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72 GTS 351C 4v OC Engine Rebuild

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Danno View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Danno Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-September-2017 at 2:39AM

Good morning.  Hoping you can help with some trouble shooting.  So like I posted, I found and fixed an electrical issue.  There was no wire going to the ignition coil from the starter relay “I” terminal.  With that fixed, I now have power to the coil when key is in Start and then when key transitions to Run.  I have not yet replaced the Ignition Switch.  Didn’t seem to be an urgent job because I was now able to get 12v through the switch when I was supposed to get it.

What the engine is doing is this.  When I go to start it, plenty of cranking, but hard to start.  It will start to ignite, but then to coax it over the top I have to fast tap the gas.  If I were to just hold the gas pedal steady, it would definitely stall.  As it stumbles to life, I let the key return to Run.  And it barely stays running, I still have to fast tap the gas, still stumbles, then stalls.  I repeat maybe twice, and I am finally able to keep it running and put on some decent rpms, and it feels and runs pretty good.  At this time I am keeping it steady at 1800 rpms, and after it has warmed up a bit, I let it idle around 800 and it idles pretty well.  I’ve checked the timing.  10 BTDC at idle and with the mechanical advance and vac advance, at 1800 rpms it is at 22 BTDC.

I did hook up a vac gauge at one of the manifold ports coming out of Holley.  I was showing about 13 inches at idle.

I’ve also tried to adjust idle mixture screws, but not much luck.  I kind of felt it was having no affect.  I had the screws all the way in and then backed out one turn to start.  Then at idle, I would back them out a little at a time, and kept going, never really seemed to me that it was having any impact.  I only backed them out another full turn and a half.  I didn’t even see any change in the vac gauge I was using.  So I stopped trying to adjust them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-September-2017 at 5:17AM
lost my Censored post
 
 
ignition sounds good, check for vacuum leak, carb base plate easy warp
 
idle mix screws will not respond 1800 but should be sensitive at 800
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Danno Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-September-2017 at 1:19PM
It was a timing issue! Mechanic told me to put away the timing gun and just listen to the motor. He said to get it started, then set the rpms to 2000, and then crank on the dizzy until she cries uncle. I started to advance the dizzy and she loved it. Kept going until she didn't like it and then backed off. Everything was sounding good, good solid vac. Brought the speed back down to idle, and she still was sounding good. Shut off, and then the big test, would it start back up warm? Reached in through the window, turned the key, started right up and idled!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72GTS351CJ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-September-2017 at 1:31PM
That's great news!! That's how I do it as well. I play with it until I find that sweet spot and lock it in. I never even put a timing light to my engine
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-September-2017 at 2:07PM
Originally posted by Danno Danno wrote:

It was a timing issue! Mechanic told me to put away the timing gun and just listen to the motor. He said to get it started, then set the rpms to 2000, and then crank on the dizzy until she cries uncle. I started to advance the dizzy and she loved it. Kept going until she didn't like it and then backed off. Everything was sounding good, good solid vac. Brought the speed back down to idle, and she still was sounding good. Shut off, and then the big test, would it start back up warm? Reached in through the window, turned the key, started right up and idled!
 
my 1st suspicion but you confirmed settings that should run ...
 
I'm not doubting your work but transferring suspicion to the harmonic balancer, very possible that the outer ring has slipped and gave you BS info. while I'm glad to hear that you're able to time it by ear for now you really should double check & verify TDC with the timing marks
 
my 72 Sportsroof had suffered a balancer explosion before i came to own it, evidenced by the damage to the hood
 
and only because I've done it myself, are you sure you were pulling time off #1 ?
 
is yours a 'dial back' timing light with a knob that changes the indicated setting?
 
and how does it run / drive? Clap
 
  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Bird Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-September-2017 at 2:44PM
I had a similar issue with my 302, I had the wrong pointer for the balancer...
So it got timed by ear...
Mix-n-match parts meant I had a 1979 timing cover and a 1986 balancer and a timing pointer that sits at 10 o'clock and needs to be at 11 o'clock. I got the right pointer after I figured out the problem, and it's still in my toolbox. (14 years later.)

Edited by Big Bird - 22-September-2017 at 2:45PM
The above post should be read in a "Grumpy Old Man" voice.
Almost forgot: "Get off my lawn!!!"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-September-2017 at 3:14PM
good point but i thought i remembered this was a 351C, very little changed over the 5 year run
 
but the 351M/400 ran for 12 years give or take. 99% of 335 series engines use a passenger side pointer, there is a driver side pointer set-up available from a 351M/400 that'll fit
 


