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BadHabit351
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Topic: Edelbrock 1411 or 1406 Carbs Posted: 22-June-2021 at 3:50AM |
First of all, I cut my teeth tuning Carter carbs and Quadrajets. I not only prefer tuning them, but Holley's tend to blow out valves too often as well as I could never keep the floats adjusted. I also love the "set it & forget it" of Edelbrock / Carter carbs. This is not intended to be a Holley vs Edelbrock debate.
With that out of the way; on to the main subject.
I have had a lean stumble for 3 years that I've tried to work out occasionally. It got worse after my ignition upgrade. Engine is a 393 C stroker with 302C heads that have been blended and massaged. I have a Crane cam with full roller rockers. It has a RPM AirGap intake and a 1411 750 cfm carb. I also have a TKO 600 trans with 3.55 9" It's always started and ran great at cruise mode, but if you nail the throttle at less than 2000 rpm; it stumbles badly. I tune my carb by the plug readings.
I decided last weekend; I was going to fix the damn thing come hell or high water. I spent most of the day testing & tuning. About 3 pm (when I went as rich as I possibly could), I discovered a blurb on the Edelbrock website:
The Edelbrock Performer series #1406 & #1411 carburetors are calibrated lean for fuel economy and in most cases, will not function properly on Performer RPM & Torker style manifolds. Most people think you can just change the calibration of the carburetor and turn it into one of the Edelbrock performance carbs. This is not the case as the Venturi boosters are also different and Edelbrock does not sell Venturi booster separately. In most cases when using one of our economy style carbs on a Performer RPM or Torker style intakes will cause hesitations and surging in the lower RPM range.
Just a heads up for those who may be considering one of these carbs. I took my carb off and put it back to stock configuration. I installed it on my brother in-laws 351W (RV type cam, headers, '69 heads that have been ported, performer intake [not Performer RPM]), took it for a spin and it was a smooth as a baby's butt in all facets of operation.
Tomorrow I will recieve my Edelbrock AVS2 800 cfm carb.
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1973/72 Gran Torino Sport 1971 Torino GT convertilble 2013 Ford Fusion 2004 Ford SuperDuty 2013 Mustang GT
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Rockatansky
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Posted: 22-June-2021 at 5:53AM |
Yup, a lot of guys buy the emissions calibrated versions for a street performance application and can never get them tuned. at one time Edelbrock included the 'Lean Calibration' info in the description for each of the carbs but it no longer appears that can find. to top it off it seems that tech assistance resources that should have this info apparently don't and these carbs get sold into street performance applications all the time. Shame On Edelbrock for not making this info more widely available & known
now that i think of it, i read a popular engine builder / tuner posted regarding Edelbrock carbs being produced defectively, they run lean and can not be calibrated or even modified to flow enough fuel to correct the lean running issue. i'll bet he's been working with the lean calibrated from the factory carbs
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72 GT Ute
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Big Bird
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Posted: 22-June-2021 at 11:20AM |
You can't get the venturis seperately, but if you hoard old carbs, you can make some interesting Frankensteins. Similar to working on 2100/2150 Ford 2 Bbl carbs. Also, the Eddys don't seem to appreciate ethanol in the gas.
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"What we do in full frontal view, is more honest than your cleaned-up mind." Randy 1979 T-Bird 2005 F-150 STX RCSB 4.6, 3.55 LSD How the Heck does a REGULAR CAB SHORTBED weigh over 5200 pounds?
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72 RS 351
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Posted: 22-June-2021 at 12:21PM |
Interesting. Holley's were always thought to be hipo carbs and didn't need major adjusting etc. But digging deep into "how to tune" writings, I found that most Holley carbs also have limited adjustments available for all circuits. The transition circuits are usually rather lean for a given carb and flow size, so when you try to push it on a "bigger" combo, the transition falters.
I took notes from those tuning papers, and I altered a 600 Holley, the basic model, I added a rear metering block, and drilled down the top of the front block to add replaceable transition jets. I ended up with a nice running mild 351W that got decent fuel mileage, and had great response. It was a fun project and learning experience. But the fuel filter wasn't very good and let something pass three times, plugging the needle/seat open each time. I had prior issues with that engine, and a roughness returned(was a failed cam lobe before). So I pulled the engine and swapped a 1989 Mustang HO engine into the car. That was my last carb work, now I've got a temperamental 351C-4V and an Edelbrock carb.
