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72 GTS 351C 4v OC Engine Rebuild

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Danno View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Danno Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: 72 GTS 351C 4v OC Engine Rebuild
    Posted: 03-February-2017 at 4:58AM
I'm ashamed I haven't been on the site for so long, looks like I missed out on a lot of great conversations.  Thought I would get back into by creating a post on the rebuild of my 351C.
 
Started the project 2 weeks ago with my 88 year old father-in-law.  Both of us have never pulled an engine and done a rebuild, and we have always wanted to attempt it.  I'll summarize where we stand now and follow up with pictures and specifics.
 
We pulled and disassembled.  Confirmed it is a 4v OC and the heads have not been machined.  Measured cc volume right around 75cc.  Biggest surprise was that there were a set of TRW .030" pistons sitting in there, so I am not the first lover.  I'd have to say who ever was in there before did below average work, for example, #2 main cap was on backwards with the arrow pointing to the rear of the block.  Speaking of block...4 bolt mains!
 
We delivered the block and heads to machinist.  Objective is about 9.5 static CR, driveable street/strip machine, built to last.  Basic plan is to bore cyl to whatever they need to clean them up, hoping that won't exceed 40, which I don't think it will.  Align bore the main saddles.  Mill both the deck and heads just enough so when combined with the right flat top piston, we hit 9.5 CR.  Nice 3 angle valve job, sticking with hydraulic flat tappet technology non-adjustable pedestal mount rockers.  Get a right sized cam, all new bearings, timing chain, intake (Edel Perf Air Gap), distributor, balancer, FPA headers and a new 650-750 carb.
 
Not going to believe this, just as I am writing this post, my wife calls me and says the machine shop wants you to call them.  Block won't clean up at 40.  Apparently the back 2 cylinders had some water sitting in them for a length of time and the only way to get past that damage is to either sleeve the cylinders or take them out to 60.  Machinist recommends 60.  Because I am not building a high HP dragster, he says there is no issue at all and feels very comfortable with it.  I trust him and he does have extensive Cleveland rebuild experience.
 
I can't write anymore right now...feel a little sick to my stomach.  Updates and plenty of pictures coming.
Danno
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Ranchero Fan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ranchero Fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-February-2017 at 10:19AM
Good Luck with it. Hang in there.
Brian   1973 Ford Ranchero Big Block. ''THE OTHER WOMAN''
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-February-2017 at 2:18PM
sounds interesting, keep us updated!
JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE
74 CORVETTE COUPE CUSTOM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-February-2017 at 2:23PM
Sounds like a good build plan.  I though Clevelands were generally only good for 40 over though? If that's the case the sleeving might be as better option for the long run.  Maybe Rockatansky will chime in, he's one of the most knowledgeable about 335 series motors.
Vince

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrSmog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-February-2017 at 3:23PM
I am lookin into a similar build for the pure stock drags class. from what I have "read" anything .30 and over, the block should be sonic checked. I wonder how much the heads/intake will have to be cut to get a static compression of 9.5-1 with the open chambers and flat tops? I thought a small dome piston might be the way to go and might provide a better quench area.
Past 1974 Ranchero GT Q code

Present 1973 Q code formal roof base model Torino with ralleye equpiment package and 4spd.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Danno Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-February-2017 at 10:04AM
We figure about 20-30 thousand total to achieve 9.5. I wanted to stay away from domed, only because I think it will have better chamber efficiency with flats.
Someone else suggested sleeving, but I have no experience with the results of going that way, not to mention I think it,s around $100 per cyl?
Danno
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nuggets Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-February-2017 at 10:23AM
That much head skimming will require the intake manifold to be cut as well. I'd look into buying some decent used closed chamber heads.

As to sleeping you can just sleeve the damaged cylinders. Don't need to do them all
Barnaby

429 powered 73 Stripper.....no comfort, just noise!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrSmog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-February-2017 at 11:59AM
Originally posted by Danno Danno wrote:

We figure about 20-30 thousand total to achieve 9.5. I wanted to stay away from domed, only because I think it will have better chamber efficiency with flats.
Someone else suggested sleeving, but I have no experience with the results of going that way, not to mention I think it,s around $100 per cyl?



