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351c 2v builds, whats worked for yall

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andyjman83 View Drop Down
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    Posted: 09-January-2017 at 8:36PM

Hey guys,

Well, i finally saved up cash, so im going to start my engine build for my 72 ranchero gt, c4 auto. Next weekend the tired 351c 2v with open chambered heads is gonna come out and get torn down.

My question is... what kind of power have yall made with 2v open chambered heads. I know that i can get a set of aussie 2v heads, but id really like to use what i have. Theres a good machine shop not too far from me that will install new valves, do porting, do my block work and whatever else i need so im good on that.

What combos have worked for you? Im looking for somewhere between 400 and 450 hp to move this heavy pig of a car.

I had considered doing a 418 clevor, or a big block, but im going to stick with the 351 due to having all the stuff to make it work already in the car.

Thanks guys
Andy

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote andyjman83 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-January-2017 at 9:00PM
The engine thats in there is kind of a frankenstein, but it does have an edelbrock performer manifold, msd distributor,msd 6al. If i need to go to 4v heads i would but i havent been able to track down an affordable set, and id love to see what folks have done with 2v setups.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eliteman76 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-January-2017 at 8:17AM
Network 54 had a really good 335 series forum.

I'm no expert but always build as a package and true purpose. Nothing wrong with 2v heads for the street. Just get them worked on. New seats, go with good valves. I went with NOS pedestal 4v rockers with steel fulcrums on my 71 2v, until i can afford to build my 400 based stroker. 

Basics are get the carb, intake, rear gearing and tire size along with how you plan on using the car.

I'd go for a solid package for the street and not try to build some all all drag machine so it's got a decent service like and not il tempered, especially if running power brakes, AC, power steering, etc.

Sounds like the ignition is decent, and ok intake. 

Just make sure the engine builder has a ok history with the 335 series. Some shops are so Chevy orientated they don't know what the heck to do when building a C.
Other things.
Get the lifter bores bushed, fixes the top end oiling issues simply and cheaply the right way. Standard volume oil pump is all the is needed. 
Invest in a Rob MC fuel pump and regulator and fuel filters.

Carb choice is on the builder and application. C's tend to like to drink fuel and not sip. I know my car is highway gears and undercarbed but been that way for a long time and does OK but she needs at least a 625-650 if not more. Deep gears, 750CFM carb but once again discuss this stuff with your engine guy.

Other things...on your trans, invest in a input pump seal while stuff it apart. Maybe freshen the trans or at least degrease and repaint and fresh pan gasket and tailshaft seal and new u-joints.
New engine mounts as well.

Fan on engine? Clutch fan, consider replacement of the fan clutch if it has one.

Go over the wiring harness in the engine bay and clean up, new looming and tape.
Clean up the engine bay while out of the car. Power wash it at a car wash, degrease it and maybe buy some single stage paint and clean up stuff and spray so it's clean and tidy.

Other stuff...How's the condition of the brake lines on the frame under the engine? Suspension bushings? Draglink and tie rods, steering box OK and not loose and leaking?

While the engine is out, a lot easier to access this stuff. 
Andrew
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote andyjman83 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-January-2017 at 1:28PM
Thanks for the info, I definitely plan on going over everything once the engines out, because as you said, itll be alot easier to access. I have a good machine shop thatll be doing the machine work, and hes pretty versed in clevelands. I will be doing the assembly. I kind of started backwards when i learned about engines. I started on imports when I was 18, then I Started to work on and build modular ford v8 engines with SOHC or DOHC, and then i started to build diesels. My 2005 f350 6.0 diesel puts down about 602 HP and around 1203 torque, so Im still learning all the ins and outs of clevelands. They are awesome little engines and I really like the idea of having something different under the hood. I could toss in a windsor, but those are common place and boring, so Im not gonna do that. Ive had my eye on this particular ranchero since I was 16 and I won my first drag race in it when my friend let me drive it, so when i finally was able to grab it, I swooped it up and now its living safely in my garage, where its dry and out of the elements. 

Im kind of on the fence about keeping the 2v or trying to dig up a set of 4v heads. I found a set of bare4v CC heads on craigslist for about 250, and I figure thats not a bad deal since im going to have to have my 2v heads fully gone thru anyway, that I could probably do the 4vs for the same price and later down the road if I ever stroke it or what not, that Id have all the flow I could use, I do know that id have to change some other things, but those 4v heads are freaking awesome. The only thing that stops me from jumping on a set of them is the rpm at which they are useful on a 351 cubic inch engine.

What are your thoughts.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote andyjman83 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-January-2017 at 2:02PM
also, if anyones run em, how much better are the aussie 2v heads vs the US ones? I found a place online that sells em pretty cheap.