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Don 73 Ranchero "Sport 72 front end", floor shift/console, planning EFI 7000+ rpm 351-4V &4R70W 73 Ranchero GT 351C-4V &4R70W for sale later. 92 Lincoln Mark VII SE GTC, OBDII 347/4R70W
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BadHabit351
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Joined: 21-June-2013
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Posted: 23-June-2021 at 12:50AM |
72 RS 351 wrote:
Interesting. Holley's were always thought to be hipo carbs and didn't need major adjusting etc. But digging deep into "how to tune" writings, I found that most Holley carbs also have limited adjustments available for all circuits. The transition circuits are usually rather lean for a given carb and flow size, so when you try to push it on a "bigger" combo, the transition falters.
I took notes from those tuning papers, and I altered a 600 Holley, the basic model, I added a rear metering block, and drilled down the top of the front block to add replaceable transition jets. I ended up with a nice running mild 351W that got decent fuel mileage, and had great response. It was a fun project and learning experience. But the fuel filter wasn't very good and let something pass three times, plugging the needle/seat open each time. I had prior issues with that engine, and a roughness returned(was a failed cam lobe before). So I pulled the engine and swapped a 1989 Mustang HO engine into the car. That was my last carb work, now I've got a temperamental 351C-4V and an Edelbrock carb.
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My research has indicated that the new Edelbrock AVS2 is as close to EFI as a carb can get. I will let you know what my results are. They are available in 650 cfm & 800 cfm. Per Edelbrock; 650 cfm is good for small blocks and stock big blocks. 800 cfm is for small blocks over 400 hp and big blocks up to 600 hp.
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1973/72 Gran Torino Sport 1971 Torino GT convertilble 2013 Ford Fusion 2004 Ford SuperDuty 2013 Mustang GT
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72 RS 351
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Posted: 23-June-2021 at 1:51AM |
I hope that works great for you. I saw an interesting carb 30min show recently that compared three models. The Summit carb did the best OOTB, was the cheapest, and after adjusting was just a hair better than the other two. The others were a similar low end Edelbrock, and a Demon model, prices they said were in the $340-$450 range I think it was.
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Don 73 Ranchero "Sport 72 front end", floor shift/console, planning EFI 7000+ rpm 351-4V &4R70W 73 Ranchero GT 351C-4V &4R70W for sale later. 92 Lincoln Mark VII SE GTC, OBDII 347/4R70W
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Rockatansky
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Posted: 23-June-2021 at 11:05AM |
BadHabit351 wrote:
.... as close to EFI as a carb can get ... |
i'd have to say you're describing a Kendig / Predator carb, un ingbelievable throttle response. they were even hyped by the inventor and in sales ads as Injectors, and NHRA even classified them as injection due to pressure from Holley to get them banned. it worked
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72 GT Ute
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72FordGTS
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Posted: 25-June-2021 at 1:01PM |
This is a great post, thanks. I am not overly familiar with Edelbrock/Carter AFB style carbs, so I am interested in your feedback on the new carb. I also cut my teeth on Quadrajets. Everyone said they were the toughest to tune, but I always got them to run decently.
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Vince
1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car
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BadHabit351
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Joined: 21-June-2013
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Posted: 28-June-2021 at 2:06AM |
Got my carb installed Saturday.
Out of the box is pretty good. I pulled the top & checked the floats. They were dead on. Installed the carb, set the choke, fired it up. Set my fuel pressure regulator to 5.75 psi. Leaned out the choke a bit and brought the choke idle speed down the 1300. Let it warm up; set hot idle speed to 700 rpm. Tuned the idle mixure and took it for a spin.
The throttle response is fabulous. It's very smooth. I drove for 5 miles to ensure everything was to operationg temp; then did a few hard runs to go back & do a plug check.
I needed to fatten it up 1 stage rich on cruise and 2 stages rich on full throttle. It needed the pump shot moved one hole to get a bigger jump on initial "punch" of the throttle.
After several more runs under different conditions and plug checks; the plugs are a nice bronze color and it is as smooth as this 393C has ever been.
I'm happy with my purchase. All in for under $500 incliuding the tuning kit.
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1973/72 Gran Torino Sport 1971 Torino GT convertilble 2013 Ford Fusion 2004 Ford SuperDuty 2013 Mustang GT
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72 RS 351
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Posted: 28-June-2021 at 2:19AM |
That's awesome, it sounds like a great result and I hope you love it.
