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400 build up and flexplate question

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The Torino Kid View Drop Down
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    Posted: 08-December-2018 at 7:56PM
Hello all,

I have a rebuilt 400 030" with sealed powered 427NP-030 pistons,chrome moly rings,comp cam extreme energy 268 series timing chain/lifter/springs/retainers on D5AE-A2A (74.5 CC) rebuilt heads with perma-torque fel-pro head gaskets.I don't how much the deck or heads have been killed since I bought off of someone.It will have a Holley Street Dominator intake (300-20) with a 650cfm Holley carb and 1" spacer. Hooker Super Comp headers and 2-1/2" exhaust with a cross over pipe. Mallory Unilite dizzy(for now) Accel Coil.

 I'm having trouble figuring out with the compression ratio is with this combination? I'm thinking about 8.8:1? Im hoping 300-350hp about at the crank?

Also

So the 73GTS didn't come with the original drive train when I purchased it. It came with the following

1)351M
2)Cast iron body,aluminum bell housing and tail shaft FMX tranny
3)2.75 rear open 9"

I am need to purchase a flexplate for the engine. I know it's a 28oz external balance, but all the listings are saying "with aluminum case transmission (ie: C6)" pioneer lists the FRA-201 which is a 164 tooth style.

 So will it be an issue to use this part number on a cast iron case FMX tranny?

thank you looking and your input! Cheers~
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Bird Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-December-2018 at 3:52AM
Did the 351M have a flexplate? Should be the same.
The above post should be read in a "Grumpy Old Man" voice.
Almost forgot: "Get off my lawn!!!"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-December-2018 at 4:46AM
 vince could shed some light on this... he went through some issues with his 400 flex

http://forum.grantorinosport.org/engine-and-trans-build-engine-compartment-detail_topic16524_page7.html
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Torino Kid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-December-2018 at 5:31AM
Originally posted by Big Bird Big Bird wrote:

Did the 351M have a flexplate? Should be the same.


it has one but the motor that is still the car and I'm driving it until I'm ready to pull it out. I'm reading through the aftermarket that the 351M/400 uses the same flexplate. I'm just concerned about vibration/balance issues. My current in car set up shakes but it could a number of things not addressed atm.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Torino Kid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-December-2018 at 5:32AM
Originally posted by californiajohnny californiajohnny wrote:

 vince could shed some light on this... he went through some issues with his 400 flex

http://forum.grantorinosport.org/engine-and-trans-build-engine-compartment-detail_topic16524_page7.html


ok I'll check it out, thank youl Clap
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-December-2018 at 2:53PM
I just went though looking at all the flexplates for the 400 along with the other small block Fords.  In my case I though I had a bad flexplate,  as my clearances were all wrong.  It just turned out my TC wasn't seating because my pump was installed backwards.  Once that was fixed, a FRA-201 worked fine with a 400 and a C-6.
 
The C4/FMX uses a different offset than the C6.  Using the FRA-201 with an FMX will result in too little clearance.  There is a 351M/FMX specific flex plate and it is D3AZ 6375-A.  I can't find an aftermarket cross reference to this, but Mac's has one for a decent price here:
 
 
Based on my research, a FRA-205 *should* work too.  It is a 28 oz imbalance and has the correct offset for a C4/FMX transmission.  But for whatever reason, there is always a specific flex plate listed for the 351M/400 alone, even though they have the same imbalance.  So, for example. a 351W with a C6 should use the same flywheel as a 400 with a C6.  Same imbalance, same offset, but there are two separate part numbers listed for each application, aftermarket and Ford.  I even compared a OEM 302 C6 flexplate to a 400 C6 and it looked identical, bolted up and fit exactly the same.  So, like I said, a FRA-205 should work, but there may be some other minor difference I am not aware of.
 
What ever you chose to use, just make sure you check the TC clearances as you bolt everything up. 
 
As for your 400, where are you getting the head volume of approx. 75 cc?  It was my understanding that all 400 heads, the D1 and D5 castings, were about 78 ccs?  Also, from what I have read, those rebuilder pistons will produce about 8:1 compression at best, maybe even less.  Rockatansky might chime in as he'll know more.  But the bottom line is these pistons produce really low compression.
 