I'll see if I can find the article, but I read that since open chamber heads valves are more unshrouded that a small dome was ideal. I have never had a block sleeved, so can't help you with that one at all.
Past 1974 Ranchero GT Q code

Present 1973 Q code formal roof base model Torino with ralleye equpiment package and 4spd.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-February-2017 at 1:06PM
sleeving it shouldn't be an issue, it's done a lot. yes you really only need to sleeve the bad cylinder(s) as long as it's a good reputable shop, that shouldn't be a problem.
JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE
74 CORVETTE COUPE CUSTOM
90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED
77 CELICA CUSTOM
75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED
79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED
75 VEGA V6 5 SPD
70 CHEV C10 P/U
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Danno Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-February-2017 at 1:37AM
what about a new block, like the dart product? For about 2k, could end up with a solid bottom end, 4.0 block, that would certainly support the existing heads and also any future upgrades. Who knows, in 5 years when I retire, I may want to go cray and turn it into a mean streeter and a respectable dragster. Other than cost, any negatives about just getting a new block to build a solid foundation?
Danno
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ilyes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-February-2017 at 1:46AM
I read bad things bout Dart blocks, they are not machined really well and will require some work. If you intend to run it hard later in its life, you will have to consider bushing the lifter bores.
If you don't mind waiting a bit more, Tim Meyer is will soon have blocks for sale, fully prepped and oil mods done to it. The aluminum version will cost about 5-6K, 3-4K for god old iron.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-February-2017 at 4:15AM
start by inspecting that #2 cap 6 ways to Sunday, it's an old racers trick in 'claimer' classes to mess with a cap or 2 in case your engine gets claimed. the claimer will hopefully not catch your trick and re-assemble the engine 'correctly' and it will destroy itself in short order. reversed caps are almost always different enough that they will not work the wrong way, the bearing bores are not perfectly centered in the block and rods enough that the bearing will either not have oil clearance or be completely bound up in interference
the cap may be machined to the block as you found it reversed? and check the connecting rod caps too!
.060" may not be any issue whatsoever if the block has enough cylinder wall thickness, many do but some kinda don't. some will even break through during the bore/hone operation and create a window where the casting is thin. sonic checking can determine how much cylinder wall will be left at the final bore diameter, how much cylinder wall thickness you're comfortable with is up to you
 
sleeving the cylinders that won't clean up or will have insufficient wall thickness is also an option. if done properly the repair is permanent and lasts the life of the block. lots of sleeved engines continue racing under extreme abuse conditions until they experience a catastrophic failure that destroys the block to a point that it can't be repaired
 
Dart blocks are Windsor based and will require you to buy everything related to the block for a Windsor including the cam, timing set, oil pan/pump, timing cover, water pump ... and unless you get a 9.2 deck block you'll need an intake manifold that works with Cleveland heads on a 9.5 deck block. and Yes Dart blocks are not ready to assemble, they can be expensive to prepare on top of purchase price
 
easier to just find a replacement block if all other options wash out, Australian blocks are an option
 
depending upon time frame you might want to wait for a Track Boss block? nearing production it's going to be the strongest block ever made and true 351C as a bonus. not exactly cheap. the more economical cast iron blocks will be coming after the alloy block which means a longer wait
 
good Cleveland blocks are out there if yours is really Dead but after factoring in replacement cost, shipping & machining yours might not look too bad
 
take a slug of pepto & relax, you're not the first guy in the spot you're in & it'll work out
but I'd do the sonic check on your block before making a decision otherwise you own the block after you authorize you guy to bore it leaving paper thin cylinder walls 
72 GT Ute
   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Danno Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-February-2017 at 4:46AM
Thanks Rocket. So I will start with the sonic, how do you interpret the data? What numbers do you say, not worth the risk of boring 60?
I saw a potential donor block on eBay. It is actually same block code as mine except it is 2 bolt. BUT, they claim it is still std bore 4.0 and in great shape.
eBay item 162376390578, MagMustangs out of state of Wash. what do you think of that as donor?
Danno
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-February-2017 at 5:33AM
in regards to getting to your 9.5:1 CR goal, small dome pistons will be far more economical since you're buying pistons anyway, eliminating the cost to mill the heads and intake manifold. small domes won't have any significant (probably none) impact on flame travel or burn efficiency
3cc flat tops make 8.9:1, milling .030" kicks it up to 9.45:1
changing the 3cc valve relief to a 3cc dome gets you right back to 9.45 w/o milling
these DSS pistons make 9.88:1 ... perfect IMO  https://www.summitracing.com/parts/dms-4486x-4060/overview/make/ford
the bottom selection here lets you spec the dome size, a little better deal http://www.tmeyerinc.com/category-s/1877.htm
 
but 1st you need a block to work with to know what your bore diameter will be, .060" reduces the options a lot
 
