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Engine swap from 302 to big block

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    Posted: 31-March-2020 at 5:52AM
hey I've been working on a 1968 torino gt and I want to do a engine swap to a big block. Any suggestion on what to swap my 302 out for?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-March-2020 at 10:52AM
351C, but maybe i'm biased

how's the unibody?

even if it's a good as the day it was new you might need to construct torque boxes and subframe connectors
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gregaba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-March-2020 at 11:14AM
I would go with an FE motor. You can buy mounts and other parts for the swap or dig the parts out of the junk yard. A easy swap depending on you tranny. It is hard to beat a 428 in a GT and even the 390 that came in the GT was a fast engine.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Bird Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-March-2020 at 11:55AM
FE or 429/460 are relatively easy swaps.
390 was a factory option. 429 was in the next generation.
You will need new transmissions with these options, as well as accessories.
351C will bolt in using your existing mounts and trans (but it's not a big-block
351W will also bolt right in, and most of your accessory drives will bolt right up, but also not a big-block.
Be bold, swap in a 300 I6.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spencer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-March-2020 at 12:37PM
the unibody is good it's an arizona car so I dont have any rust. I've been leaning towards the 429 swap. What do I need to do to make that fit?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote torinojon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-March-2020 at 1:40PM
type 429 swap ford torino you'll some kits.look for 1969 set up...
http://forum.grantorinosport.org/uploads/3190/marti5.jpg
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-March-2020 at 4:36PM
ecklers shows they have mounts
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spencer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-April-2020 at 1:07AM
thanks everyone for the advice. I'll keep you all updated 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spencer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-November-2020 at 3:13AM
Hey so I'm ready to do the swap it took me some time but I'm ready. I am going to get a 351w with a go rating of around 380 to 400 n a torque rating of 420. I have a t5 transmission. I understand that I will need to upgrade or rebuild it. Any suggestions on what to do
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-November-2020 at 8:55AM
not really up on the T-5... i think they are kinda light duty. i've heard the world class ones are better??? tremec tko500 is much stronger.
 idk you might contact modern driveline they may have info on upgrading.

https://www.moderndriveline.com/?gclid=CjwKCAiA5IL-BRAzEiwA0lcWYqvthPv0Iy8pKRv1mscCT8VGqxEQDIb-ggzQYuCPgPKCFOK-J3df-BoCxPIQAvD_BwE
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spencer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-November-2020 at 10:18AM
Thanks for the site I'll check it out. I called jegs to check out a replacement  option they told me they have a TREMEC 5-SPEED for around 2500 which seems like a good idea. The only thing I'm not sure of is if its worth it to up grade the t5 or not I know I could potentially work but thats just with the engine not with any up grades. 


     On another note I have an 8" rear end. Will that need to be changed out as well? Im not going to be doing any drag races with slicks on. But I'm going to be doing some burn outs for fun and maybe a few donuts. Is the 8 going to be a problem 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72 RS 351 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-November-2020 at 3:22AM
Here's what I have learned about the T-5 by reading other's questions, on the Corral forum mostly;

The T-5 can handle mild power, stock 302 levels, when it's in stock condition. There are parts you can upgrade to make them much stronger. But most people skip the upgrades and buy a different trans.

The questions about the T-5 come up all the time. I gather they are perfectly fine to start with, just use it without abusing the shifting, etc. Some people do that for their light budgets, and move up when they can.


The 8" rear is not good for any hard playing, burn outs an especially with sticky tires like launching at a track.




The 351W is a good choice to swap in, great fit for the car, and there are tons of parts to use. For anything over mild power, the heads will have to be expensive aftermarket kinds. When you read of a good powerful 351W, it won't be with any stock heads, or mild heads that cost under $1000. Prices have gone up in the last 10 years, and the airflow has too in many ways.

You're going to want a head that flows 275cfm I'd bet at a minimum. Stockish types will be under 250cfm, the best GT40 including Ford AL, will be less, say 235-250 depending on how much porting is done. New heads that are up there in airflow, figure those to run in the upper teens, $1500+. Your rpm range and stroke(3.5-4.0") choice will demand a certain amount.

