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    Posted: 10-March-2015 at 4:16AM
I'd like to improve the performance of the 302-2v in my newly acquired 79 Tbird.  I've never really dug into something like this, so please be gentle.  My goal is a street driven car to have fun in.  It will never see any kind of track time.  I'm on a very tight budget, and will most likely be looking for used parts, when I can.  I don't really want to touch the insides.  Nor, do I want to touch the rear gears.  So, essentially, I'm looking for bolt-ons.  I'm wanting ease of install and low maintenance.
The engine was rebuilt a couple of years ago, but has never been on the road.  Given that the guy was restoring the car to be stock/original, I'm assuming the engine was rebuilt to stock specifications.  I do have a receipt with details that I can scan and provide.
Currently, it doesn't have an exhaust.  I'm already on the lookout for some long tube headers, with plans to have a local exhaust shop install a 2 1/2" custom exhaust.
 
 
I'm looking for recommendations on an intake and carb combo.  I do like the look of the original air cleaner with a chrome lid.  I understand Holley is not an option with that air cleaner.  Is there a carb that will work with that stipulation?  Cams seem to be pretty cheap, so I'm also considering a very mild cam.  What else can I take care of, while I'm swapping out the cam?
Jeff

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote unlovedford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-March-2015 at 6:00AM
If you are going the cam/lifter/intake/carb route, consider this:

Package deal like Edelbrock offers - usually matched for efficiency.
Or
Pick and choose the best of every manufacturer - more time consuming, but can be a better deal.

Carbs - Edelbrock or Quadra Jet, great carbs, usually ready to run out of the box, will fit the air cleaner case.

Intakes - Dual plane will give you a better street performance. Single plane is better for high RPM use.

Cams - If you want to go roller (less resistance, better performance), there are several great choices out there. Ford Motorsports has some as well. You might check your engine, as it could be a rebuilt roller 5.0 that the previous owner ended up with. That would be a great thing. If you prefer to stay with a flat tappet setup, Comp Cams and Erson have always been good to me. Not a fan of Crane cams since they went through a spat of soft material a few years ago.

Lifters - try to stay with the same brand as the cam, just better that way. Again, a non-roller engine can be converted to roller pretty simply, and less resistance. Buy a quality lifter, as it can be the main culprit of a prematurely worn cam.

Rockers - Go with roller rockers. Worth the price of admission, and less resistance. 1.5, 1.6, 1.7 ratios available.

Timing set - Go with a name brand double roller timing chain set with steel gears. No nylon coated anything. Be sure to check the timing cover for wear.

Push rods - Invest in new ones. Always.

Water pump/thermostat, hoses, bypass hose/heater hoses - Replace always if it has been sitting.

This can all be accomplished without pulling the heads. Personally, I would pull the engine and avoid back issues from bending over, LOL. While it is out, clean the oil pan and install a new pump. Melling makes an excellent pump. Stay away from High Pressure pumps. High volume is sometimes a good choice if you fear a circulation problem arising. Windsors have good circulation and your engine is fresh, so that would be iffy. High pressure causes issues you do not want. Check the engine and transmission mounts for wear as well.

I would at least wait until you have the front clip off, so that access is better, regardless of your decision of pull or not to pull. There are other things to consider, but this is a quick synopsis.
Joe
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote n2fordwagons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-March-2015 at 8:01AM
Thanks Joe.  I was kinda leaning toward Edelbrock.  I think you had previously told me they would fit better with the stock cleaner.  So, I'm considering the Edelbrock 2121 intake and 1406 carb.  Sound good?  Any other stuff I'll need (linkages, fuel lines, etc)?  Anything else to consider, like emissions stuff?  Would like to get everything I'll need.  I've got limited free time, and the car is 30 minutes away at my Dad's.  If I have to order an additional part, it could be a while before I can get back to it.  Would love to knock this out over a weekend.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dave302 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-March-2015 at 8:38AM
If you use that carburetor, then you will probably have to use the edelbrock throttle lever adapter for the ford auto transmission kickdown. To see it Click here.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Bird Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-March-2015 at 12:27PM
I know you don't want to mess with gears, but the simplest way to liven it up is to get a used center-section with 3.23 or 3.50 gears. if you get a diff already set up, it's a fairly quick install.
The above post should be read in a "Grumpy Old Man" voice.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote unlovedford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-March-2015 at 1:36AM
Excellent point.
Joe
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kychevyguy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-March-2015 at 3:15PM
Little shot from a bottle will wake it up too...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-March-2015 at 5:39PM
i'd agree with joe! on the roller rockers the sbf heads will need machined for guide plates or use comp cams roller tip rail type rockers as i did (for now)if you go with a comp cam i'd suggest something comparable to their 268 or 270 high energy cam. yes on the 2 1/2" exhaust. and yes on the dual plane intake. double roller chain. and a new heavy duty oil pump shaft!!


