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Engine and Trans build, engine compartment detail

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    Posted: 10-September-2017 at 2:58AM
Finally, after years of saving, I have come to the point where I am ready to build my 400 for my GTS. I am hoping to get some advice from some of the more experienced engine guys here.


First off, the car has been in the family since day one, and will never leave the family. So I want to build this one right. Currently the engine is pretty stock, an Edelbrock Intake, Holley 670 SA carb, double roller timing chain, and some minor ignition upgrades. It has about 150K on it, and runs decent, but it's due for a refresh and more power.


My goal is to improve the performance of the car, while building a durable street only engine. I also want it to "appear" as stock as possible when done. The car has 2.75 gears in it now (26.5" tires), and it sees 80% highway. I'd like to keep the highway gears in the car since an OD transmission is really not an option. I am kind of looking more for vintage police car type performance, rather than 1/4 mile performance. 


So far I am thinking that I'd like to do the following:

  • TMI pistons, .030 over for about 9.3:1 compression
  • Keep stock crank and rods, probably have to turn the crank, recondition the rods
  • ARP fasteners throughout
  • Stock 400-2V 1972 heads, rebuild with one piece stainless valves (maybe stud conversion??)
  • Roller cam, possibly TMI Pantera cam
  • Scorpion roller rocker arms
  • Re-used the Edelbrock intake and Holley 670 SA
  • Would like to use TMI's new Ready to Run ignition, if available (basically a Durspark that uses an internal HEI module)
  • Double Roller timing set (I actually installed a Cloyes set about 5K ago)
  • TMI oil system mods and cam bearing
  • I am hoping I can use Sanderson FC4 headers or I could use Hooker Super Comps (very expensive)
I am not sure on the camshaft, but based on this build below, I think the Pantera roller cam would be a great choice.  This build (it's a long thread) was a 1978 LTD Ford with highway gears.  It is more geared than my car and significantly heavier and he reported good results.  His engine build was similar to what I posted above except he used Aussie heads.  These should flow about the same as my 1972 400 heads, but would have the closed chamber over the open chamber on my heads. 

https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1...part-deux.html
 
 
The TMI Pantera cam specs are as follows:
Comp Cam TMeyer Inc "Pantera" Hydraulic Roller grind:
Grind #: FC3630/3632 HR108.0
 
Intake, Exhaust
Gross Valve Lift:  .589, .602
Duration @ .006 282, 282
 
Valve timing
Open/Close at .050
Intake:  4 BTDC, 32ABDC
Exhaust:  44 BBDC, 0 ATDC
 
These specs are for cam inst @ 104.0 centerline
 
Intake, Exhaust
Duration @ .050  216.00, 224.00
Lobe Lift  .341, .348
Lobe Separation 108.0
 

I have considered TFS heads, but quite honestly I think they would push me out of the budget.  I am not sure how much power they'd be worth over running a decent set of 2V heads.  Also on the heads, would it be worthwhile to do a stud conversion?

I am likely going to have TMI (Tim Meyer Inc - https://www.tmeyerinc.com/) do the engine build or most of it.  I am not sure if it I will get him to do the long block or the entire build and have it dyno tuned.  It's pricey for me, since I am shipping from Canada and dealing with the exchange. In any case, I think he's pretty much the guru when it comes to Ford 400's.

 
 
Any advice, comments are appreciated!



Edited by 72FordGTS - 10-September-2017 at 2:00PM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-September-2017 at 3:24AM
Sounds pretty good to me! If im reading the cam specs right that should be about right, also if you haven't already I'd suggest 2 1/2" dual exhaust
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-September-2017 at 2:01PM
Originally posted by californiajohnny californiajohnny wrote:

Sounds pretty good to me! If im reading the cam specs right that should be about right, also if you haven't already I'd suggest 2 1/2" dual exhaust
 
Thanks Johnny.  I edited the post to make the cam specs more readable.
 
Yes, exhaust is going in after the engine is done.  I only have 2" duals now but that system is 20 years old so I will just start from scratch.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-September-2017 at 2:30PM
going from 2" to 2 1/2" helped my windsor breath betterWink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lynchster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-September-2017 at 3:43PM
I would not consider myself to be an experienced engine guy. Just someone who knows enough to be dangerous.
I did a lot of research before having my built last year though. Since you're going to go with a 400 (my choice had mine not come with a 351CJ)you might look into using the 351CJ heads on yours. The open chamber heads should be cheap enough if you sticking with cast heads and the extra stroke of the 400 crank should make nice use of the larger valves and ports.     

You might want to reconsider the 104 lobe separation depending on what you want the car to do.