Really good heads on a 351 will get you 400hp, but count on that to be a $1700 head, less if you find a rare good deal etc.

I finally settled on a head for a 337 I plan to build(for 12-14psi boost). I wanted a head with over 300cfm, two years back that looked like it needed to be a High Port, which begin around $2400. More CNC heads have been turning up since, due to the higher flow new heads, and demand for more flow. I found a new TW 170 head which unported is around 260cfm or so. Someone had them ported by TEA with a 205 CNC program. At 317cfm, that met my goal, so I took them, for about $1800.

TW170 heads are great, everyone loves them, but now there are a couple of new versions and people want bigger. The newer and bigger(cc size) heads cost more, they are right there at the near $2k mark. They do flow just under or over 300cfm depending on which version(190 or 205 etc). TW heads used to be about $750 used, now you can hardly find them, and are $1000 or so when you do. Add rebuild costs, new spring kit etc, and buying a new and different(and higher flowing), is what most people do.

So, start hunting for heads now, be patient if you need to find the best head for your money. Eventually good deals pop up.
Don
73 Ranchero GT 351C-4V 3.70 gears, to build a keeper
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spencer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-November-2020 at 5:05AM
thats some good info thanks. I guess I'm going to drop the engine in and just drive it light for now. Then do the 8" swap. What would u guys put in an 8.5 or a 9"? I'm going to start head hunting and just keep an eye out for good ones. If I find a good deal I'm going to jump on it just so I have them. Then probably get the transmission after. I'll hold off on burnouts for now. If I can go easy on the t5 I might be able to make it last till the build is done. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-November-2020 at 9:44AM
the 8" doesn't get any respect, it's a brute in it's own right. it uses the same 28 spline axles as the 9" so no real weakness there. it can serve admirably in a medium duty role with better power transfer. the 9" uses more power just like the C6 compared to the C4. does every rod need a 9", i don't think so? if i were going to the trouble to swap out rears i'd find a disc brake 8.8", you might even find a bolt-in or just move the spring perches deal.

351W? sideways $ IMO. you're gaining stroke but also gaining weight on the nose. same bore diameter, same basic cylinder head. you can stroke the 302 for improved power & efficiency and not gain weight. stroke to ~ 3.25" and add alloy Cleveland style 2V heads for a modern take / improved version of the Boss 302.

that gets my attention Big smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-November-2020 at 1:53PM
yes the 8" isn't all that bad, i've used may from an early mustang to upgrade in v-8 vega'sWink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72 RS 351 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-November-2020 at 3:28AM
I agree with the 8" rear being a good unit, but the mention of burnouts and donuts, plus 400hp, I'd want an upgrade if possible. I would do the rear last, like the T-5 it can survive for a long while.

The 302 is a great platform, but 400hp in that is harder than the 351W block. Same head needs yes, but a stroker kit has gone way up since I got my 347 built in 2009. I'd say add $1500 for a complete balanced kit, to the 302 engine build costs. The 351W is just a little cheaper to build than a 347, and not much outside is different(headers and front brackets basically).

FYI, never build a 3.25" stroke 302, unless you don't need the extra 15-30hp of a 3.4" stroke. The pistons used for each are equally reliable with no oil blow by issues for either. All of that old 3.4" talk is myth, BS, it's been "solved" for over 15 years.

That being said, I will be building a 351 for my Ranchero, but using a Dart 302 block, at .060" over, 3.4" crank, and 3V Cleveland heads. I want the 351 size, and Cleveland heads.




