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Braking Options….Hydroboost

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schottj1 View Drop Down
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    Posted: 11-March-2015 at 3:30PM
Hi everyone,

I have a 72 GTS with the 351C.  When i bought the car it already had a larger cam installed, and therefore has abysmal vacuum pressure.  This makes the power brakes not so powerful… They are incredibly hard to press, almost to the point of feeling unsafe while driving if i had to stop on a dime.  There is already a vacuum canister in use, but it essentially doesn't help at all.  So, i have been researching some different avenues as to how i can increase my braking power.  Either

1) Convert to manual brakes.  (But after doing some research on the subject it seems a little intensive and not worth it to me)
2) Buy a vacuum pump (Not opposed to this option, but don't really have any background knowledge on installing them/which one to buy)
3) Install hydroboost.  
This is the option i would like the most, but I have a few questions about it.  I have searched the forum (and the internet) and really the only info i can find is people suggesting it or having posted pictures of theirs installed. I just want to know where to buy one that bolts up!  It seems like a pretty straightforward process after you have the unit, connecting to the power steering pump, but where can I actually get one specific that will fit the car with minimal or no modifications (other than connections to PS pump)? 

My line of thinking was that lots of manufacturers would make bolt up replacements for a bunch of the older cars because it seems like a decent upgrade.  But I haven't had any luck in finding a correct unit for this year of the torino.  Does anyone have any suggestions, knowledge, or advice on the matter?

Thanks!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote robot9000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-March-2015 at 6:17AM
By far the easiest, safest and probably cheapest is the vacum pump. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GranTorinoSport Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-March-2015 at 6:31AM
aquartlow is using hydroboost successfully I believe, and there are a few others here.

You would need a Saginaw style pump with the extra port for hydroboost, but those are easy to come by.

Also you'd need a hydroboost unit. Some of the folks that are using it can tell you what the units are out of.

I, for one, have considered this for my Sport.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dave302 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-March-2015 at 6:53AM
There is a member who had installed a hydroboost unit from a 1978 lincoln mark V. He had to drill one hole for the brake pedal mount. He was able to keep his Torino master cylinder and used the Lincoln Power Steering pump. 
 
 
He had made custom lines running to the hydroboost. He did all of this for two reasons, his 393 Cleveland only pulled 12" vacuum at idle and he needed the space where the vacuum booster was located to mount his clutch master cylinder.

He had said that his Brake pedal feel is very good and it doesn't over boost at all.


Edited by dave302 - 12-March-2015 at 7:02AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dave302 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-March-2015 at 7:00AM
The parts that he had used are:
One Remanufactured 1978 lincoln mark V Brake booster from O'Reilly's = $192.00 (including core)
One Remanufactured 1978 lincoln mark V Power Steering pump from O'Reilly's = $57.00 (including core)
One Custom made pressure line to Hydro Boost = $35.00
One Stock 1978 Lincoln mark V pressure line from Hydro Boost to steering box from O'Reilly's = $16.00
One Stock 1978 Lincoln mark V return line from O'Reilly's = $12.00
One Pulley for Power Steering pump from Summit = $27.00

Some fabrication was required to mount the pump to the 351 Cleveland power steering bracket. He trimmed his (to make it square) and then fabricated a spacer to mount the pump. He then welded that spacer in place on the bracket.

The total cost was about $340.00 using new parts. But if you find a Lincoln mark V in a junk yard or a parts car to find these parts, it will be even cheaper. 


Edited by dave302 - 12-March-2015 at 7:27AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dave302 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-March-2015 at 7:10AM
He had said that he has driven the car about 800 miles since he had installed the hydro boost unit and he said that he has no complaints. He had said that it seems to be no more crowded than normal with a 351 Cleveland.
He did have a small leak on one of the hydraulic line fittings on the steering box, but he was able to get a wrench on it to tighten it and the leak had stopped.

Edited by dave302 - 12-March-2015 at 7:19AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TV 2M8O Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-March-2015 at 10:27AM
Dave,

Can you link to his thread concerning this install?

THANKS

TV 2M8O OUT
JOE
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dave302 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-March-2015 at 10:45AM
Your welcome. To see the thread Click here.

