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C6 Rebuild

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Danno View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Danno Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: C6 Rebuild
    Posted: 04-October-2017 at 2:41AM
Any expert troubleshooters out there?  I did a master rebuild kit overhaul on 72 C6.  Not working out too well.  I don't have good engagement.  Here are the line pressure readings I got.  Any ideas on what to check out?
 

I bought a really good gauge that is glycerin filled and it goes up to 300#.   So here are the readings I got last night.  Also, I disconnected the vac mod from engine vac and put a vac pump on it and gave it 20".  It holds pretty well.  I wanted to eliminate the mod as an issue, since my engine vac is kind of low.  In summary, it looks like pressure is kind of normal in P, R and N, but low/zero in all forward gears.

 

Start the car, and in Park I get an immediate 50# line pressure with 15" vac at idle, right around 1000 rpms. Slowly rev engine up to 1800 rpms, vac climbs to 20" pressure remains steady at 50#.  Back to idle at 1000 rpms.

 

P to R, pressure drops to 0, vac stays at 15", after a 6 sec delay, engine starts to load up and you see vac drop off to 11".  At that time, pressure builds back up to 50# and then moves back and forth between 50-60#.  With 50-60# and 11" I could move the car in reverse.

R to P: Pressure stays at 50# and vac jumps right back to 15"

P to R to N (quickly go through reverse right into neutral):  Pressure dropped to 0 but popped back up to 50# quickly (as soon as I was in neutral), all the while vac stayed at 15".

N to D:  Pressure immediately drops to 0 and vac stays at 15".  Nothing going on here.

D back to N: Pressure pops back up to 50# and 15".

N to R: pressure drops to 0, vac stays at 15", after a 3 sec delay, engine starts to load up.  Pressure returns to 50# as Vac drops to about 11" and it then feels like I am in fact in Reverse.  Pressure stays steady at 50#.

R to P: Pressure stays at 50# and vac jumps right back to 15".

 

Round 2:

P to R:  Same as above, 0 #, delay and then at 50# and 11".

R to N: Pressure stays at 50# and vac jumps right back to 15"

N to D: Same, but this time, engine tries to load up, you see pump pressure trying to move off 0, but it doesn't.

D to 2: 0 and 15"

2 to 1: 0 and 15"

1 to 2: ""

2 to D: ""

D to N:???It stayed at 0 and 15!! Weird.  Why didn't it pop back up to 50#.

N to R: ???It stayed at 0 and 15!!

R to P: ???It stayed at 0 and 15!!

 

Round 3:  Let things settle out.  Back to 50# in Park.

P to R:  Same as above, 0 #, delay and then at 50# and 11".

R to N:  Pressure stays at 50# and vac jumps right back to 15"

N to D: Press drops to 0, 8 sec delay engine starts to load up a little, 13".  And this time pressure limps up to 20-30# but no higher.

D to N: Pressure pops back up to 50# and 15".

N to D: Press drops to 0, 8 sec delay engine starts to load up a little, 13".  And this time pressure limps up to 20-30# but no higher.

Back to Park, end of test.
Danno
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aquartlow View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aquartlow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-October-2017 at 10:58AM
Try here for C6 "learnin", http://www.network54.com/Forum/260730
great bunch of guys that will help.
www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires.

No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t.

Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Danno Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-December-2017 at 12:23AM
Problem solved. Two mistakes. Wrong filter and snap ring on inner race, low-rev one way clutch was not positioned correctly.
Apparently there are 3 diff depths of pans. Mine is the standard shallow depth. AZGave me a filter for deep pan. There was only 1/8 inch clearance from suction on filter and pan bottom. Weight of tranny on jack compressed pan to cover up pretty much the whole suction.
Snap ring. I tend to read to much, follow instructions, sometimes blindly. Book said to slide snap ring “until it is fully seated on the inner race.” I didn’t see any groove on the race, so assumed it was in place sitting just below the fluid hole bored into the race, about half way down. What they really meant was to push the ring down past the bottom of race, until it snaps underneath the entire race.
Anyways, the above two mistakes have been corrected, nothing else looked out of place, so I’ll reinstall tranny this weekend.
Danno
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aquartlow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-December-2017 at 4:17AM
Glad to hear you did find issues and were able correct them. Did you rebuild it back to stock or install any upgrades like an "R" servo, servo lever change or any type of "shift kit" and/or valve body mods? Good luck on re-installation. 
www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires.