Edited by californiajohnny - 14-March-2015 at 4:27AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote n2fordwagons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-March-2015 at 1:10AM
Thanks for the input guys.  Any opinions on a used Ford intake, from a 83-85 Fox body Mustang?  Would it fit?  And is it decent enough to use?  Like I said, I'm on a budget, so pinching pennies any way I can. 
 
One like this:
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote unlovedford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-March-2015 at 1:20AM
Better than a 2Bbl intake, but not nearly as good as a more modern aftermarket unit. I've had several of those, and Fox restorers are basically the only ones that buy them. Very low profile for hood clearance.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote n2fordwagons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-March-2015 at 2:01AM

I just bought an Edelbrock 2121 intake from Autozone's website. They've got the lowest price I could find, plus a 20% off sale for online orders. Total price with free shipping was $152. Yesterday, I found an Ebay seller selling new Edelbrock 1406 carbs for about $100 less than retail. He only had three of them. I was able to get it for $242 shipped.  So, for $394, I was able to get my intake and carb combo.  Price for the same package deal on Summit's website is $567, although that does include gaskets and bolts.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-March-2015 at 4:14PM
just an FYI, I saw that you say you don't want to get into it up to your elbows, you're probably still OK there, but...
 
the 1406 is calibrated 2% leaner than the 1405,
 
adding long tubes & a 2.5" exhaust will likely require a slight amount of richening the mid & power circuits. good news is it's pretty easy on the Eddy carbs
 
page 12 here shows your tuning chart
 
maybe start looking for a deal on Calibration Kit 1487 or I think you can get parts individually
 
======================
 
what trans?
 
if it uses throttle position rather than old school kick-down, it has to be right or the trans will burn up FAST
 
before you take anything apart measure the cable very accurately from a point the won't change after the new intake & carb is in place, like the amount of inner cable showing from the outer cable or the distance from the bracket to the linkage ball or pin on the carb
 
if the throttle position cable is set up looser than it was stock, the trans will run lower pressure applying the clutches & they'll slip & burn... like I said Very Quickly
 
if the cable is set a hair tighter you get a firmer more positive shift & the trans may last longer Big smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote n2fordwagons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-March-2015 at 1:24AM
Thanks for the info. Transmission is a C4.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Regul8r Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-March-2015 at 3:13AM
I just bought this 4bbl intake for my 351W.
Dual plane and good idle though 6000 rpm.
Doubt I will ever run it more than that except on short blasts, occasionally.
I bought it instead of the Weiand because this one has the REAR water crossover that MOST of the SBF intakes do not have. If you look, almost all SBF aftermarket 4bbl intakea have bosses that can be drilled and tapped or already are so you can run a hose crossover from head to head to get better circulation and flow at the back of the heads.

http://m.ebay.com/itm/390459175855?nav=SEARCH

If that link doesn't work type in the E-Bay search "351w Assault"

Edited by Regul8r - 14-March-2015 at 3:15AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-March-2015 at 4:49AM
so if it's the C4 easier on you! Thumbs Up
 
you just need to get a bracket for the kick-down then, Eddy is not Ford auto trans ready
 
have you looked at the tuning chart? from the Center #1 you might want to try #2,
 
#3 may be too far Rich 
 
or you may find another tuning issue after you drive it that can be easily tuned
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote n2fordwagons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-February-2017 at 6:03AM
Originally posted by unlovedford unlovedford wrote:


Cams - If you want to go roller (less resistance, better performance), there are several great choices out there. Ford Motorsports has some as well. You might check your engine, as it could be a rebuilt roller 5.0 that the previous owner ended up with. That would be a great thing. If you prefer to stay with a flat tappet setup, Comp Cams and Erson have always been good to me. Not a fan of Crane cams since they went through a spat of soft material a few years ago.

Lifters - try to stay with the same brand as the cam, just better that way. Again, a non-roller engine can be converted to roller pretty simply, and less resistance. Buy a quality lifter, as it can be the main culprit of a prematurely worn cam.
Originally posted by californiajohnny californiajohnny wrote:

i'd agree with joe! on the roller rockers the sbf heads will need machined for guide plates or use comp cams roller tip rail type rockers as i did (for now)if you go with a comp cam i'd suggest something comparable to their 268 or 270 high energy cam. yes on the 2 1/2" exhaust. and yes on the dual plane intake. double roller chain. and a new heavy duty oil pump shaft!!
 
