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Don V. View Drop Down
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    Posted: 27-September-2017 at 2:26PM
My granddaughter and I spent some time today driving so she could learn about and practice the proper use of antilock brakes. She still drives on what here is called a "learners permit" and I learned over the weekend that while she was in Drivers Ed, the kids were taught nothing about how to use antilock brakes except to not pump the brakes. They were also given some bad information. I've talked to others since the weekend and the misconceptions aren't limited to kids or new drivers. I shared this website which surprised everyone that read it. Thought I'd share it here also;
 
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Big Bird View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Bird Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-September-2017 at 2:58PM
I don't know how your snow situation is (I assume bad) but G.M. ABS is downright dangerous in our snow/ice in Rochester. Response/Pulse time is slower than a Ford, and it really seems like G.M. is trying to kill us. My truck is like "F- you, you don't really want to stop. Let's go over and visit hit that tree/car/pedestrian!" Our G.M. work trucks were the same way. Now work buys Fords.
"Anti Lock Brakes" my azz. More like "Anti Stop Brakes".
My old 2002 F150 would stop fine, with mediocre tires. Even Chrysler does better than G.M. on ABS.
The above post should be read in a "Grumpy Old Man" voice.
Almost forgot: "Get off my lawn!!!"
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Don V. View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Don V. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-September-2017 at 4:57AM
Originally posted by Big Bird Big Bird wrote:


I don't know how your snow situation is (I assume bad) but G.M. ABS is downright dangerous in our snow/ice in Rochester. Response/Pulse time is slower than a Ford, and it really seems like G.M. is trying to kill us. My truck is like "F- you, you don't really want to stop. Let's go over and visit hit that tree/car/pedestrian!"
Our G.M. work trucks were the same way. Now work buys Fords.
"Anti Lock Brakes" my azz. More like "Anti Stop Brakes".
My old 2002 F150 would stop fine, with mediocre tires. Even Chrysler does better than G.M. on ABS.


Big Bird, I empathize with you and specially on snow or ice. I don't know any specifics about GM's ABS design but your opinion is generally true with the ABS systems in daily driver, family vehicles.

In 94 the USAF was the last controlling organization to declassify the Ring Laser Gyro. Because of that I was recruited away from defense contractors along with many others to work in the auto industry updating traction control and ABS with the gyros. The accelerometer and pulse sensors in use at the time were too limited in the data they could collect and the speed which they could react to the data to maximize the systems capabilities.

I doubt you or anyone else wants the history of all this but except for super cars, ABS today has nothing to do with the original grand plans. Most ABS systems have been reduced to what it once was and works in many ways opposite to what was intended. It has so much more potential than it is being used for, to slide or skid in a straight line. For example, brake steer as a yaw control. Unfortunately some countries banned brake steer believing it would be misused. McLaren tried to keep it alive with their MP4 car which had a rear wheel braking system where the driver could control the rear brake bias or balance. If wanted, the driver could apply brakes to either side only or both sides. Ferrari cried and got it banned in F1. Brake steer by sensor or driver control was dead. Another example, acceleration braking. Sounds like an oxymoron but it's a much more efficient way of controlling traction loss during acceleration than steering. Have you accelerated on snow or ice and instantly the back of your vehicle slides to the right or left? That can be prevented.

As the data shows, what ABS has become isn't safe. And that's made worse with the common misconceptions about what ABS is doing for drivers. Most people believe because it's on their cars they've been told ABS is a panacea to difficult braking situations and it's not. It's not meant to be.

Edited by Don V. - 28-September-2017 at 5:01AM
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yellowsportwagon View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote yellowsportwagon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-September-2017 at 6:47AM
I disconnect that crap. Grew up without it don't need it now. Traction control is even worse. Ever see someone try to get a stuck car out of the snow with traction control on? Good f-n luck. Nobody understands to turn that BS off to get unstuck. All garbage as far as I'm concerned.