No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t.

Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-December-2017 at 7:37AM
servo & lever specs http://www.network54.com/Forum/260730/thread/1071371940/This+is+a+list+of+C6+servo+sizes
 
note that Jay & others warn against too much servo + lever!
 
servos
 
CODE ... APPLY DIA ... RELEASE DIA ... SEAL TYPE
  N ........ 1.93 ............... 2.92 .......... Molded piston
  S ........ 2.00 ................2.86          
  G ........ 2.04 ............... 3.02 ............ O-rings
  J ......... 2.07 ............... 2.69          
  L ......... 2.07 ............... 2.98 .......... Molded piston
  D ........ 2.08 ............... 2.98 ............ O-rings
  P ......... 2.10 ............... 2.86 ........... Molded Piston
  H ........ 2.34 ................ 3.02 ........... O-rings
  R ........ 2.48 ................ 3.50 ........... O-rings
 
levers
 
A  ... 1.65:1
B .... 1.73:1
D .... 1.97:1
E .... 1.85:1
H .... 2.18:1
F .... 2.30:1
72 GT Ute
   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aquartlow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-December-2017 at 8:06AM
Great info Rock!
  Just a "heads-up" if anyone is potentially wants to use a Sonnax brand "R" servo, they usually require machining to fit the C6's servo bore correctly. I have heard (over on 429-460.com & 460ford.com)there needs to be about .007" removed from the sealing O-ring land. I, to this day, do not understand why Sonnax will not fix this issue and/or sell an item that needs extra machining to fit/work correctly. If an upgraded servo is wanted/needed, use a Superior Super Servo and re-use the factory stock servo spring, doing this and installing an "E" lever will help band apply/release timing and will give a more positive shift. Hope this helps. 
www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires.

No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t.

Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-December-2017 at 3:21PM
Great info guys. Sometime in the new year I will be rebuilding my c6 so I will be looking for advice here.
Vince

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Danno View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Danno Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-December-2017 at 5:11AM
Stock rebuild with exception of B&M Shift kit, set for Street Use, and going to a replacement fwd clutch with 5 friction discs.  Did not change servo.
End Play.  Spec says 8-44 thous.  Currently have a#2 select plastic washer on pump end (73 thous).  I am a little tight I think.  I measured about 10, but I don't really trust my set up of the dial gauge and just how hard are you supposed to pry with a screwdriver to move the drum.  I don't think you should have to pry so hard your veins bulge.  That's what I had to do to get 10 and who knows how much of that was due bad arrangement/placement/securing of dial.  And with pump torqued down, I could not turn shafts by hand.  As soon as you untorque, you can turn by hand.
 
So I will pull pump and valve body again and do a better job at setting up dial guage, plus I ordered a #1 washer today just in case (57 thou).  I think I will need that extra 16 thou to open it up.
 
Any thoughts on how hard you should pry?  I kind of think you should just wedge it in with minimal amount of force.
Danno
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aquartlow View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aquartlow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-December-2017 at 6:32AM
Try the Network 54 link, quite a few knowledgeable folks there, Stuarta, Jay Broader, Gregaust and Frank M are my "go to" C6 guys. I haven't built a C6 yet, but have learned quite a bit over on that website. There is also great info about rebuilding/modifying a C6 from Badshoe Productions, I believe there is also a link over on Network 54. Good luck.
www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires.

No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t.

Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-December-2017 at 12:24PM
from what i've seen done on checking clearence is pry the part away from the edge of the drum with normal force to compress the clutch discs and check clearence with a feeler gauge if possible to the end snapring??? but it sounds like you have a lack of clearence if it's binding up
JOHN
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