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351 Cleveland Starter Suggestions

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GoldFinger View Drop Down
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    Posted: 23-December-2015 at 3:42PM
Hello,
So I want to replace the starter on my 351 Cleveland. Is as a strong running 2v headed engine, with the original exhaust manifolds as of right now. I hope in the next month or two to go with headers. can anyone suggest a good starter? I'm really not looking to do a whole bunch of modifying, I just want a good starter maybe a little smaller than what I have, any suggestions would be appreciated, Thanks!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aquartlow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-December-2015 at 1:27AM
Definitely go with a PMGR(Permanent Magnet Gear Reduction) starter. Just for reference, this is the difference between a "regular" and PMGR Ford 460 starter:
 
Not entirely positive, since I deal with big blocks more than small blocks, but I believe a factory PMGR from a 90's Mustang 5.0 will directly fit(at least this is what I have heard/read). I will tell you that once you install a PMGR, you won't go back to the "regular" type of starter due to starting power and way more room for exhaust/headers. Good luck.
www.supermotors.net/22468
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-December-2015 at 1:39AM
don't forget there's a minor wiring change for the new style starter Big smile
 
I think I'd like to run a new longer positive battery cable straight to the solenoid rather than feed the starter through stacking the cables on the front side of the original fender solenoid
 
then feed the fender solenoid with a jumper of the battery terminal clamp bolt or a dedicated whip built into the positive cable
 
and of course run the S terminal down to the mini-starter solenoid also


Edited by Rockatansky - 24-December-2015 at 2:02AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aquartlow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-December-2015 at 2:13AM
Originally posted by Rockatansky Rockatansky wrote:

don't forget there's a minor wiring change for the new style starter Big smile
 
 
 Yes, I did leave that "little" detail out. In my defense I said it would "directly fit", I never said it would actually work LOL. It surely wouldn't without the wiring change!
 
All kidding aside the PMGR starter is a fairly cheap upgrade that really delivers "bang for the buck" results.
www.supermotors.net/22468
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mach1000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-December-2015 at 4:06AM
Watch out if you have headers. I had a clearance problem with a slick small starter that wouldn't fit with headers. The stock one had no issues to the small one was returned to Summit Racing.

Mach1000
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GoldFinger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-December-2015 at 11:23AM
Originally posted by Rockatansky Rockatansky wrote:


don't forget there's a minor wiring change for the new style starter Big smile
<div abp="783"> <div abp="784">I think I'd like to run a new longer positive battery cable straight to the solenoid rather than feed the starter through stacking the cables on the front side of the original fender solenoid<div abp="785"> <div abp="786">then feed the fender solenoid with a jumper of the battery terminal clamp bolt or a dedicated whip built into the positive cable<div abp="786"> <div abp="786">and of course run the S terminal down to the mini-starter solenoid also


So what do I really need to change or do?..I'm not really strong with wiring.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aquartlow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-December-2015 at 11:45AM
Here is a simple diagram for the wiring change, though the solenoid design is different, it works the same way as your "typical" 70's Ford fender mounted starter solenoid.
MiniStarter .jpg; &amp;#10;517 x 634 (@78%)
 
1st remove the (+) battery cable from the battery top post to avoid sparks or worse. Now remove the large gauge original starter wire from the stud facing the firewall and re-install it on the battery side of the solenoid along with the battery cable. The smaller gauge "trigger" wire that engages the starter or sends a signal that tells the starter to engage/spin, attaches to the stud facing the firewall. The original Green/red stripe wire is retained on the "S" terminal of the fender mounted solenoid. Re-install the battery cable to the battery post and enjoy much easier starts. Hope this helps.
www.supermotors.net/22468
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-December-2015 at 12:11PM
i just have to throw in my 2 cents here...isn't it funny how a chevy designed starter is better, just like the gm HEI dist. that everyone bad mouths Shocked haha take that haters LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aquartlow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-December-2015 at 12:59PM
Too bad it took GM so long to figure out how to do away with shimming their starters Wink, I really hated the GM designed copy of the 70's 460 starter, although nothing that a few swings of a hammer and few cuss words wouldn't fix LOL. I always thought Chrysler came out with the gear reduction starter first.
www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires.

No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t.

Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-December-2015 at 4:21PM
the only issue i've ever seen about having to shim the starters was if the block or starter nose cone was surfaced!
 i think Chrysler did use the reduction gear starters first, and they sucked IMO, no mistaken the sound of one of those, but what i hate is you're watching a movie and they dub in the Chrysler starter sound on a ford or GM, really !!???ConfusedThumbs Down
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77 CELICA CUSTOM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lynchster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-January-2016 at 8:29PM
Originally posted by californiajohnny californiajohnny wrote:

but what i hate is you're watching a movie and they dub in the Chrysler starter sound on a ford or GM, really !!???ConfusedThumbs Down

The end of the "Gone in 60 Seconds" remake. LOL 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-January-2016 at 8:57PM
Originally posted by lynchster lynchster wrote:

Originally posted by californiajohnny californiajohnny wrote:

but what i hate is you're watching a movie and they dub in the Chrysler starter sound on a ford or GM, really !!???ConfusedThumbs Down

The end of the "Gone in 60 Seconds" remake. LOL 
EXACTLY!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GoldFinger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-January-2016 at 5:04AM
Ha!
Well I remembered that there is an OE coil on the car right now. I just got a petronix coil to go with the Igniter that's been installed. I want to see if that makes a difference before changing the starter out..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eliteman76 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-January-2016 at 2:07PM
I went with a starter for an '88 Bronco with a 5.8 and 5 speed. Works great. My car is a 4 speed however, so the nose is a bit shorter.

Edited by Eliteman76 - 10-January-2016 at 2:17PM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-January-2016 at 12:30AM
and the register (big circle hole that the starter fits into) is a different size!
here's a run-down on the variations of Ford starters 
http://www.network54.com/Forum/136503/message/1200873076/starter+info+from+RobbMc
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote russosborne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-May-2016 at 5:55PM
Does anyone have any experience with these?
http://www.dbelectrical.com/p-9936-ford-mini-pmgr-racing-starter-302-351-higher-torque-3205-sfd0001.aspx
Price seems way low for a quality part, but I can be convinced otherwise.
thanks,
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aquartlow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-May-2016 at 12:03AM
Originally posted by russosborne russosborne wrote:

Does anyone have any experience with these?
http://www.dbelectrical.com/p-9936-ford-mini-pmgr-racing-starter-302-351-higher-torque-3205-sfd0001.aspx
Price seems way low for a quality part, but I can be convinced otherwise.
thanks,
russ
 
Russ,
 The PMGR starter I pictured above is a DB Electrical starter, albeit for a 460. I had issues with 3 different Db starters. had to send each back, but I will say DB was quick to get the starts back and the return process was relatively easy. The issue with all of them was that after a week or two they would all start grinding the flexplate/flywheel during the starting process, I picked up a used PMGR factory starter for a '94 F350 w/460 auto and it never gave me any grinding issues. The returned to me DB starter sat on my shelf for over a year until the used factory starter started to get a little slower at turning over(it was 20+ years old). I looked at the two starters side by side and I found that the DB unit's Bendix teeth weren't chamfered (like the factory Motorcraft Bendix) to allow a smoother engagement onto the flexplate, I swapped the factory Bendix into the DB starter (it was a direct fit)and it hasn't given me any grinding issues since I installed it 8 months ago. The DB 302/351 starter may not have this issue, but just wanted to give you a "heads-up" of what I found. Good luck.
www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires.

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Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote russosborne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-May-2016 at 4:38AM
Thanks, that is good information.
For the price it may be worth the risk,
I just am worried about being stranded
But at least from your experience
that isn't a concern.
Russ
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aquartlow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-May-2016 at 6:31AM
Russ,
 It never failed to start, just embarrassing when you have a guy or two say how nice your ride is then attempt to start and hear the SCREETCH/GRINDING, kinda takes the smiles off your and their faces. I would purchase another JY Motorcraft PMGR starter in a heartbeat, just a hit and miss deal when I am out "pickin' ", you may be surprised how much plastic/nylon parts make up the internals of these starters, factory or not. Good luck with either choice, the PMGR's are a definite upgrade in my book.
www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires.

No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t.

Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote russosborne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-May-2016 at 6:48AM
Thanks.

I am a tad leery about these since it seems you have to have the starter cable always hot. That isn't a good thing. I had a 70 GTO that the cable shorted out on me on the freeway and started a fire. I had to scoop up dirt from the side of the road to put it out.

And i have also had problems in the distant past with a starter with an internal short. That would kill a battery very quickly with this setup.

I am trying to figure out why you can't still just use the start side of the Ford solenoid to feed the starter and it's solenoid. I like the idea of the starter design enough to consider using it.


I really don't like always hot starter cables, to repeat myself. Thumbs Down

Russ
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chris E Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-June-2016 at 8:06AM
Just replaced the old starter with a pmgr starter on ole blue!!!! could not be happier with it. Thanks for posting the diagram todd. never going back to the old starter.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aquartlow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-June-2016 at 10:06AM
Glad to hear you are as happy with your PMGR starter as I was with mine, it's one of those mods where you question yourself as to "why didn't I do this sooner". Also happy the diagram was helpful toward your install.
www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires.

No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t.

Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone.
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