Andy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrSmog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-January-2017 at 3:13PM
what do you call pretty cheap on those aussie heads and are they re-done or bare or? I guess on the 351c build up, all depends what you want to do and what you expect. IMo these heavier Torinos need low rpm Tq to really work, unless you gear them pretty low to get em movin. i been goin through the same thing as you. I may slap together a budget build with the stock bottom end, aussie heads and a small cam. Then see how I like that and then build up a serious motor. heres a link to a lot of good info

http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5650045562/m/319104265
Past 1974 Ranchero GT Q code

Present 1973 Q code formal roof base model Torino with ralleye equpiment package and 4spd.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote andyjman83 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-January-2017 at 3:18PM
found em for about 575 for 2 of em, they are good bare cores, but i figure that ill have to spend just as much to get my US 2v heads ported and polished. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote andyjman83 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-January-2017 at 3:22PM
You are right though, this will need quite a bit of torque to get the big pig movin. The 2vs would be good for that. I just talked to the previous owner, and he told me that his machine shop "wedged" the heads when it was put together years ago which made no sense to me, because wedge is a combustion chamber shape and not something you can machine in, so I asked him what he meant and he said that they were shaved down to increase compression, which wont hurt lol.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrSmog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-January-2017 at 4:33PM
If you plan a complete rebuild, and if your stock open chamber 2v heads check out to be ok, then just get a set of pistons to get the compression up to 9.5-1 or so. That should wake the bottom end up on a 2v, add a cam, stall converter and some gear. from what I have looked into, 350-400 hp out of a 351 2v really isn't that hard to do.  as far as 2v heads, i don't think there is any difference in flow or valves size on any of them, just the aussie heads got the small chambers.
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Present 1973 Q code formal roof base model Torino with ralleye equpiment package and 4spd.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-January-2017 at 5:23PM
wedged the heads? i'm guessing that they shaved the heads at a different angle? which would require machining the intake to match!
JOHN
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lynchster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-January-2017 at 5:32PM
I just had my 4V built but I did a lot of reading before I started spending.

George Pence / Pantera Guy

http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5650045562/m/319104265

Dan Jones

http://351c.net/archive/parts/Parts%20Catalog/Oil%20System%20topics/basicsclevelandbuilding.pdf

Crankshaft Coalition / Camshaft selection and Compression ratio

http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/wiki/How_to_choose_a_camshaft

http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/wiki/Cam_and_compression_ratio_compatibility

An article about Dynamic Compression

http://members.uia.net/pkelley2/DynamicCR.html

Hope it helps.

Edited by lynchster - 10-January-2017 at 5:32PM
Chuck
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote andyjman83 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-January-2017 at 5:58PM
thats a ton of great info, ive previously read most of em, but a few are new. Im really looking forward to getting this thing put together.

m going to build this motor now, but at some point in the not too distant future, im going to rescue the original numbers matching block from the PO, and have it gone thru. Unfortunately it was starved of oil and seized and the PO told me that at least 1 of the bores needs to be sleeved. With that engine i plan on building a stroker, either a 393 or a 408, and running some nice old school 4v iron heads.

I found a nice set of 4v bare heads locally for about 250 so I think ill pick em up and save em for the stroker build, they are getting hard to come by.


Sorry for all the questions, and thanks for the help.

Andy


Edited by andyjman83 - 10-January-2017 at 7:15PM
1972 Ranchero GT 351C
2005 F350 4x4 6.0
1998 Mercury mountaineer 5.0 V8
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-January-2017 at 3:50PM
Originally posted by Eliteman76 Eliteman76 wrote:

Network 54 had a really good 335 series forum.
 
 
that's the old forum, since moved to www.351C.net
 
definitely read Sticky #3
 
the 4V heads have gotten such a bashing over the last 40+ years that there's almost no truth left , they don't need rpm to work but they do take over where 2V's are done. 2V's can never run through the midrange & top end like 4V's will. with George's tips on cam selection you can build a 4V that won't be a dog / rpm queen ... i think Ilyes has a G.Pence grind in his car?
 
there's a couple of guys making upwards of 500hp with 2V heads but it's not the norm, most builds top around 425hp if the combo can get it there ...
nothing to sneeze at either Beer


Edited by Rockatansky - 12-January-2017 at 3:54PM
72 GT Ute
   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote andyjman83 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-January-2017 at 9:12PM
Thanks for all the info guys. Im only 33 but i love old school iron. Ive asked similar questions on other message boards and the only answers i get is usually, stick aluminum heads on there because the 2v heads are boat anchors, and the 4v heads arent much better. Well thats all well and good if you have that kinda coin, but id rather rock some old style heads, because theres a reason these engines are still known for being some of the most powerful production engines ever produced and having efficiencies that rival some of todays modern engines.
I had a jet boat a few years back with a big block chevy 454 that i built, and i used iron heads on it with good valve train and good hardware. The last time i took it out, i beat 3 out of 4 of my friends, 2 had aluminum heads and they were astounded at how i was able to hit 83 mph and hold 7200 rpms for 15 mins straight.

I told em its all in the detroit iron.

Sorry for my long winded post. Id rather spend my money on the parts of the car that are gonna be seen than some shiny underhood aluminum bling thats still only comparable flow wise with parts that were made over 40 years ago lol.

Not knocking the guys who swear by alum heads but i love some good flowing iron.

Andy

Edited by andyjman83 - 12-January-2017 at 9:29PM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-January-2017 at 3:52PM
here's a link to the old archive forum http://www.network54.com/Forum/119419
and a boat thread on the new forum http://351c.net/board/index.php?/topic/4456-how-fast-will-a-cleveland-float/#comment-14861
more pitch, load the screw! ... the Sacrifice boat will run 130mph. The engine not strictly Cleveland. It is a Roush-Yates 6 liter SVO Windsor block with Yates D3 heads and like the NASCAR engines will rev over 9000 rpm https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPwOyTjL4XQ
72 GT Ute
   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote andyjman83 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-January-2017 at 4:23PM
Thats freaking awesome. About 2 years ago i had a friend who had a pair of the d3 roush yates heads for a cleveland he was selling. Why i wasnt smart enough to jump on it at the time ill never figure out lol.
1972 Ranchero GT 351C
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