 1850 because they work. seems like all the new toughguy named Holleys suck. street brawler avenger warrior don't get caught up in a name, the old standard Holleys work the new crap not so much

get yourself a gasket or you can just use silicone if done correctly (clean & dry surfaces) and post some pics of what you find inside the stat housing and we'll see what you have going on in there

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GoldFinger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-April-2018 at 3:18PM
Thanks for the info thus for everyone! Ironically I just had someone tell me within the last few days that a 351 Cleveland's all they need particularly for a mildly built 351 such as mine is 600 CFM preferably Holly. The 1850 is one that I was looking at but I was looking at an electric choke version over a manual.
Is there a benefit to either or outside of easier starting for an electric choke?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-April-2018 at 3:28PM
first thing i would do is throw a kit into the carb and see what that does, the accel pump is shot

but like Cousin Vinny says don't forget the 1st step

and check the stat out
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-April-2018 at 3:31PM
600 or 650 should be fine. kinda sounds like timing? hows the vacuum advance routed? ported or direct vacuum?
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74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE
74 VETTE CUSTOM
90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED
77 CELICA CUSTOM
75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED
79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED
75 VEGA V6 5 SPD
70 CHEV C10 P/U
68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GoldFinger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-April-2018 at 3:38PM
I believe it's direct vacuum on the distributor, is that what you're referring to?

Originally posted by californiajohnny californiajohnny wrote:

600 or 650 should be fine. kinda sounds like timing? hows the vacuum advance routed? ported or direct vacuum?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GoldFinger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-April-2018 at 3:39PM
Yep, I will check the thermostat out, supposed to be raining the next few days so I'm out of luck at the moment.

Originally posted by Rockatansky Rockatansky wrote:

first thing i would do is throw a kit into the carb and see what that does, the accel pump is shot

but like Cousin Vinny says don't forget the 1st step

and check the stat out
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote russosborne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-April-2018 at 4:38PM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GoldFinger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-April-2018 at 8:14AM
So I got the plugs back to .35. Still as stubborn starting, I know do the carburetor issues, it was still rather cold natured. However after doing some carb adjustments after the engine warmed up it sounded really good! Doesn't cut off in reverse anymore, but now it tends to want to cut off when I put it in Drive unless I put my foot on the gas in time before it shuts off, any ideas?
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