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Cooling Fan Parasitic Losses--Wow!

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Don V. View Drop Down
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    Posted: 14-August-2017 at 11:18AM
I came across this while researching a new radiator for the truck. It's something everyone knows but I never would have guessed what a dyno shows.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ilyes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-August-2017 at 2:33PM
Oh yeah, I put my fly swatter back until I get a new alternator and Mercedes fan. It cools great, all the time but past 4k, I can definitely feel it. Though if you don't need every horses, it is kind of a bullet proof design.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fordpower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-August-2017 at 2:37PM
Very interesting watched one on exhaust and heads also
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-August-2017 at 2:39PM
I have seen that video before.  The results are a little different than this old article below.  In any case it can be summed up, direct drive fan = bad, flex fan = bad, mechanical clutch fan = better, thermal clutch = best mechanical fan, and of course electric is least power robbing overall.
What I like about the below article, it shows power loss at the lower and higher RPM's.  It's not until the high RPM that you really see serious power loss.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrSmog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-August-2017 at 2:42PM
I am curious if less blades rob less hp? I would think so but not sure.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-August-2017 at 2:47PM
Originally posted by MrSmog MrSmog wrote:

I am curious if less blades rob less hp? I would think so but not sure.
 
I would think blade pitch and surface area would be more critical than the actual number of blades.  Check out my post above, they test a ton of different fans.  It's a little more detail IMO than the Motor Trend TV video.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrSmog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-August-2017 at 2:58PM
Originally posted by 72FordGTS 72FordGTS wrote:

Originally posted by MrSmog MrSmog wrote:

I am curious if less blades rob less hp? I would think so but not sure.
 
I would think blade pitch and surface area would be more critical than the actual number of blades.  Check out my post above, they test a ton of different fans.  It's a little more detail IMO than the Motor Trend TV video.


I'm thinkin more along the lines of factory stock fans. I plan to put a thermal clutch fan on this little 302 in my torino now and probably use it on the 351cj when I swap that in for 99% of drivin, but at the pure stock  drags I will have to run a factory fan. Just curious if there was any hp advantage of a 4 blade over a 5 blade. Looks like above in the print article it robbed 23hp vs 30 in the vid, but of course thats not really apples to oranges. Wonder if lower hp engines are labored more then a higher hp engine, or the hp loss is the same regardless?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Don V. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-August-2017 at 11:28PM
"Meet the new boss, same as the old boss."
 
I'm still surprised by the amount of power loss. I've seen and read about research in to the effects of mass on power when using iron, aluminum and titanium in the engine and drivetrain. Typically the power loss to mass is somewhere around 5 to 8 hp for every 25 lbs. Considering the rules for the conservation of energy some of these fans with their static resistance are weighing 100+ lbs. Without regurgitating a lot of considerations I think this brings up the old debate about why the GT40 cooling system was so efficient. More surface area because of the orientation of the radiators or did the design allow for more efficient evacuation of the fan's static pressure? The thought in the design was surface area.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Don V. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-August-2017 at 11:33PM
Originally posted by fordpower fordpower wrote:

Very interesting watched one on exhaust and heads also
 
What did you think of them? I saw an H pipe for a video and I've always wondered what their purpose was?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Don V. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-August-2017 at 11:50PM
Originally posted by MrSmog<br>I'm thinkin more along the lines of factory stock fans. I plan to put a thermal clutch fan on this little 302 in my torino now and probably use it on the 351cj when I swap that in for 99% of drivin, but at the pure stock  drags I will have to run a factory fan. Just curious if there was any hp advantage of a 4 blade over a 5 blade. Looks like above in the print article it robbed 23hp vs 30 in the vid, but of course thats not really apples to oranges. Wonder if lower hp engines are labored more then a higher hp engine, or the hp loss is the same regardless?<br>[/QUOTE MrSmog
I'm thinkin more along the lines of factory stock fans. I plan to put a thermal clutch fan on this little 302 in my torino now and probably use it on the 351cj when I swap that in for 99% of drivin, but at the pure stock  drags I will have to run a factory fan. Just curious if there was any hp advantage of a 4 blade over a 5 blade. Looks like above in the print article it robbed 23hp vs 30 in the vid, but of course thats not really apples to oranges. Wonder if lower hp engines are labored more then a higher hp engine, or the hp loss is the same regardless?
[/QUOTE wrote:


 
After seeing this I think I'd risk the $15 on one of the ebay electrics from China just to see what happens. I also have a feeling this has nothing or little to do with the engine and it's about the fan and car. Might be worth trying the submarine route also? For "quiet" they went to an inefficient but quiet screw and spun the RPM way up. They stayed quiet and are faster then ever. Kind of like what F1 did with the "super under square" engine. 
 