Edited by Rockatansky - 22-September-2017 at 3:16PM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Danno Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-September-2017 at 5:09AM
It's almost after 12 noon, which means I can start the car without offending the neighbors (straight headers for now). This will be the tell all test for me, will it start first try, no stumbling?
I joined this forum to learn, so I appreciate any and all feedback. During the assembly, I tried to make sure timing chain, #1 cyl, and balancer were all aligned to tdc. I did not use decreeing wheel or anything like that. I am sure I could have been a degree or so off. I've deifiniteky had the gun on one, and it doesn't have the dial. I agree, the readings should have been good enough for starting. So it tells me 2 things. First, tdc on the balancer was not exactly tdc, but close. Second, by the time you add up all of the non-stock parts, maybe stock evading weren't good enough. I'm definitely curious though, what does the timing gun say now, and how different are the readings now versus last week?
I'll report back!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-September-2017 at 6:05AM
it also just occurred to me that some 302 & 351 balancers are interchangeable and will align the pulleys correctly but the timing scale is in a different position
 
IIRC my last balancer was a 302 with a timing tape applied to make it happen
 
Danno if you gave it a good eyeball with the cam, crank, #1 piston at the top of the bore with the timing pointer showing TDC it's gotta be pretty close? close enough that the light should be in the ballpark
 
did you say MSD ? i went back & looked but i don't see that you're running an aux spark box, but there's still an MSD issue that may explain your timing variation / or not.
 
check out this thread about how different devices (analog vs digital) read the signal from the pick-up coil in the distributor
could be your timing light is converting the signal and ... let's just say it might be one beat off LOL
 
i would think your set-up is analog? so the correct polarity to the pick-up coil should be the one that gives the least advance?
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Danno Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-September-2017 at 1:09PM
It started right up this afternoon! Ran very well. I have the ready to run msd without a box. I'll take a look at the link you sent, but now on to my next problem, the C6. Before this whole project, it had a 3 sec delay going from park to drive or reverse. Once driving though, it shifted like a champ, a real workhorse. So I decided to do a master rebuild kit. Still that same delay, actually worse, about 5 sec. I haven't test drove the car yet. Hindsight, maybe I should have put in a whole new valve body assembly instead of the kits springs and seals. I tried to look at the line pressure. Hooked my gauge up to the test port, needle bounces like crazy in park. Put into rev and the needle drops to zero, then after 5 secs climbs to about 70 psi, and then starts bouncing vibrating between 50 and 80. Similar in drive.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-September-2017 at 5:38PM
sounds like you need the Ford transmission forum too
 
 
 
there's a couple or more guys that really know their way around
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Danno Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-September-2017 at 5:52AM
Manual says 14 qts. I've put 12 in but stopped because dipstick (not me) says it's full. Wonder if I should throw the last 2 quarts in?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-September-2017 at 6:09AM
if it's new and was all apart and drained and shows full, start it up, keep your foot on the brake! move it back and forth through the gear positions a few times to fill those circuits you should feel it engage after a couple seconds in forward and reverse, do that a couple times, shut it off, check for any leaks restart and check the fluid level it may be down after filling all the passages inside the tranny Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Danno Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-September-2017 at 7:24AM
Did that already. Many times. Today I backed it out and tried to drive around the block. No way Jose. Even when it did engage into drive, could barely creep along. Pulled her right back in. I will say that reverse seemed kind of ok after the huge delay.
And it was a complete take apart overhaul, bone dry. Added 1 at to TC, then added 9. Now at 12.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Danno Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-September-2017 at 7:26AM
But it sure looks nice!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Bird Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-September-2017 at 7:29AM
Check your shift linkage. If it is not adjusted correctly, it wont engage fully.
Look up the correct procedure, but I remember that it does not get adjusted in park.
The above post should be read in a "Grumpy Old Man" voice.
Almost forgot: "Get off my lawn!!!"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Danno Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-September-2017 at 8:50AM
I'll double check. I did have the wife hold it in drive, I manually put it all the way towards the rear, which put it in the position of 1st. Then two clicks forward to put it in drive. Then of course, tightened up on it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-September-2017 at 9:49AM
hmm, was the converter new? or drained completely? they hold a lot more than a qt!! after you moved the car... was the fluid showing full? or not at all???
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-September-2017 at 10:38AM
published trans capacities are BS, just go by the stick
but yes the converter will continue to fill after initial fire-up, that's part of what the run on the lift is for as the trans goes through the gears with the tires off the ground (no load)
 
the builder is watching the speedo for shift points and getting a 'seat of the pants' for how firm/slushy the shifts are. it's not unusual at all for a long time professional builder to shut it off & say Thumbs Down Pull It Back Out sometimes more than once ... (twice) ...  
 
i remember my last C6 there was a small spring & check ball in the pump that was finicky, my builder finally got it loosened up w/o a major do-over. he said if it didn't act right it'd be a problem 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Danno Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-September-2017 at 11:28AM
New boss hog, followed instructions, primed it with 1 qt. After the limpy run about 200 ft, stick still shows full. I'm going to stop in and talk to my tranny friend, and ask him what to do next. I seem to remember him saying c6 like extra fluid. Maybe I need to put qt #13 and 14 in. Even though it says full now, zero air bubbles or froth on the stick and nothing venting out the vent...so maybe it needs two more? I'll see what he says.
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