Here's a few links incase you might be interested.

http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/wiki/Cam_and_compression_ratio_compatibility

http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/wiki/How_to_choose_a_camshaft

http://members.uia.net/pkelley2/DynamicCR.html

Edited by lynchster - 10-September-2017 at 3:52PM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-September-2017 at 6:16PM
spec pile shows 108* lobe sep to be installed 4* advanced to a 104* intake centerline ....
 
but yeah not a great choice for this application, i wouldn't go less than 112* lobe sep
 
the tight LSA will create a peaky TQ curve & graph, the power band will come on gangbusters like a switch and will also fall of at some point just the same. a wider LSA will give a flatter TQ curve graph and what George Pence calls better 'over-run', that is to say the engine won't fall on it's face on the top end but keep pulling. it's all here http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5650045562/m/319104265
 
one thing they never had back in the day was a quality set of adjustable bolt down pedestal style rockers Wink
 
small chamber heads will cause you to need to control static CR with dish pistons, and open chamber heads can be milled quite a bit if needed to adjust CR. the 4" stroke of the 400 has more effect on chamber volume than 3.5" 351's & 3" 302/5.0's ! 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-September-2017 at 3:33AM
Originally posted by lynchster lynchster wrote:

I would not consider myself to be an experienced engine guy. Just someone who knows enough to be dangerous.
I did a lot of research before having my built last year though. Since you're going to go with a 400 (my choice had mine not come with a 351CJ)you might look into using the 351CJ heads on yours. The open chamber heads should be cheap enough if you sticking with cast heads and the extra stroke of the 400 crank should make nice use of the larger valves and ports.     

You might want to reconsider the 104 lobe separation depending on what you want the car to do.
 
Chuck, I have thought about OC 4V heads.  I would consider this mod if I came across a decent set, but there are two issues.  First, I don't know what I do for headers.  If the Sanderson FC4 headers will work on the '72 Torino's, I could use them.  Otherwise there are no other's I know of for this setup.  Second, is I wouldn't be able to reuse my intake, and would have to buy spacers, both of which would increase the cost of the build (spacers are quite expensive).  I am open to suggestions, so I haven't ruled that out completely.  I always though Ford should have done a 400-4V from the factory.
 
 
Originally posted by Rockatansky Rockatansky wrote:

spec pile shows 108* lobe sep to be installed 4* advanced to a 104* intake centerline ....
 
but yeah not a great choice for this application, i wouldn't go less than 112* lobe sep
 
the tight LSA will create a peaky TQ curve & graph, the power band will come on gangbusters like a switch and will also fall of at some point just the same. a wider LSA will give a flatter TQ curve graph and what George Pence calls better 'over-run', that is to say the engine won't fall on it's face on the top end but keep pulling. it's all here http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5650045562/m/319104265
 
one thing they never had back in the day was a quality set of adjustable bolt down pedestal style rockers Wink
 
small chamber heads will cause you to need to control static CR with dish pistons, and open chamber heads can be milled quite a bit if needed to adjust CR. the 4" stroke of the 400 has more effect on chamber volume than 3.5" 351's & 3" 302/5.0's ! 
 
 
 
Rock,
 
thanks for the link from George.  I have a better understanding after reading that.  His stuff was all referencing 4V heads, but I am assuming what he is saying can be applied to 2V heads too?
 
Since this cam is a custom grind, could it not just be adjusted to have a wider LSA, say of 112?  Or if not do you have a suggestion on a roller cam (I don't want a flat tappet)?   I know my gears are limiting me somewhat, but with smaller diameter tires it's not too bad.  Right now I rev about 2700 RPM at 70 MPH, which is slower than most traffic.  To keep up with traffic I am closer to 3000 RPM.  I would consider 3.00, or 3.25 gears, but no higher.
 
Other than making the bottom end soggy, what will the gears do to the engine performance?  
 
 


Edited by 72FordGTS - 11-September-2017 at 5:56AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-September-2017 at 12:44PM
Yes the 2V's follow the same characteristics of the 4V's as far as general cam basics go, some say the 2V's don't need as much exhaust bias but IDK? those dual pattern cams that add quite a bit of duration to the exhaust seem to be a little heavy handed to a fault. the long exhaust duration leaves the valve open late and dynamic CR / power suffers. the intent of the X bias is to give the engine a fighting chance through a full length restrictive exhaust system
pretty sure i remember George had a 2V recipe, and he likes toupdate them as new lobes come available. think of cam duration as the length of a sprinting stride, up against a blocking dummy (the highway gear). with a short stride you'll keep digging and moving the dummy forward .... how well would that work with a long full speed stride? it's crap! the long stride / duration cam sucks at low rpm & up against a heavy load
 
with your existing gear what do you think you'd want for a max engine rpm?
 
what does it run up to in 1st wide open / shift into 2 and what max rpm/mph do you want it to do?
 
what would your mph be at 5500 or 6000 rpm? Shocked 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-September-2017 at 2:48PM
Thanks for the advice as always
Right now, the engine max RPM is less than 5000.  It seems to shift at WOT around 4700 RPM or so, but it's already losing power at this point. The engine is strong in the low to mid range now, even with the 2.75 gears and a traction-lok it'll do a smokey burnout. 
I think the WOT shift from first to second now is roughly 4700 RPM, and close to 50 MPH.  I'd like the new engine to pull at least to 5000 RPM and maybe max out near 5500 RPM . Not sure if I need it to spin up to 6000.
 