After seeing this I think I'd risk the $15 on one of the ebay electrics from China just to see what happens. I also have a feeling this has nothing or little to do with the engine and it's about the fan and car. Might be worth trying the submarine route also? For "quiet" they went to an inefficient but quiet screw and spun the RPM way up. They stayed quiet and are faster then ever. Kind of like what F1 did with the "super under square" engine. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrSmog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-August-2017 at 4:15AM
Originally posted by Don V. Don V. wrote:

Originally posted by MrSmog<br>I'm thinkin more along the lines of factory stock fans. I plan to put a thermal clutch fan on this little 302 in my torino now and probably use it on the 351cj when I swap that in for 99% of drivin, but at the pure stock  drags I will have to run a factory fan. Just curious if there was any hp advantage of a 4 blade over a 5 blade. Looks like above in the print article it robbed 23hp vs 30 in the vid, but of course thats not really apples to oranges. Wonder if lower hp engines are labored more then a higher hp engine, or the hp loss is the same regardless?<br></td></tr></table>
<div> </div><div>After seeing this I think I'd risk the $15 on one of the ebay electrics from China just to see what happens. I also have a feeling this has nothing or little to do with the engine and it's about the fan and car. Might be worth trying the submarine route also? For quiet they went to an inefficient but quiet screw and spun the RPM way up. They stayed quiet and are faster then ever. Kind of like what F1 did with the super under square engine. </div>[/QUOTE MrSmog
I'm thinkin more along the lines of factory stock fans. I plan to put a thermal clutch fan on this little 302 in my torino now and probably use it on the 351cj when I swap that in for 99% of drivin, but at the pure stock  drags I will have to run a factory fan. Just curious if there was any hp advantage of a 4 blade over a 5 blade. Looks like above in the print article it robbed 23hp vs 30 in the vid, but of course thats not really apples to oranges. Wonder if lower hp engines are labored more then a higher hp engine, or the hp loss is the same regardless?
 
After seeing this I think I'd risk the $15 on one of the ebay electrics from China just to see what happens. I also have a feeling this has nothing or little to do with the engine and it's about the fan and car. Might be worth trying the submarine route also? For quiet they went to an inefficient but quiet screw and spun the RPM way up. They stayed quiet and are faster then ever. Kind of like what F1 did with the super under square engine. 
[/QUOTE wrote:



yes a electric fan is of course the route to go for as little hp loss as possible if you don't care about stock looks but you misunderstand what I am interested in, heres a link to the rules for the pure stock drags class on coolin systems.   http://www.psmcdr.com/11.html


yes a electric fan is of course the route to go for as little hp loss as possible if you don't care about stock looks but you misunderstand what I am interested in, heres a link to the rules for the pure stock drags class on coolin systems.   http://www.psmcdr.com/11.html


Edited by MrSmog - 15-August-2017 at 4:15AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Don V. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-August-2017 at 5:07AM
Mr. Smog,
 
Thanks for that link. I'm familiar with various classes of Rally, RallyCross and score along with some other odds and ends but I've never looked at any drag racing. I use to work with Jim Thorton too.
 
I caught on to your concern with the rules but I got impression you were dealing with multiple cars and had plans for swapping some things around. Seemed to me a good time to see how some options might effect your car. My experience with racing is everyone is always looking for an advantage by pushing the rules. Have you ever seen fan blade angle or fan pulley size measured? Also, if I had considered the electric fan as something permanent I never would have never suggested a $15 fan from China.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrSmog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-August-2017 at 5:56AM
Originally posted by Don V. Don V. wrote:

Mr. Smog,
 
Thanks for that link. I'm familiar with various classes of Rally, RallyCross and score along with some other odds and ends but I've never looked at any drag racing. I use to work with Jim Thorton too.
 
