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Cleveland debate

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Eliteman76 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eliteman76 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Cleveland debate
    Posted: 10-January-2016 at 2:38PM
I've been having a bench wrenching debate as of late. Been discussing Mod engines as of late and I keep looking at a 6.2, backed with a Tremec TKO600.
Then I'm like keep it KISS and just rebuild the original 351c 4V CJ.

Part of me was also thinking one of the newer boss 351 crate engines that are stroked out a few cubes.

I am just wondering as a debate, update to the modern or stick with the caveman?

Part of me really likes the 6.2, run EFI and do a crown vic frame mod.

What say ye?
Andrew
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ilyes View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ilyes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-January-2016 at 11:59PM
I love my Cleveland, there is nothing quite like it. I have a decent built in 4v, and behave great on the street, plenty of low end even with 2.75 gear. Sounds good til 3K then it is just music from the angels.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-January-2016 at 12:45AM
In Ford's Own Words with a little help from G. Pence
http://www.network54.com/Forum/119419/thread/1242201921
 
the 351C was intended from the beginning to get a bump in displacement at some point
 
right engine, wrong time
72 GT Ute
   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nuggets Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-January-2016 at 1:46AM
You already know my answer about 351c motors ;)
Barnaby

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote unlovedford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-January-2016 at 2:12AM
Personally, I would go the a Coyote 5.0, 6 speed, CVPI frame. Built for racing, high rpm, easily modified and CVPI durability. 6.2 is essentially a truck engine.
Joe
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eliteman76 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-January-2016 at 4:15AM
I know but I think that 6.2 has some of the BEST modern valve covers, period.

For the money I was talking with Paul and his idea of going with a Truck 5.0, the HP rating is what, like 345 HP? For a street car that would still motorvate you darn well.

My biggest reservation is the whole caveman to new age...but I'm looking at wanting EFI.

Granted...my wallet is like "Keep dreaming jackass, build a garage first!"

Andrew
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote unlovedford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-January-2016 at 4:47AM
345 from the Coyote 5.0? The Mustang comes with 444 hp, and being a Modular design, it would be more adaptable to the Panther chassis. I do agree on the 6.2 covers. Nice.
Joe
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-January-2016 at 6:23AM

The 6.2L is from a different family than the mod motors.  I thought it was originally going to be a called the "Hurricane" engines, but now are called the "Boss".   I am not sure how much it has in common with a mod motor to make it work on a Crown Vic frame.  My BIL has a F-250 with the 385hp 6.2.  Moves that truck out okay, but I always felt that engine felt like a truck motor, slow to rev and didn't seem to like high RPM. The 5.0L truck engines were 360 hp until the new 2015+ aluminum trucks.  Now they are 385hp in trucks.

I am with Rock and Ilyes on this one.  I'd keep the 351C, but I like old school.  I think it'd be cool to do an EFI system on a 351C especially now that there's so many options out there. If you do go modern, I think the 5.0L might be the better choice though.
Vince

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-January-2016 at 6:52AM
modern = EcoBoost
 
"Also announced at the 2015 Detroit Auto Show was the 2017 Ford F-150 SVT Raptor, which is powered by an all-new 3.5 L twin-turbocharged EcoBoost V6. This new engine is expected to produce between 450 and 500 horsepower in the Raptor, up from the previous 6.2 L V8's 411. Torque is also expected to higher than the 434 lb-ft produced by the naturally aspirated 6.2 L Boss V8."
 
I saw somewhere that they're gonna have a near 700hp E/B V6, may already be out?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-January-2016 at 8:08AM
Originally posted by Rockatansky Rockatansky wrote:

modern = EcoBoost
 
"Also announced at the 2015 Detroit Auto Show was the 2017 Ford F-150 SVT Raptor, which is powered by an all-new 3.5 L twin-turbocharged EcoBoost V6. This new engine is expected to produce between 450 and 500 horsepower in the Raptor, up from the previous 6.2 L V8's 411. Torque is also expected to higher than the 434 lb-ft produced by the naturally aspirated 6.2 L Boss V8."
 
I saw somewhere that they're gonna have a near 700hp E/B V6, may already be out?
 