Edited by dave302 - 12-March-2015 at 10:51AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aquartlow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-March-2015 at 1:40PM
Originally posted by GranTorinoSport GranTorinoSport wrote:

aquartlow is using hydroboost successfully I believe, and there are a few others here.

You would need a Saginaw style pump with the extra port for hydroboost, but those are easy to come by.

Also you'd need a hydroboost unit. Some of the folks that are using it can tell you what the units are out of.

I, for one, have considered this for my Sport.
 
Scott,
 Thank you for remembering my hydroboost install. I used a HB unit out of a 90's Astro van ($25 from a U-pull-it yard) coupled to a remanned disc/disc 1 1/8" bore master cylinder for an '80 Corvette from AZ for $30-$35(the Corvette MC uses the same shallow bore as the Astro van MC, although the Astro van has disc/drum brakes). I rebuilt/resealed the HB unit, the seal kit was more than the HB unit($40). What made me use the Astro unit was their wide spread use(EZ to find) and their type of mounting plate that is easily removed with a large nut on the firewall side of the unit. I would do this mod in a heartbeat, I like how fast my BB accelerates but REALLY like how fast it stops(though other brake system mods take advantage of the HB increased braking effect). I use a Saginaw PS pump with the second return fitting on the pump's reservoir, the Sag pump has more PSI/GPM capacity than a Ford/Thompson pump, although you can use the Ford pump if you install a "T" fitting in the return line. It would be wise to use a PS cooler as well, I use a trans cooler out of a Chevy Suburban repurposed for PS cooler duties, it WORKS!  Here is a pic of the 2nd Astro HB unit I resealed/rebuilt, on the shelf as we speak:
 
 
Here are a couple pics of my install, they are a couple years old, so some things have changed.
 
 
I have approx. $150 to $200 in the HB unit, HB unit reseal kit, Master cylinder, MC stainless lines to proportioning valve and disc/disc proportioning valve. If any more info or pics are requested, please don't hesitate to ask.
www.supermotors.net/22468
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GranTorinoSport Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-March-2015 at 2:29AM
Todd, 

Since we are on the subject of your Hydroboost, could you please answer a couple of questions for me?

1. Astro Van HB unit. Why? And I ask this since a Mark V unit would also (presumably) fit our cars with no issue. Are the Astro units better, newer more reliable? Better fit? Cheaper? All of the above?

2. Corvette MC. Again, I must as why - but aren't you running 4-wheel disc from 2000-2002 CV? From that perspective, the F/R Disc unit makes some sense.

I have no issue with the Saginaw pump, have already looked into as part of a future effort to get new engine brackets (March serpentine) for the addition of a Sanden style AC compressor and 3G alternator. I also have no issue with the PS cooler, as I am already running one, but I would get a bigger one if adding Hydroboost.

Oh, and I'd have to change/modify my MC to Proportioning Valve lines, which are SS, so that would be a challenge. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aquartlow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-March-2015 at 4:12AM
Originally posted by GranTorinoSport GranTorinoSport wrote:

Todd, 

Since we are on the subject of your Hydroboost, could you please answer a couple of questions for me?

1. Astro Van HB unit. Why? And I ask this since a Mark V unit would also (presumably) fit our cars with no issue. Are the Astro units better, newer more reliable? Better fit? Cheaper? All of the above?

2. Corvette MC. Again, I must as why - but aren't you running 4-wheel disc from 2000-2002 CV? From that perspective, the F/R Disc unit makes some sense.

I have no issue with the Saginaw pump, have already looked into as part of a future effort to get new engine brackets (March serpentine) for the addition of a Sanden style AC compressor and 3G alternator. I also have no issue with the PS cooler, as I am already running one, but I would get a bigger one if adding Hydroboost.

Oh, and I'd have to change/modify my MC to Proportioning Valve lines, which are SS, so that would be a challenge. 
 