I caught on to your concern with the rules but I got impression you were dealing with multiple cars and had plans for swapping some things around. Seemed to me a good time to see how some options might effect your car. My experience with racing is everyone is always looking for an advantage by pushing the rules. Have you ever seen fan blade angle or fan pulley size measured? Also, if I had considered the electric fan as something permanent I never would have never suggested a $15 fan from China.  


not sure where you are in Mich, but you should come check the pure stocks out if you want to kill some time. I'm gonna try like heck to get up there this year, even if I can't bring my father which was the intention due to his health problems recently. Hope to run my car there within a couple years. They do seem to keep an eye on things to keep the class fair and fun but I'm sure many use the gray area to run anything they can which might give them a little hp. Its not a heads up class so overall elapsed time doesn't matter but of course everyone wants to put the best time down they can.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Don V. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-August-2017 at 2:59AM
Do you know where Milan Dragway is? I'm about a half hour to 40 minutes minutes away unless it's a busy season for the farmers. Then it could be as much as 2 hours away.  When is the event? I'm usually gone for most of the fall but I could be up for it since you say it's for fun. No offense, but most drivers suck. If there is a god he invented professional, competitive drivers so the professional, competitive whiners could be herded to a common place. When you do get to participate, I'll be there.
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http://www.psmcdr.com/5.html

there's the event info. Its about 2 hrs north of you or so I think. I lived in N Mich many years ago as a teen, up around Tawas/oscoda area. If I do get to go this year I'll spend a couple days at the drags and then run up north to see some old friends. Milan is where they used to have the super chevy events wasn't it?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-August-2017 at 1:47PM
Originally posted by MrSmog MrSmog wrote:


I'm thinkin more along the lines of factory stock fans. I plan to put a thermal clutch fan on this little 302 in my torino now and probably use it on the 351cj when I swap that in for 99% of drivin, but at the pure stock  drags I will have to run a factory fan. Just curious if there was any hp advantage of a 4 blade over a 5 blade. Looks like above in the print article it robbed 23hp vs 30 in the vid, but of course thats not really apples to oranges. Wonder if lower hp engines are labored more then a higher hp engine, or the hp loss is the same regardless?
 
If you have to run a stock fan, then I am pretty certain the 4-blade fan would use the least power.  It has the least cooling power, which means it moves the least air and would draw the least power. Even looking at the test above, it is 4-blade fan that uses the least power (of the direct drive). 
 
I would think that in terms of how much horsepower it would be the same regardless of what engine it is installed on.  It would require the same amount of energy to turn the fan at the same RPM, it doesn't care what's spinning it.  It does seem that the amount of power a fan consumes is proportional to the RPM it's spinning, at least that's how it looks from the magazine test. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote changinlatitudes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-August-2017 at 6:16AM
Guess I'll be tossing my plastic flex. Geez.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aquartlow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-August-2017 at 12:42AM
I do not doubt the above findings about HP loses after switching from a mechanical 7 blade clutch fan assembly. I have been running a dual electric cooling fan assembly sourced from a '98 Ford Windstar for some time now, it cools my 472BBF very well even with running my A/C in traffic here in central Florida during summer temps. I see more stable cooling temps, better A/C performance, faster engine "spool-up"(biggest surprise), a slight increase in useable power as well as a bump in MPG's. I will never go back to a mechanical fan if there is an option for an electric cooling fan to do the job. The only drawbacks I have realized from my install was the initial costs for the parts and the wiring involved, but the advantages far outweigh these points.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-August-2017 at 1:59AM
Switch to an electric water pump, and save another 25HP!

I'm going to be switching from the factory fan and water pump to electric to run at the Colorado Mile in a couple of weeks.  Using a Chevy HHR fan, and fitting it inside the factory shroud to retain some semblance of factory appearance, and I'm going to use a Mr. Gasket electric water pump conversion which drives the factory pump with an externally mounted electric motor and belt.

The elec fan will be permanent (if it keeps it cool), and the elec water pump will be swapped in/out as needed for race or street use.


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