Resurrecting this thread.  Any suggestions on specific brand and model of cam?  Let's stick with a flat tappet cam for now.  Looking for something mild that will go well with the carb, intake, longtube headers, and 2.5" exhaust.  Eventually, I'd like to swap out the rear gears, as budget and time allows, but for now, they're stock.  Engine is currently stock '79 302 w/ C4 transmission.
 
 
Also, knowing that the engine was rebuilt (I've got receipts), and that the current valve springs are new, is there any need to get a kit with new valve springs?  Or, am I good with a cam & lifters kit + a double roller timing chain set?


Edited by n2fordwagons - 09-February-2017 at 7:49AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote torino335 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-February-2017 at 6:52AM
i dont no if your ignition is the same,but old school when i was into granadas 75-78 models there was rev limiter in the ignition power box,we would use the 75 year box and put it in the 78 model,total different car,box in 78 is set at 4200 rpm,the 78 granada was a 302 with 2,21 gears,changed the box and speed gauge from a 75 model it was no problem doing 120 mph,
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote n2fordwagons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-February-2017 at 7:00AM
Originally posted by torino335 torino335 wrote:

i dont no if your ignition is the same,but old school when i was into granadas 75-78 models there was rev limiter in the ignition power box,we would use the 75 year box and put it in the 78 model,total different car,box in 78 is set at 4200 rpm,the 78 granada was a 302 with 2,21 gears,changed the box and speed gauge from a 75 model it was no problem doing 120 mph,
 
Yeah, I'm sure my ignition will need an upgrade as well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote n2fordwagons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-February-2017 at 7:03AM
Any experience with Summit Racing brand camshafts?  How does this one sound?
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrSmog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-February-2017 at 8:17AM
Originally posted by n2fordwagons n2fordwagons wrote:

Any experience with Summit Racing brand camshafts?  How does this one sound?
 


I used a slightly smaller summit cam in a 351w pickup i had, it was fine. summit cams are made by crane I believe.  best thing you can do to pep that bird up is a gear change. if you put a cam in it, then you'll need to put a stall in even if they say you can run a stocker. if you don't run 75 on the hwy all the time, throw a set of 3.50 (3.55's if yours has the 8" rear) gears in that bird. then when you put that cam in, put a 2200 stall or so in it and that lil 302 will wake up as much as its gonna wake up.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrSmog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-February-2017 at 8:19AM
just saw you didn't want to touch the rear gears, i'd seriously re-think that. its not that tough to find a used center section. i'd do that before a cam/intake/carb and headers  just my .02   

Its just tough to take a lil low compression 302 in a 4500 lb car with 2.79 gears and get it do anything that resembles pep imo


Edited by MrSmog - 09-February-2017 at 5:40PM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote n2fordwagons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-February-2017 at 8:48AM
Originally posted by MrSmog MrSmog wrote:

Originally posted by n2fordwagons n2fordwagons wrote:

Any experience with Summit Racing brand camshafts?  How does this one sound?
 


I used a slightly smaller summit cam in a 351w pickup i had, it was fine. summit cams are made by crane I believe.  best thing you can do to pep that bird up is a gear change. if you put a cam in it, then you'll need to put a stall in even if they say you can run a stocker. if you don't run 75 on the hwy all the time, throw a set of 3.50 (3.55's if yours has the 8" rear) gears in that bird. then when you put that cam in, put a 2200 stall or so in it and that lil 302 will wake up as much as its gonna wake up.
 
You must have used this one.
 
 
Did it have much of a "lope" at idle?  Did you put a stall in it?
 
Thanks for your input!
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrSmog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-February-2017 at 9:00AM
Originally posted by n2fordwagons n2fordwagons wrote:

Originally posted by MrSmog MrSmog wrote:

Originally posted by n2fordwagons n2fordwagons wrote:

Any experience with Summit Racing brand camshafts?  How does this one sound?
 


I used a slightly smaller summit cam in a 351w pickup i had, it was fine. summit cams are made by crane I believe.  best thing you can do to pep that bird up is a gear change. if you put a cam in it, then you'll need to put a stall in even if they say you can run a stocker. if you don't run 75 on the hwy all the time, throw a set of 3.50 (3.55's if yours has the 8" rear) gears in that bird. then when you put that cam in, put a 2200 stall or so in it and that lil 302 will wake up as much as its gonna wake up.
 