Scott,
1) At the time of my HB swap the Lincoln Mark V HB unit was $173 and the newest that the remanned unit could be was over 35 years old and due to the fact I have less than $70 in a resealed unit I went with the factory original "used" Asto unit(not knowing how many times a re-man unit has been "re-manned") and of course I can be on the "frugal"(read cheap) side. The Astro HB is very easy to get and it is dirt cheap at any U-pull-it yard and after a little research most aftermarket HB systems use this type of HB unit due to it's "universal" style of mounting. If you look at the 1st pic above, you can see the mounting "snout" of the Astro HB unit(upper LH in pic), you may be able to make out the threads on the snout. I made my own mounting bracket by using a 3/16" flat stock cut 5"x 5" (or so) and boring a center hole the same size as the HB "snout" and welding a tab that indexes into a "keyway" that is machined into the snout from the factory to allow for perfect alignment/orientation of the HB unit once installed on the firewall. I also drilled the four mounting bolt locations by the use of the original vacuum booster studs or by placing the plate on the firewall and taking a thin Sharpie, mark the bolt locations from inside the vehicle. The original booster had studs but I just used bolts placed through the brake pedal assembly from the inside with mounting nuts/washers on the engine side of the firewall
 
2) I went with the Corvette MC for a number reasons: A) It is a disc/disc MC which is what is required for proper operation of a 4 wheel disc brake vehicle(believe me, there are differences internally between a disc/disc and a disc/drum MC and it definitely makes a difference in braking effect). B) The Corvette MC has fender side outlets to keep the lines away from the engine/engine heat as much as possible. C) The Corvette MC has an 1 1/8" bore which is "usually" prescribed for a HB install, although the MC bore on a Ford SD w/HB are 1 3/8" IIRC. D) The Corvette MC has the exact same "shallow" bore as the Astro van's original MC used so no changes had to be made to the HB unit's pushrod length. E) Any parts store has these either remanned or new and are inexpensive(remember I can be cheap...err frugal), if I had a MC from a specialty brake company and I had an issue my vehicle would have to sit until the parts came in.
 
 
 I went with a GM based 4 wheel disc brake prop valve I purchased off of Ebay,(they have them in chrome as well) 
UNIVERSAL-BRASS-GM-DISC-DISC-BRAKE-PROPORTIONING-COMBINATION-VALVE-4-WHEEL-DISC
 
I investigated the gutting and/or modifying of my original PV, but I figured "new" was a better way for me to go and it is proven. IIRC, this GM based PV matches the outlet sizes of my original disc/drum PV, so I believe it was a direct swap(though, I will have to re-check this). Stainless brake lines are a bitch to flare from what I have heard, not so much a single flare, but when attempting to double flare the line it wreaks havoc. I did go with 2000 CV brakes front and rear, which really helped with braking "bias"(I didn't need to worry about matching the rear rotors to the increased front rotor diameter of the CV brakes Ford had already matched the sizes for me). There are a lot of rear disc kits(and they work great, from what I've read/heard), but I am not sure if they completely compliment the stock front rotor size or allow the rears to have so much braking effect it unbalances the vehicle during hard braking(an adjustable PV could solve any issues here though). There is A LOT of info to weed through and make the right decisions for your own application. I haven't had any issues with the breaking system at all, even my 15 year old son will tell me "Man, this thing STOPS". The only 2 thing I believe I would change is getting the braking system on my ride sooner and buying this flaring tool sooner:
This thing is the "sh*t" when flaring lines, I actually look forward to flaring lines now(how crazy does that sound). If any more info or pics are requested, Please, once again don't hesitate to ask.


Edited by aquartlow - 13-March-2015 at 4:30AM
www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires.

No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t.

Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote schottj1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-March-2015 at 11:53AM
Thanks of the replies guys, I appreciate it.  Its a bummer they don't make a kit for our cars that includes the hydroboost unit, power steering pump, lines, and everything needed for the conversion.  I would be willing to pay a little more for ease of installation and knowing i have everything done right.  But from the sounds not it it doesn't seem too hard to do on your own.  Now i just have to find the time to do it! thats the hardest part.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote robot9000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-March-2015 at 6:19AM
An aftermarket vacuum pump is easier and you get the same result.  