If the engine is out of the car, it might be worth your effort to upgrade the pistons.  TMI has 9.3:1 hypereutectic pistons that are designed to work will with the open chamber heads.  The also drastically reduce the excessive deck clearances of the OEM/rebuilder style pistons.  You other option would be to run 351C pistons, but they'd have to be bushed to would with the 400 rods.
 
If you get some decent pistons in there, with that cam, this will be a strong engine.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Torino Kid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-December-2018 at 7:05PM
Originally posted by 72FordGTS 72FordGTS wrote:

I just went though looking at all the flexplates for the 400 along with the other small block Fords.  In my case I though I had a bad flexplate,  as my clearances were all wrong.  It just turned out my TC wasn't seating because my pump was installed backwards.  Once that was fixed, a FRA-201 worked fine with a 400 and a C-6.
 
The C4/FMX uses a different offset than the C6.  Using the FRA-201 with an FMX will result in too little clearance.  There is a 351M/FMX specific flex plate and it is D3AZ 6375-A.  I can't find an aftermarket cross reference to this, but Mac's has one for a decent price here:
 
 
Based on my research, a FRA-205 *should* work too.  It is a 28 oz imbalance and has the correct offset for a C4/FMX transmission.  But for whatever reason, there is always a specific flex plate listed for the 351M/400 alone, even though they have the same imbalance.  So, for example. a 351W with a C6 should use the same flywheel as a 400 with a C6.  Same imbalance, same offset, but there are two separate part numbers listed for each application, aftermarket and Ford.  I even compared a OEM 302 C6 flexplate to a 400 C6 and it looked identical, bolted up and fit exactly the same.  So, like I said, a FRA-205 should work, but there may be some other minor difference I am not aware of.
 
What ever you chose to use, just make sure you check the TC clearances as you bolt everything up. 
 
As for your 400, where are you getting the head volume of approx. 75 cc?  It was my understanding that all 400 heads, the D1 and D5 castings, were about 78 ccs?  Also, from what I have read, those rebuilder pistons will produce about 8:1 compression at best, maybe even less.  Rockatansky might chime in as he'll know more.  But the bottom line is these pistons produce really low compression.
 
If the engine is out of the car, it might be worth your effort to upgrade the pistons.  TMI has 9.3:1 hypereutectic pistons that are designed to work will with the open chamber heads.  The also drastically reduce the excessive deck clearances of the OEM/rebuilder style pistons.  You other option would be to run 351C pistons, but they'd have to be bushed to would with the 400 rods.
 
If you get some decent pistons in there, with that cam, this will be a strong engine.


according to the factory part number D1AZ 6375-A (current replacement part number) works on all 351M/400 cars and trucks. (per Bubbas 351M/400 website)

I found part numbers through Pioneer FRA-20, FRA-202 and FRA-205
ATP brand Z-106 http://atpautomotive.com/flexplate-z-106

the 351M Heads cc specs I got also from Bubbas website. Maybe Ill put some Aussie heads on it? Ouch
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-December-2018 at 1:03PM
Bubba's info is inaccurate then.  My numbers are from the Ford Master Parts catalog.  D1AZ 6375-A is the correct flexplate for a 351M or 400 with a C6 transmission.  Otherwise, the D3Az 6375-A is for those using the FMX transmission.  The FMX used the same converter vs bell housing clearance as a C4, which places the converter mounting pads closer to the engine. So a the C4/FMX flexplates have mounting pads closer to the engine block to compensate for this. You could try a FRA 201 style plate, but I doubt your clearances will be in spec.  I'd just order the one from Macs to be on the safe side.  It's only $50.
 
 
 
I think you're better off to replace the pistons than the heads.  TMI just got a shipment of new pistons.  Call him up and leave a message and he will call you back.  The heads you have on there are fine for your build.  Aussie heads are hard to find, they don't have the best flow numbers and you still have a pistons that have terrible deck clearance, which can lead to detonation problems.  I think you'll have a 350+ hp engine with the TMI pistons, and boatloads of torque.
 