FWIW i wouldn't choose a hypereutectic piston, go forged 4032 or 2618 alloy


Edited by Rockatansky - 05-February-2017 at 5:35AM
72 GT Ute
   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stanman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-February-2017 at 5:49AM
If you have to replace the block I wouldn't hesitate to use a 2 bolt main. IMO the 4 bolt doesn't add much strength especially in a street car. More bragging rights than anything else. Once the oil pan is on they all look the same.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-February-2017 at 5:55AM
$1125 to you that's a lot of $, 1/2 that would be a better deal. i didn't see any guarantee to be a good usable core, just "No visible cracks or damage." have you checked your local Craigslist? sometimes a guy just wants it gone for $100
 
 
I'd contact Tim Meyer regarding a sourced block before clicking that one, i can't say what his actual price will be but he can supply a ready to assemble block bored to suit his pistons or whatever state of assembly you want / can budget
 
FWIW ebay blocks are priced pretty 'pie in the sky' IMO, I'd sell all mine in a heartbeat for what they're asking LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-February-2017 at 6:10AM
Originally posted by stanman stanman wrote:

I wouldn't hesitate to use a 2 bolt main. IMO the 4 bolt doesn't add much strength especially in a street car. More bragging rights than anything else.   
the extra 4 bolts only add a very small amount of 'strength' holding the crank secure, the power difference between a 2 bolt block and a 4 bolt block shaking the main caps is not much at all. the threaded holes in the block for the extra bolts actually remove valuable material in the block bulkheads and can cause a block failure if that power level is reached & abused over time. i really like what Tim Meyer has done with splayed main caps, start with a 2 bolt block and the outside bolts are angled to the oil pan rails where the webbing is stronger. nice but not necessary for most street /strip builds
 
4 bolt caps *can* be fitted to a 2 bolt block but I'm not sure I'd spend the $ if your block & caps are candidates? *can* because like i said up above the bearing bores are not perfectly centered in the block and every block & set of caps is a little different. sometimes they're close enough that a simple line hone will do the trick but occasionally they're quite a way off and the machining required would cause the engine to need a custom line hone timing set. the caps would also need to be welded up on one side & machined to fit the block ... more $ 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stanman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-February-2017 at 6:24AM
Sorry if off topic but I always thought the 4 bolt block could have been built to compete with GM blocks. In a Chevy I think they actually add strength because they have smaller main bolts.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Danno Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-February-2017 at 6:37AM
Good info. I need to re-read your advice and soak it in. I just got off the phone with that eBay donor out in WA. Nice guy. Asked if he would take to machinist and have it cleaned, magged, and inspected. Yes. For $120 he would do that and if it came back with a neg report, he would refund the $799.
Danno
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-February-2017 at 10:17AM
better than nothing but you'll lose the original shipping, the $120 and the return shipping unless the guy takes your word & says 'just keep it', which i kinda doubt ... that's the way ebay works
 
most likely the block is solid but if a vendor supplies a defective product I'd hope for a full refund, maybe not the original shipping?
 
repairing your block will probably be the most economical / least risk
 
 
 
 
 
the old archive forum (read only) http://www.network54.com/Forum/119419
 
----------------------------
Stan, from what I've seen posted over the years, the strength difference is pertinent at production power levels (~500hp long term) but once you get into modern capabilities the difference the 4 bolts make is just a wiggle while your pee'ing into the wind, and stud girdles are a second wiggle. the vibration & rpm associated with max effort builds are just too much for the caps in the block register design. the actual root cause may be the harmonic balancer / external balance allowing the vibration to dance the caps, cause fretting in the registers & blow out the block main webs. dowelled caps & internal balance are the only chance a stock block has, and then depending upon the tune & power level it may still be a pinless grenade
 
Lyle never made more than 10 runs using this complete lower block, sometimes as few as 3
this is why we're excited about Tim's Track Boss block, also credit to Tod Buttermore
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by Rockatansky - 05-February-2017 at 10:32AM
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