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Don 73 Ranchero "Sport 72 front end", floor shift/console, planning EFI 7000+ rpm 351-4V &4R70W 73 Ranchero GT 351C-4V &4R70W for sale later. 92 Lincoln Mark VII SE GTC, OBDII 347/4R70W
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Exodus BKG
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Posted: 06-July-2021 at 5:09PM |
Just my 2 cents, FST Carbs makes a great value carb for high performance classics.
FST41650 Outperforms and outclasses the 1406 Edelbrock I had in my Torino by a mile.
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Billy C
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Posted: 07-July-2021 at 3:37PM |
Isn't the FST more of a Holley design though? If we are staying in Q-jet land, that's pretty much off the table.
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-Billy Conturo
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72FordGTS
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Posted: 19-March-2022 at 12:22PM |
Just following up. How do you like you AVS2 carb now that you've had it for a while?
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Vince
1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car
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BadHabit351
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Posted: 21-March-2022 at 12:10AM |
I have to admit, that is one $500 well spent. I've moved the fuel around a little bit to get it fine tuned as I can. I haven't touched it since early August. Edelbrock has come up with a fine carb. Rock solid consistency; which is what I was after. Typically, you have to play with the choke is big temp changes...I didn't have to touch it this past winter.
To be fair; I only took it out on "nicer" days this winter. I did, however, have to move it out of the shop to get another vehicle moved in. It started with the temp @ 21 degrees and after just a few minutes warm up was running well.
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1973/72 Gran Torino Sport 1971 Torino GT convertilble 2013 Ford Fusion 2004 Ford SuperDuty 2013 Mustang GT
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AUS GTS
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Posted: 21-March-2022 at 8:45AM |
My CJ Clevo came with the 1406 & Performer intake on it & was running quite crappy, but after a couple of sessions fiddling around, it now runs quite good. A spacer or similar may be of benefit cause only probs i've had is hot starts. Warm climate here too. Will be using one i have tucked away. I do have a new Quickfuel 750 vs sitting here that i will try out soon.
Edited by AUS GTS - 21-March-2022 at 9:08AM
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Al
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72FordGTS
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Posted: 21-March-2022 at 10:55AM |
Thanks for the feedback. Sounds like a great carb.
I hadn't looked at this AVS2 carbs until I reasd Badhabit's post. Looking into them, they seem to have a pretty good design. Like a Q-Jet, they have an adjustable air door for the secondaries with mecahnically controlled secondary butterflies.. This design itself seems to be big improvment over the traditional AFB design with the weighted doors. But the coolest part about the AVS2 is the annular boosters. From some of the information I read about these, the vastly improved atomization seems to have significant affect on the part throttle response. For someone like me that does lots of street driving, this carb does sound appealing.
Edited by 72FordGTS - 21-March-2022 at 1:28PM
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Vince
1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car
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72 RS 351
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Posted: 21-March-2022 at 11:11AM |
I checked on it earlier and it looks to be unavailable until July, even the rebuilt versions(19129 or 19139(electric choke)). The difference is $40 for the rebuilt units.
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Don 73 Ranchero "Sport 72 front end", floor shift/console, planning EFI 7000+ rpm 351-4V &4R70W 73 Ranchero GT 351C-4V &4R70W for sale later. 92 Lincoln Mark VII SE GTC, OBDII 347/4R70W
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Rockatansky
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Posted: 21-March-2022 at 2:07PM |
anybody seen the new Edelbrock 4150 carb?
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72 GT Ute
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AUS GTS
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Posted: 21-March-2022 at 2:15PM |
George Pence always sings the praises of annular boosters, I've noticed Vince.
Yes Rockatansky, only became aware of them recently but havent sussed them yet.
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Al
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Eliteman76
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Posted: 26-March-2022 at 7:38PM |
from my experience, I have run a 1406 600cfm on my 1971 2v 351c that’s been in my GTS, and in a Ford elite for the last 25 years. You know what I’ve had to do to it in all that time? Swap in a lighter sling and needle set to give it more fuel and that also cured my surging issues. It took less than 5 minutes. No pulling bowls, etc off the carb. I’ve read a bunch on the AVS but wondered why no 700-750cfm sized version. Now my application, originally was 4 speed with 3.50’s and then swapped to 2.75’s after 2010 Powertour. No overdrive it was brutal. Now with a tremec 5 speed, and the 2.75’s it’s surreal how it’s behaved. I’ve had issue in the last year of starvation that I attribute to a load of crap quality fuel in Illinois. Horribly nasty foul smelling 91 octane. Took me multiple tanks to get that smell cycled out of the car.