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote schottj1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-March-2015 at 7:56AM
True, but any decent one i could find on summit was in excess of 200 dollars.  Then after looking up some videos of them they appear to be almost obnoxiously loud.  If i could find a quiet vacuum pump that generated enough vacuum while still being economically feasible i might be more interested in that option. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GranTorinoSport Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-March-2015 at 10:33AM
Hydroboost provides the added benefit of increasing breaking assist. So if you plan to increase your brake size, this would be a wise route. That is the reason I am thinking of going with hydroboost. My vacuum is a little low on the 521, but it is still do-able. If I go to larger brakes (which I plan to do in the future), then the hydroboost will be a good add-on.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BackInBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-May-2016 at 4:52AM
Found some info for mixing matching parts that may be useful:
 
Ford power steering pumps (early Thompson style): 1100-1200 psi  @ ~1.85 gpm flow rate
GM (Saginaw): 1300-1400ps @ ~1.85 gpm flow
 
For hydroboost power steering pump is a higher flow Saginaw variety: 1300ps @ 2.11 gpm 
(Looks like this is done with the pulley ratio.)
 
So basically, the stock pump would be marginally ok but should get replaced with the hydroboost pump from the Lincoln.
 
 




Edited by BackInBlack - 04-May-2016 at 5:44AM
-John
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aquartlow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-May-2016 at 5:06AM
The Saginaw pump is internally modded, not by a pulley change(but I guess it could help). Here is link to flow and pressure changes done internally, they are very easy to do. http://www.gmtruckcentral.com/articles/2013/powersteeringmods/
You need the hydroboost unit from a Lincoln Mark series due to the bolt configuration where it mounts to the firewall(same as your vacuum booster stud location), a Continental/Towncar and/or Mercury Grand Marquis HB unit will have a different mounting stud location, not sure of a 75-'76 T-bird(probably the same as Mark series). I went with the Astro Van HB unit due to it's "universal" and removable mounting bracket which made mocking up my own mounting bracket WAY easier. Good luck, you will not regret going HB! 
www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote unlovedford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-May-2016 at 5:16AM
I wanted to stay with manual brakes on my red wagon, but need better braking power with the roller engine, suspension mods and 5 speed I'm installing in it. That rules out manual brakes. Don't like the feel our original brakes have, so a stock booster is out. I figure the HB is the way to go, with the larger brakes I'm installing. I like the idea of easy parts availability on the GM setup, so that makes the decision for me. What type model/years Astro van most commonly has the HB setup?
Joe
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BackInBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-May-2016 at 5:49AM
I would rather use the Mark V booster.  However, I don't want to use a part that will be impossible to replace later.   These are looking scarce now...
 
Here is a link for a 70 torino...it looks like the Astro booster and you select the bracket of your choosing.
Check this out:
 
Really pricey...lots of master cylinder options for reference.
 


Edited by BackInBlack - 04-May-2016 at 5:53AM
-John
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aquartlow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-May-2016 at 11:04AM
Joe,
 I used a HB unit off of a '93 or '94 Astro(some Astro's are vacuum assist as well), it is the one that points straight ahead away from the firewall, the later models use a downward tilt to their mounting bracket. The Astro HB has an accumulator(gold in color) geared towards front disc and rear drum, if you want more assist install a blue accumulator(gives about 100 or so lbs more assist). I use the Gold accumulator and it works fine. I also hit the GM parts bin for a '79 or '80 Corvette master cylinder due to the Astro HB unit needing a "shallow bore" MC, the 'Vette MC fits the HB, designed for disc/disc applications, has the shallow bore and also allows the brake lines to exit on the fender side(more header room in my case). I do know the HB unit coupled with the 2000 Crown Vic calipers/rotors front and rear, my Ranchero out-stops my other vehicles( Toyota Sequoia, F250 7.3 SD4x4, John Deere riding mower....LOL).
www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires.

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Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aquartlow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-May-2016 at 11:17AM
Originally posted by BackInBlack BackInBlack wrote:

I would rather use the Mark V booster.  However, I don't want to use a part that will be impossible to replace later.   These are looking scarce now...
 
Here is a link for a 70 torino...it looks like the Astro booster and you select the bracket of your choosing.
Check this out:
 
Really pricey...lots of master cylinder options for reference.
 