You must have used this one.
 
 
Did it have much of a "lope" at idle?  Did you put a stall in it?
 
Thanks for your input!
 
 


I seem to recall it was around a .447 in/.458 ex cam I used. I ran single exhaust in the truck so hard to tell any idle difference. in a windsor headed motor I don't think you'll notice much difference in lope until you get above .525 or so and start to get into the longer duration cams. Seems with the cleveland heads, smaller cams just sound to have much more lope to them over the smaller port windsor heads. At least thats what I have noticed and a larger motor will sound milder wit hthe same size cam, so it may sound different in a 302. i had 2.79 gears in that truck with stock stall, it was no faster off the line then it was stock, maybe even a hair slower. Once up to hwy speeds it was a little bit better then stock. Not a huge difference either way.


Edited by MrSmog - 09-February-2017 at 9:03AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Bird Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-February-2017 at 11:29AM
Okay, let's hear it for a 3.50 center chunk!!!!
Better intake and a 4bbl carb!!!!
Dual exhaust and ditch the cats since they are 40 years old and probably plugged up anyway.
Smog pump goes away, EGR??? We don't need no steenkin' EGR!!!
More cam won't hurt either.
 
Crown vics 86-91 have a roller 5.0 with flat top pistons and actually have slightly higher compression than the mustang 5.0, and the H.O. cam or an E303 fits right in. E6 heads so keep lift under .500
The above post should be read in a "Grumpy Old Man" voice.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-February-2017 at 2:28PM
FWIW here's the cam i used:
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-4400
now their specs are slightly different than the card that came with the cam but really close! the @0.50 is off by 1 point but the advertised duration on the card says 262 and 272??? but i went with this cam for the fact i wanted to keep the 351W firing order and more on the exhaust side since fords suffer on the exhaust Confused it runs smooth, a little lopey idle, good torque
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote n2fordwagons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-February-2017 at 12:22AM
Originally posted by Big Bird Big Bird wrote:

Okay, let's hear it for a 3.50 center chunk!!!!
Better intake and a 4bbl carb!!!!
Dual exhaust and ditch the cats since they are 40 years old and probably plugged up anyway.
Smog pump goes away, EGR??? We don't need no steenkin' EGR!!!
More cam won't hurt either.
 
Crown vics 86-91 have a roller 5.0 with flat top pistons and actually have slightly higher compression than the mustang 5.0, and the H.O. cam or an E303 fits right in. E6 heads so keep lift under .500
 
Ok, so let me get this straight.  Y'all are saying I need to replace the rear gears with 3.50?  Wink
Ok, Ok.  I hear ya.  LOL 
 
Better intake & carb - Check, I've already got them, ready to install.
Dual exhaust - Check, currently it doesn't even have an exhaust.  It actually has some brand new cats, but they're coming off.  I've already got some long tube headers, ready to install.
Smog Pump / EGR - Was planning on ditching that crap.
More Cam - Working on it.
Plus, I've got some cool finned valve covers and chrome air cleaner - We all know that adds at least 5 hp, right?
 
 
Jeff

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79 Ford Thunderbird w/ T-tops
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californiajohnny View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-February-2017 at 3:22AM
5hp????probably at least 10hp ShockedLOL go 2 1/2" on the exhaust pipes dual!!!!Wink
JOHN
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote n2fordwagons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-February-2017 at 11:40AM
A local friend of mine who might help me likes lunati voodoo cams. This one looks appealing but the application chart says it's for a 69-85 351w. Will it work in my 302? Maybe just change my firing order?https://summitracing.com/parts/lun-10350701/applications?prefilter=1

Edited by n2fordwagons - 10-February-2017 at 12:07PM
Jeff

76 Mercury Montego MX Villager w/ 460
79 Ford Thunderbird w/ T-tops
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californiajohnny View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-February-2017 at 12:00PM
link wouldn't work for me. but yes you can change the firing order
JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE
74 VETTE CUSTOM
90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED
77 CELICA CUSTOM
75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED
79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED
75 VEGA V6 5 SPD
70 CHEV C10 P/U
68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION
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n2fordwagons View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote n2fordwagons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-February-2017 at 12:10PM
Probably cuz I did it from my phone, and it had was their mobile site. Try again.
Jeff

76 Mercury Montego MX Villager w/ 460
79 Ford Thunderbird w/ T-tops
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