Edited by 72FordGTS - 10-December-2018 at 1:04PM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Bird Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-December-2018 at 3:12PM
It reads like he wants to use the FMX that came with the 351M on the 400.
If that is the case, then the 351M 'plate is the correct one to use.
The above post should be read in a "Grumpy Old Man" voice.
Almost forgot: "Get off my lawn!!!"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-December-2018 at 3:43PM
7.9:1 it's on crutches from the start


power & efficiency start with the internal engine

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Torino Kid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-December-2018 at 4:02PM
Originally posted by 72FordGTS 72FordGTS wrote:

Bubba's info is inaccurate then.  My numbers are from the Ford Master Parts catalog.  D1AZ 6375-A is the correct flexplate for a 351M or 400 with a C6 transmission.  Otherwise, the D3Az 6375-A is for those using the FMX transmission.  The FMX used the same converter vs bell housing clearance as a C4, which places the converter mounting pads closer to the engine. So a the C4/FMX flexplates have mounting pads closer to the engine block to compensate for this. You could try a FRA 201 style plate, but I doubt your clearances will be in spec.  I'd just order the one from Macs to be on the safe side.  It's only $50.
 
 
 
I think you're better off to replace the pistons than the heads.  TMI just got a shipment of new pistons.  Call him up and leave a message and he will call you back.  The heads you have on there are fine for your build.  Aussie heads are hard to find, they don't have the best flow numbers and you still have a pistons that have terrible deck clearance, which can lead to detonation problems.  I think you'll have a 350+ hp engine with the TMI pistons, and boatloads of torque.
 


I would like to go that route, but it would be a pain to take it all apart and have it re-balanced and re-assemble it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Torino Kid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-December-2018 at 4:03PM
Originally posted by Big Bird Big Bird wrote:

It reads like he wants to use the FMX that came with the 351M on the 400.
If that is the case, then the 351M 'plate is the correct one to use.


I might just go that route if the flywheel ring gear is in good condition.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-December-2018 at 5:01PM
7.9 CR??? Shocked but that would be good for say 5-7? PSI of blower pressure Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-December-2018 at 5:53AM
Yup i'd say it's a good candidate for moderate altitude compensation

Sealed Power 427NP30 Details

Ford Pistons

Features:
  • Cast with FM132 Eutectic Proprietary Alloy


  • eutectic alloy is old school cast, slightly better than hypereutectic for durability but still by no means a performance rated piston. hyper-U has more silicon content causing them t be brittle and expand less than lower silicon eutectic alloy. 2618 is the old school forged alloy, relatively soft durable as Censored and expands like crazy. hi-po applications need enough bore clearance that they'll slap until they warm up ... 4032 is the low expansion darling of the forged piston world, actually a forged hyper alloy

    https://www.hotrod.com/articles/narrowing-your-piston-choices/
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    Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Torino Kid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-December-2018 at 6:28AM
    I found a completely rebuilt 302c/351c aussie heads with new valves,seats,guides and springs. a few hours from me. they are really clean and never ran. So ill probably pick these up and bolt them on and sell the 351M rebuilt heads. Hopefully that will help the low compression issue. Clap
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    Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Torino Kid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-December-2018 at 6:28AM
    Originally posted by Rockatansky Rockatansky wrote:

    Yup i'd say it's a good candidate for moderate altitude compensation

    Sealed Power 427NP30 Details

    Ford Pistons

    Features:
  • Cast with FM132 Eutectic Proprietary Alloy


  • eutectic alloy is old school cast, slightly better than hypereutectic for durability but still by no means a performance rated piston. hyper-U has more silicon content causing them t be brittle and expand less than lower silicon eutectic alloy. 2618 is the old school forged alloy, relatively soft durable as Censored and expands like crazy. hi-po applications need enough bore clearance that they'll slap until they warm up ... 4032 is the low expansion darling of the forged piston world, actually a forged hyper alloy

    https://www.hotrod.com/articles/narrowing-your-piston-choices/


    great info, thank you! Clap
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    Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-December-2018 at 12:07PM

    Nice find on the Aussie heads.  Make sure they are for the 302C not the 351C though.  The 302C heads will have the small 58cc closed combustion chambers.  The 351C heads made down under were all open chamber.

    With those new heads you should be at about 9.4-9.5:1 compression. So your engine should make really good power with that cam.  You sure it's an XE268 and not a XE262?  The only one that's been made is the XE262 in the past 5 or 6 years that I have been checking.
     