I ran some of those cams through my old Dyno 2000 software for what it's worth.  I also ran a Comp 268H cam as a baseline.  I used the flow numbers for a 2V ported head, obtained from George Pence's website.  The Pantera cam does seem to make more power in the higher RPM, than the 268 setup, and the 268 is a bit stronger down low.  Valve overlap is 66 degrees with the Pantera at 108, 58 degrees with the Pantera at 112, and 52 degrees on the 268H.
 
I tried to connect with Tim Meyer today but we played phone tag.  I haven't even mentioned cams to him yet, so maybe he will have some other suggestion.  I just grabbed this cam from a build for that '78 Ford LTD with the Aussie heads.  This Pantera Cam was in used in that build several years ago, so Tim may have a new version of it by now.
 
Ford 400 Pantera Cam:
 
 
Pantera Cam, with 112 LSA and advanced 4 degrees
 
 
 
Comp Cams 268H
 
 


Edited by 72FordGTS - 12-September-2017 at 2:53PM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lynchster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-September-2017 at 3:22PM
Originally posted by 72FordGTS 72FordGTS wrote:


I ran some of those cams through my old Dyno 2000 software for what it's worth. 


Is it accurate at all? I though about picking up some type of software to play around with what I already had built and what effect changes would have on it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-September-2017 at 3:29PM
IIRC Tim posted an engine build, that thing graphed out a flat TQ curve all the way across the page
 
ask him if he remembers the torque monster build cam!
 
!#$%&* ph-ucket they screwed every thread on the net
 
but yeah it sounds like you got the concept for sure. all 3 graphs look the same to me w/o squinting, the TQ falls off before the HP (never) takes over. i wonder what happens if the Pantera cam runs 114* no advance? (advancing the cam causes a low end bias)


Edited by Rockatansky - 12-September-2017 at 3:31PM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-September-2017 at 9:30AM
So I just got off the phone with Tim.  He says the Pantera cam is an old grind and he has better ones to use now.  He didn't get into cam specifics, but figures with iron heads and his newer roller cam, it'd be somewhere in the neighbourhood of 360-380 hp and 450-460 ft-lbs.  I discussed the weight and gear issues with my car, and he assures me it won't be an issue as most of his builds are for far heavier trucks. He seems to emphasize he builds engines that don't always make the highest peak numbers, but will offer very good street manners.
 
I also discussed the heads with him, aluminum vs iron.   He states that it cost roughly $900 for him to complete redo the heads, vs $2400 for the Trickflows.  He does not do any port work when he does the heads, and states once I start getting into port work, and stud conversions, you're better off to upgrade to the aluminum heads because they aren't too far off cost wise.
 
So in the end, I am probably just going to ship it out to him sometime probably in November.  I am just not sure now whether I should do a complete engine or just a long block?  The complete engine is a fair bit more, but he will run it on the dyno and setup the carb.  So that alone might be worthwhile.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-September-2017 at 9:32AM
Originally posted by lynchster lynchster wrote:


Is it accurate at all? I though about picking up some type of software to play around with what I already had built and what effect changes would have on it.
 
I think it's reasonably accurate when it comes to how certain changes will effect horsepower and torque.  Ie the effect of one cam vs another.  How accurate the overall numbers are, I am not sure.  I think years ago I did plug in a few magazine builds and it was reasonably close, but maybe a little optimistic. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-October-2017 at 1:16PM
i think i found Tim's TQ monster. see how the graph doesn't tank after (or before) the curves converge?
that Censored's haulin the mail!
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by Rockatansky - 08-October-2017 at 1:19PM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-October-2017 at 4:11PM
Wow, those are some serious engines.  A little out of my price range though.  When I talked to Tim, he didn't really seem to get into cam specifics.  I get the impression he may not be too open to share his cam specs until I am a paying customer. 
 
Plan to start pulling the engine at the end of the month.  Anyone got any tips on how to ship an engine?  Any photos of an engine on a pallet would be appreciated.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-October-2017 at 5:09AM
yes a little more build than you're after but the cam is the star, just tweak it to your build and hold on
 
ship to Tim? he has a pretty good deal on rates through him 


Edited by Rockatansky - 15-October-2017 at 5:10AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-October-2017 at 6:25AM
Yes, Tim has great shipping rates, but I will have to drive it across the border to Buffalo or Niagara Falls to get a good rate.  So I will ship it to him, but I need to secure the engine to a pallet and get it over to him.
 
I have a pallet to use and I was thinking of just using wood to support it via the pan rain?  Maybe some vertical supports to couple to the back of the engine block through the transmission holes? 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-October-2017 at 6:49AM
just screw down another chuck of 2 x 4 at all 4 corners on top of the 2 x 6 stack just to keep it from sliding forward or back strap it down it shouldn't move!!!
BTW that looks like a 350 not a 351 LOL hell send that SBC to me i can build it for you Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Bird Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-October-2017 at 6:58AM
That's a Chevy! They can do anything! They don't need to be secured! There's no holding them back anyway!
The above post should be read in a "Grumpy Old Man" voice.
Almost forgot: "Get off my lawn!!!"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-October-2017 at 7:20AM
Originally posted by Big Bird Big Bird wrote:

That's a Chevy! They can do anything! They don't need to be secured! There's no holding them back anyway!
Thumbs Up
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