 
 
The Astro van has a large nut that holds the bracket in place, the bracket is also "keyed" to the snout that sticks out the back of the unit. I fabbed up a 3/16" mounting bracket that I drilled to match my original vacuum booster stud locations then through bolted the HB unit to the firewall, I welded a tab on the bracket that aligns with the snout's keyway. I "picked" up a good used Astro HB unit and rebuilt it myself for under $80 using this http://piratejack.net/2771004-hydro-boost-repair-kit/. BTW, the Lincoln's/Mark series HB units uses a spring for brake assist, the later units all use nitrogen filled accumulators. The unit you linked looks like a good part, just a little pricey for me and you are correct about the Mark series HB units getting scarce. Good luck
www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires.

No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t.

Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lynchster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-May-2016 at 1:18PM
Manual brakes maybe? Never used them in a hipo set up but I never had a problem with them in my 68 Belvedere. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote unlovedford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-May-2016 at 2:36AM
I currently have manual brakes on my '72 wagon. With a 250 and 3 speed, it was actually good. I like the feel and the ease of modulation. However, with 3X the power I feel that I need a little assist to control things if they get dicey. Besides, I am not quite sure how manual 4 wheel discs would perform.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BackInBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-October-2016 at 5:21AM
I've been working on converting to Hyrdoboost...

This is what I've found using the 78 Lincoln Mark V unit. 
Mounting:  Not exactly bolt in.  Required me drilling, filling, fitting one of the mounting holes to get the upper engine side bolt to line up.  This required me to also fabricate a new spacer and extend the mounting hole in the pedal brace.  This also required me to fabricate a plate adapter bracket for the firewall.  From my experience mounting this I would recommend taking the Astrovan HB path explained in this thread.   The fact that you can make your own firewall adapter plate to fit without more modifications is a huge benefit, IMO.

Pedal linkage alignment:  Using the markv HB unit also messes up the booster pin to pedal alignment if your using stock pedals.   The orginal vacuum booster linkage rod had a drop down to the end of the pin.  This threw off the height of the booster pin on the brake pin relative to pedal pivot.   This changes the pedal ratio slightly.  There is a 5/8" difference in pin location on the brake pedal for lincoln HB and the orginal vacuum booster.   I'm having the pin relocated on the brake pedal, 5/8 higher thus reducing the travel and increases the pedal ratio slightly.  This will decrease overall travel slightly and decrease the pedal resistance which may not be a good thing.   I may have to switch to a 1 1/8" or 1 1/4" master cylinder to compensate; to provide good pedal feel. 



FYI...if I had to do it all over again I would do the Astrovan implementation.  Good job, BTW, for sorting that out.




Edited by BackInBlack - 18-October-2016 at 7:01AM
-John
1973 GTS
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jhggtsf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-October-2016 at 6:07AM
Has anyone thought of using the hydroboost from a 96-04 Mustang GT?

Those are at least plentiful. Bolt pattern looks similar to the vacuum booster above, although the Mustang flange is at a small angle...


Edited by jhggtsf - 18-October-2016 at 6:07AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mlachance112785 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-October-2016 at 7:39AM
I used a booster from a Mark V as well. I also took the whole brake pedal assembly from the donor car. No modding there. Everything bolted up in my 77. The only thing I did have to do, was make a panel and secure it to the firewall. The hole is larger than what the hydroboost needed. 


Hope these help. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aquartlow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-October-2016 at 8:15AM
FWIW, I would go with the 1 1/8" bore MC, that is what all the 70's Lincolns came with when equipped with HB. A 1 1/4" bore will give a harder pedal that will become tiresome over time(unless you go to the gym frequently LOL).  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aquartlow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-October-2016 at 8:18AM
Nice work! Did you also install the 4 wheel disc prop valve, really makes a difference due to split and slope differences between a disc/drum and disc/disc prop valve. Another plus using the Mark V unit is the SAE inverted flare fittings, whereas the Astro unit uses metric fittings with O-ring seals(I used adapters without any leaks). Once again nice work.
 
Mark, this was in reference to the images you posted above. Sorry for not quoting your reply.


Edited by aquartlow - 18-October-2016 at 1:17PM
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Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires.

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