    The only thing you may have to worry about is detonation.  Those stock pistons style are pretty far down in the hole, which can cause this problem. Maybe Rock can offer more input on that issue.  
     
    TMI even has new pistons for Aussie headed 400's too.  It yields about the same compression ration as stock pistons, but it has far better deck clearances to eliminate the detonation issues.
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    Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Torino Kid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-December-2018 at 5:59PM


     here are some pics. Theyre 302c heads.
     


    Edited by The Torino Kid - 11-December-2018 at 6:02PM
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    Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Torino Kid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-December-2018 at 6:11PM
    Originally posted by 72FordGTS 72FordGTS wrote:

    Nice find on the Aussie heads.  Make sure they are for the 302C not the 351C though.  The 302C heads will have the small 58cc closed combustion chambers.  The 351C heads made down under were all open chamber.

    With those new heads you should be at about 9.4-9.5:1 compression. So your engine should make really good power with that cam.  You sure it's an XE268 and not a XE262?  The only one that's been made is the XE262 in the past 5 or 6 years that I have been checking.
     
    The only thing you may have to worry about is detonation.  Those stock pistons style are pretty far down in the hole, which can cause this problem. Maybe Rock can offer more input on that issue.  
     
    TMI even has new pistons for Aussie headed 400's too.  It yields about the same compression ration as stock pistons, but it has far better deck clearances to eliminate the detonation issues.


    I stand corrected, it is the 262 extreme energy cam. Ill have to be careful on the timing and advance curve once i get it going. Thank you for insight. 😎
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    Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-December-2018 at 3:11PM
    with more guessing than i usually need to do, i'm coming up with 9.75:1 static CR

    and right on the ragged edge of pump premium with 8.07:1 DCR

    Yes with a CH of 1.630" IIRC the pistons are down in the hole, i guesstimated .080" for the calcs but it could be more? more is better for DCR and octane requirement. elevation will also relieve the squeeze, how far are you above sea level?

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    Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Torino Kid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-December-2018 at 4:53PM
    Originally posted by Rockatansky Rockatansky wrote:

    with more guessing than i usually need to do, i'm coming up with 9.75:1 static CR

    and right on the ragged edge of pump premium with 8.07:1 DCR

    Yes with a CH of 1.630" IIRC the pistons are down in the hole, i guesstimated .080" for the calcs but it could be more? more is better for DCR and octane requirement. elevation will also relieve the squeeze, how far are you above sea level?



    125' feet above sea level.
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    Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-December-2018 at 3:43AM
    not what i'd call elevation. for a worst case scenario i'd look at what it's doing at -500' (below sea level) for margin. the difference may not be enough to change the build but good to know where your at vs the ping monster. like i said up above too many swags IMO, i cant find a dish volume for the 427NP pistons. they give the dish dimensions easy enough to calc & add maybe 2cc's for the reliefs for total volume
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    Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Torino Kid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-December-2018 at 3:41AM
    so what are you all running for hamrmonic dampeners? I see that dorman makes a replacement and performance version as well? Any suggestions?
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    Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-December-2018 at 4:59AM
    if you have an original 400 balancer you should look at having it rebuilt,


    real 400 balancers are heavier than the 351M unit that superseded the original part number
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    Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Torino Kid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-December-2018 at 5:06AM
    Originally posted by Rockatansky Rockatansky wrote:

    if you have an original 400 balancer you should look at having it rebuilt,


    real 400 balancers are heavier than the 351M unit that superseded the original part number


    unfortunately the new motor didn't come with one and the engine in the vehicle is a small diameter 351m style...Cry
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    Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-December-2018 at 12:53PM
    I got a new balancer through Tim Meyer for my engine. It was an engine Pro balancer, equivalent to Pioneer DA3512.  It appeared to be identical for the most part to my OEM unit.  Check Rockauto, they have a bunch listed if your search '72 Torino with 400.  
    Vince

    1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car
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    Rockatansky View Drop Down
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    Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-December-2018 at 1:56PM
    72 GT Ute
       
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    The Torino Kid View Drop Down
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    Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Torino Kid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-January-2019 at 12:40AM
    Originally posted by Rockatansky Rockatansky wrote:

    Pioneer lists a DA3512HD




    I picked up this unit the other day, thank you sir.Clap
    1973 Gran Torino Sport CJ 351

    'Q' code 63R body
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