The same would go for a 4.0" Cleveland stroker, the few that ever get built. People build 3.85" stroke Cleveland's, that's a waste of power. I've seen the piston specs of Cleveland stroker kits, those are very tall pistons compared to 302(332 or 347) pistons. The 332/347 pistons are around 1.3" heights, that 4.0" stroker Cleveland piston is near 1.5" as I recall. What hurts piston wear and cylinders in a stroker, is the piston height and available cylinder depth. It's not the rpm, but that does contribute. There are 347's that turn 8000rpm+ with no issues, those short pistons do fine, no smoke or oil consumption from them.
Don
73 Ranchero GT 351C-4V 3.70 gears, to build a keeper
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spencer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-November-2020 at 3:47AM
thats a lot of good info. I'm going to need to think about it. When changing to 8.5 with disk breaks what will I need 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72 RS 351 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-November-2020 at 4:32AM
I'm not sure what 8.8 rear might fit best, and some welding might be part of the deal. The 95-01 Explorers all have leaf spring rear 8.8's with disc brakes, and 31 spline axles. In the later Rangers of around 2008, those had discs, and possibly 31 splines. The spline count I'm not sure about, earlier Rangers all had 28 splines and drum brakes. So there are tons of choices, but which rear housing will fit the most closely, that's what you need to learn(track width, spring perch location etc).
Don
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-November-2020 at 4:42AM
idk but 68/69 torino and ranger/explorer may be pretty darn close... you'd have to take some exact measurements to see.....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72 RS 351 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-November-2020 at 5:01AM
I agree, and the spring perch is likely the most possible to be a little off. I bet the track width is really close, depending on what wheel offsets you have to work with.
Don
73 Ranchero GT 351C-4V 3.70 gears, to build a keeper
73 Ranchero Sport "72 front end", floor shift/console, planning EFI 351-3V &4R70W
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-November-2020 at 5:56AM
this page has a ton of info on the Ranger / Explorer rear ends


Don it seems you've been away for a while, the 4" stroke 408 is probably the most popular Cleveland stroker that gets built even though it pulls the piston out of the bore too far at BDC. very short pistons are not good for fragile cylinder walls that have a hard time surviving in stock form. reducing the skirt area / load bearing surface serves to localize pressure on the cylinder wall and promote failure. a generous length full round skirt design is the only way to mitigate side loading onto the cylinder wall. Ross makes pistons in this style. another issue is compacting the ring pack into not enough space, intersecting the wrist pin. a major compromise in design integrity and reliability IMO. Tim Meyer's TrackBoss block (if we ever see the cast iron version) has the bottom of the bores extended as far as reasonably possible to stabilize the piston at BDC, other aftermarket blocks have not addressed this issue AFAIK and some have very short cylinders that leave a piston unsupported with common strokers. same issue as putting the 302 crank in a 289 block back in the day, they were not the same blocks!


George Pence put this chart together showing the various stroker dimensions and their effects.
note that stock CH for 351C and 400 is around 1.65", ring / wrist pin intersection begins below 1.3". also FWIW i would apply these same principals / standards to Windsor based stroker as well


chart by George Pence

here's what a 408 does to pistons, in a very short time






Edited by Rockatansky - 29-November-2020 at 8:28AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72 RS 351 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-November-2020 at 7:59AM
I hear you about the cylinder heights and piston skirts. Yes, I've been far behind engine builds and details of Cleveland's and most others besides the Windsors, since the 80's when there were no strokers for anything. I have honestly just browsed a few short times for stroker kits for a Cleveland. Those specs charts are also out there for 302's and 351W's. These days the Windsor stroker kits are so thoroughly worked out, the only real way to mess those up is to find some old early kit stuff that is obsolete.

I'm not truly set on building another Cleveland, I'd love to, but money and time after my other projects, it may not be possible. I'd love to sell the engine and trans from my newest 73, and make time to build a better Cleveland, and 4R70W. I have a 900cfm early model Holley EFI 4-hole TB system. I never got to use it for a 400 I was trying to do, so it's NIB other than removing the TB primary shaft to install a Lokar AOD TV linkage/cable onto it. It may or may not be great for a mildly hot engine, it's late 80's technology.
Don
73 Ranchero GT 351C-4V 3.70 gears, to build a keeper
73 Ranchero Sport "72 front end", floor shift/console, planning EFI 351-3V &4R70W
92 Lincoln Mark VII SE, OBDII 347/4R70W
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spencer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-December-2020 at 8:15AM
The info about the cylinder heights and piston skirts is important. I'll keep all of it in mind. Can't be leave they got scratched up like that. I'm going to look up a bunch of spec charts and read up on it some more. I have to do that with the stroker kit as well.

What would be the best option for brakes? I have a vacuum brake booster and was wondering if I could use it on the 351 or will i have to find a better option like hydrologic only thing I dont have power steering yet so would need to do that first  
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