I recently actually got a newer 670 Holley from a buddy who had it on his Pontiac 400. I’ll be curious as I’ve never been a Holley guy. The edlebrock carb has always treated me well. After doing some horse trading of stuff, I just have to pull it open, going to put trash gaskets as it’s been sitting around 2? Years on a shelf and had fuel in it that dried up.
My only complaint on the edlebrock was fuel bowl drain back. I have to sit and crank on it for few seconds to start to pull fuel when the Gts sits for more than a week. My ‘79 f series was worse and more cold blooded with its 1405. But once that truck warmed up, man the little 1405 Edlebrock was great for that stock rebuilt truck engine. Huge improvement over towing a car trailer.
Side note: that 1405 came off my ‘84 F150 302, with an rpm air gap. That little 302 was an absolute screamer with the rpm air gap and 1405.
Only other thing that came to mine was years back before I got the GTS Pretty and it was in the Joe dirt stage, had a really hard launch on the street. Hot July summer day. I shook the car bad from axle wrap hard enough I was sliding the back of the car all over two lanes of traffic for a bit from led foot burnout shenannigans. Car ended up vapor locking on me evidently. I swapped to a 3/8” AN line and pushlok hose from the pump to the carb and eliminated that potential issue from happening again.
I am getting ready to update some things, possible engine swap this fall so I have a new 1/2” fuel line coming for the Gts along with a 5/16” vapor return line.
I am Also going to get a new tank, modified pickup and likely going to Upgrade the tank with a Holley hydromat in the tank, because we don’t have a baffled tank and the hydromat seems like killer stuff designed to wick every last ounce of fuel.
I will say after seeing the retrofit on my brother’s 1983 Jeep CJ7, with a Holley Sniper efi, it is amazing the difference in performance. I’m all about the simplicity of a carb but wow.
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Andrew:GTS.ORG admin, '72 Q code 5 speed Restomod Pondering: #99Problems
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72 RS 351
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Posted: 27-March-2022 at 3:10AM |
Eliteman76 wrote:
from my experience, I have run a 1406 600cfm on my 1971 2v 351c that’s been in my GTS, and in a Ford elite for the last 25 years.You know what I’ve had to do to it in all that time? Swap in a lighter sling and needle set to give it more fuel and that also cured my surging issues. It took less than 5 minutes. No pulling bowls, etc off the carb. I’ve read a bunch on the AVS but wondered why no 700-750cfm sized version. Now my application, originally was 4 speed with 3.50’s and then swapped to 2.75’s after 2010 Powertour. No overdrive it was brutal. Now with a tremec 5 speed, and the 2.75’s it’s surreal how it’s behaved. I’ve had issue in the last year of starvation that I attribute to a load of crap quality fuel in Illinois. Horribly nasty foul smelling 91 octane. Took me multiple tanks to get that smell cycled out of the car.
I recently actually got a newer 670 Holley from a buddy who had it on his Pontiac 400. I’ll be curious as I’ve never been a Holley guy. The edlebrock carb has always treated me well. After doing some horse trading of stuff, I just have to pull it open, going to put trash gaskets as it’s been sitting around 2? Years on a shelf and had fuel in it that dried up.
My only complaint on the edlebrock was fuel bowl drain back. I have to sit and crank on it for few seconds to start to pull fuel when the Gts sits for more than a week. My ‘79 f series was worse and more cold blooded with its 1405. But once that truck warmed up, man the little 1405 Edlebrock was great for that stock rebuilt truck engine. Huge improvement over towing a car trailer.
Side note: that 1405 came off my ‘84 F150 302, with an rpm air gap. That little 302 was an absolute screamer with the rpm air gap and 1405.
Only other thing that came to mine was years back before I got the GTS Pretty and it was in the Joe dirt stage, had a really hard launch on the street. Hot July summer day. I shook the car bad from axle wrap hard enough I was sliding the back of the car all over two lanes of traffic for a bit from led foot burnout shenannigans. Car ended up vapor locking on me evidently. I swapped to a 3/8” AN line and pushlok hose from the pump to the carb and eliminated that potential issue from happening again.
I am getting ready to update some things, possible engine swap this fall so I have a new 1/2” fuel line coming for the Gts along with a 5/16” vapor return line.
I am Also going to get a new tank, modified pickup and likely going to Upgrade the tank with a Holley hydromat in the tank, because we don’t have a baffled tank and the hydromat seems like killer stuff designed to wick every last ounce of fuel.