Edited by yellowsportwagon - 28-September-2017 at 1:47PM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-September-2017 at 12:26PM
Originally posted by yellowsportwagon yellowsportwagon wrote:

I disconnect that crap. Grew up without it don't need it now. Traction control is even worse. Ever see someone try to get a stick car out of the snow with traction control on? Good f-n luck. Nobody understands to turn that BS off to get unstuck. All garbage as far as I'm concerned.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-September-2017 at 12:46PM
i had an experience with GM's anti-atop braking system in a rental car (buy their insurance)
 
pretty decent snowfall early AM before any plows finished their coffee, forget what model year Malibu that Censored car had no intention of stopping in the same county as the brakes were applied. pulsing & gyrating making it's noises right through an intersection that as luck would have it another car was far enough back that he caught his green far enough in advance that he didn't need to slow much if any. the Malibu caught the broadside in front of the rear tire, bent the wheel /spindle/axle enough that the tire didn't rotate but luckily the snow on the road let me drive it back dragging the gimp tire. not my car LOL
 
i actually used the term ANTI-STOP BRAKES talking to the insurance lady, she tried to correct me but i insisted that i had it right. any pre anti-stop car would've stopped
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-September-2017 at 3:50PM
LOL i'd do that in my 91 caprice cop car... slam on the brakes in the snow and it would pump the pedal all by itself LOL hell i took my old 88 caprice without ABS through the ABS coarse and was able to threshold brake it several times in a second to stop in the box without going off into the treefarm like guys with ABS did!!! the certifying instructor couldn't believe i did it without ABS on the car! i had to show him it didn't have any of that equipment before he'd believe meWink god i miss those days! drifting around corners at 80 mph then accelerate out of it up to 120 mphBig smile   
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90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED
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75 VEGA V6 5 SPD
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Bird Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-September-2017 at 1:57AM
91 still had first gen anti-stop. those were worse. when the solenoid/pump fails, it fails "open" and you get no brakes because you are pushing the ABS pump piston around instead of the caliper pistons and wheel cylinders.
The above post should be read in a "Grumpy Old Man" voice.
Almost forgot: "Get off my lawn!!!"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Don V. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-October-2017 at 9:37AM
I got to take my granddaughter to the former Borg Warner test track over the weekend for a lesson in traction control and ABS. It was interesting because everything she did was video recorded in sync with what the cars were doing. To show her the effects of hydroplaning she drove a 2017 Camaro that lost traction at 15 MPH. In an Audi RS7 the car lost traction just below 50 MPH.

I asked the obvious question about why doesn't every car have the capabilities of the Audi? The answer was because every other idiot that can do 50 would be while driving with cars that are limited to 15.

The best part of the experience for her was being taught the effects of accelerating and braking on level ground compared to uphill and downhill without adequate traction. I got goose bumps just watching it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-October-2017 at 3:33PM
that's awesome Clap
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Don V. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-October-2017 at 6:17PM
Originally posted by californiajohnny californiajohnny wrote:

that's awesome Clap


It was. We had a good time. You would have enjoy this, in the same car used on the up and downhill traction lessons which had out rigger wheels she was given a lesson in the difference between drifting and power sliding. That was pure fun for her.

She still has a couple of months on her permit where she can only drive with a licensed adult and then a couple of months where she can only drive during the day by herself. We will be well into winter when she can be on her own and I definitely feel better about that now. What she remembers and talks about the most is how fast everything can change and she had no control. Something they don't learn in drivers training.

She was also invited back on a day they would be calibrating competition chassis for center of gravity, center of mass and center of mass height if she wants to learn something about why the cars she drove did what they did. She wants to do it.

Don
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-October-2017 at 6:50PM
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JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE
74 VETTE CUSTOM
90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED
77 CELICA CUSTOM
75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED
79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED
75 VEGA V6 5 SPD
70 CHEV C10 P/U
68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION
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