Maybe true, the Ecoboost is more modern.  But in my opinion, it would be just wrong for a car like this GTS to have anything but a V8. 
Vince

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-January-2016 at 8:20AM
that's what they're sayin about the Ford GT too
ha you just reminded me, that's probably where the big hp motor is gonna show up

Edited by Rockatansky - 11-January-2016 at 8:25AM
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ilyes View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ilyes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-January-2016 at 1:53PM
I'm sure adding an EFI system to a 351C would help mpg and power a bit, wil probably do so when I win the lottery.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lynchster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-January-2016 at 7:51AM
I like the newer fuel injection intake available for the Cleveland block. Given unlimited resources I'd probably be inclined to build an all aluminum fuel injected Cleveland with a newer 6 speed trans.
Chuck
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-January-2016 at 2:18PM
which intake do you mean?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Billy C Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-January-2016 at 8:45AM
Build a high reving Cleveland with a precisely tuned modern carb and go kick some ass. 
Unless you go fully sequential FI with a really good tune and environment compensations a tuned carb is going to easily keep up  in the power and reliability department. Solid roller, aluminum heads, high compression, and T56. The TKO will never stand a chance at 7000rpm.


Edited by Billy C - 18-January-2016 at 8:47AM
-Billy Conturo
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lynchster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-January-2016 at 6:01PM
Originally posted by Rockatansky Rockatansky wrote:

which intake do you mean?

It was one I saw looked like a (newer) factory intake with the ports down the middle and set up for a Ford style upper plenum.


http://www.summitracing.com/parts/TFS-51611116/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cggrob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-January-2016 at 8:01AM
This 351C stroker (410 ci - 4" stroke and 0.040" overbore) in my 1970 Mustang with a 750cfm DP makes 531HP @ 5800 and 536 ft-lbs @ 4600 with over 400 ft-lbs available at 3000 rpm - heck of a street motor with plenty of torque even for a heavy Torino.  In it for just at $10k or so.  I just finished swapping the 2003 Cobra S/C terminator motor into my Marauder.  The 351C will make more power at less cost overall with a lot less work (read gobs of wiring!) than any of those other modern motors and will fit the car and reduce the number of modifications needed to the vehicle - again a lot less work.  I would go with the 351C. The terminator motor from a junk car I got for $6900 with the 6 speed and computer and harness out of Florida but going rate around here is $11k and you will need a lot, lot more to get it into the Torino - new power distribution, electric fuel pump, on and on - I know.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote unlovedford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-January-2016 at 8:26AM
I'll bet that is a screamer.^^

Andy, if you are keeping the Torino frame, then I would build a Cleveland. Never been a fan of the Cleveland until I got the Cougar. The 4 speed CJ GTS I had was just raw and sounded good, but truthfully, C's TL would smoke it. Heck, even my Titan would leave it sitting. Let's face it, less than 300 horses in a 4400 pound car with no modern stuff can only do so much. The Cougar's Cleveland was less powerful, but was just smooth as silk, reliable, and did what was asked of it. Felt like it had quite a bit of potential and changed how I felt about the 385 series.

However, if you are going with a Panther frame, especially a 2003-up CVPI, I would highly advise going with a 5.0 Coyote. Like Rob said about modifying the Torino for a Modular, the same applies in reverse for a Panther frame and a 385 series engine. The newer engine families are drop-in-place for that newer chassis, and parts are just everywhere. The new 5.0 following is just as strong as the original 5.0 Fox platform following, but so much easier to get more bang for your buck. 5.0 with an underhood supercharger equals 500-600 horsepower. Reliable horsepower without having to spend weekends under the hood tuning or fiddling. Buy, place, plug, and play. Tune it with a laptop however you want.
Joe
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-January-2016 at 3:37PM
nice!! ^^^ love those wheels!
JOHN
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cggrob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-January-2016 at 3:14AM
Originally posted by californiajohnny californiajohnny wrote:

nice!! ^^^ love those wheels!
 
Billet Specialities SL-500 I want to say.  SL for soft lip - blends seamlessly from bead lock area into the rest of the rim of the wheel.  High buck but really nice.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eliteman76 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-January-2016 at 3:44AM
Interesting thoughts.
As you guys know I built my car as a long haul driver not just in town toy.
I use my car and flog the weee out of her.
I've looked at trickflo's efi upper and lower intake recently but the hood clearance issues leave me lacking for an idea.
Truthfully if I had the $8.5k laying around I'd go get a hilborn type 8 stack efi setup. That is truly what I want on top on my original CJ. Then toss on a March serp belt front runner system.
Aero motive pump in a new ss tank.
All new electrical system.

Andrew
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eliteman76 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-January-2016 at 3:46AM
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