I will say after seeing the retrofit on my brother’s 1983 Jeep CJ7, with a Holley Sniper efi, it is amazing the difference in performance. I’m all about the simplicity of a carb but wow. |
That's a great post, thanks for all of that. I just received the RPM Air Gap intake for my running 351C, and the Edelbrock carb is the only problem I have had so far. I think mine may be having the bowls low on every start, I've avoided driving it from that.
I have the original Holley TBI 4-hole unit, and that is likely my best choice for this engine. I gather that it's an unloved EFI, old tech and hard to adjust etc. But for my purpose and no future need, it should be fine if I can make the time to adjust it.
The fuel lines do need special attention, they always did have tendencies for vapor lock after modifications. The large fuel line to the carb and a strong fuel pump should be key items.
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Don 73 Ranchero "Sport 72 front end", floor shift/console, planning EFI 7000+ rpm 351-4V &4R70W 73 Ranchero GT 351C-4V &4R70W for sale later. 92 Lincoln Mark VII SE GTC, OBDII 347/4R70W
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Eliteman76
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Posted: 27-March-2022 at 9:29AM |
I picked up the McRobb 351C fuel pump, regulator, and these are nice pieces. I just decided for me, if I am replacing the main 3/8" line, I will add a 5/16" vapor return. It also helps when it comes time if I elect to do a snipper conversion.
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Andrew:GTS.ORG admin, '72 Q code 5 speed Restomod Pondering: #99Problems
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72 RS 351
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Posted: 27-March-2022 at 10:21AM |
Thanks for the nudge before about fuel pressure, I searched some more about the EFI pressure, and pump, I would need. I found that mine is a Pro-jection 4 and runs at 15psi, plus I found a couple of forum posts for adjusting it well. It seems like I should be able to do it in a short time once the pump and everything is installed right. Those old systems only had a TPS, and four fuel adjustment screws, for choke, idle, mid range, and WOT. Set the TPS to .63 volts, set the idle, reset the TPS, then the idle screw, TPS, mid range, WOT, and choke time setting.
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Don 73 Ranchero "Sport 72 front end", floor shift/console, planning EFI 7000+ rpm 351-4V &4R70W 73 Ranchero GT 351C-4V &4R70W for sale later. 92 Lincoln Mark VII SE GTC, OBDII 347/4R70W
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Eliteman76
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Posted: 27-March-2022 at 12:24PM |
McRobb makes a surge tank setup that might do well with that.
I have a few thoughts on the fuel system, however honestly, I think you could easily do a Phantom EFI in tank pump.
I noticed CJ Pony Parts makes an EFI conversion kit, might be doable through the 72-73 tank vent opening in the top of the tank.
Otherwise, I had compared my 1995 F150 rear tank to the 72-73 torino tank, and size wise they are close. Filler neck locations are an issue however. But it would be really easy to adapt a standard 90's F series fuel pump in my mind, with some adapters to go from the OEM pushlock efi hose fittings, and swap to AN fitting adapters.
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Andrew:GTS.ORG admin, '72 Q code 5 speed Restomod Pondering: #99Problems
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72FordGTS
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Posted: 27-March-2022 at 12:39PM |
For those of you with the Eddy carbs, do the stock Ford air cleaners fit? In particular the larger style used on the 351-4V, 400 and 429?
I have been thinking about investing in a McRobb pump after the issues I had with aftermarket mechanical pumps. I am just not 100% sure it will clear the stock P/S pulley setup on a 400. I think it will...
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Vince
1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car
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Eliteman76
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Posted: 27-March-2022 at 1:14PM |
Vince- Fitment isn't an issue. Biggest headache with the McRobb fuel pump is the FL1A oil filter is basically touching the pump body. My concern will be fitment with my CVF racing belt drive. I have the Beast system installed...I am hoping with a Saginaw steering pump I have more room than stock Ford Thompson pumps. But I have a feeling it's a complete non-issue.
Regarding the fitment, I used a filter seal for a stock carb, and slightly loose but no issues.
I switched to my aftermarket drop base air cleaner as I wanted something different than the OEM air cleaner however.
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Andrew:GTS.ORG admin, '72 Q code 5 speed Restomod Pondering: #99Problems
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AUS GTS
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Posted: 27-March-2022 at 2:56PM |
72FordGTS wrote:
For those of you with the Eddy carbs, do the stock Ford air cleaners fit? In particular the larger style used on the 351-4V, 400 and 429?
I have been thinking about investing in a McRobb pump after the issues I had with aftermarket mechanical pumps. I am just not 100% sure it will clear the stock P/S pulley setup on a 400. I think it will... |
yep stock CJ on mine ATM
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Al
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