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cast iron 4v heads vs aluminum heads
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andyjman83 View Drop Down
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    Posted: 11-October-2014 at 11:52PM
hey guys,
I wanted to pick your brains on something.
What do you think that power difference would be between a set of cleveland 4v closed chamber heads, and say a set of the trick flow power port 190 aluminum heads would be on say, a 408. Assuming that the cam would be the same, and everything else would be as well, E.G. external components, etc. I do know that on alum heads you can run a higher compression ratio, along with a few other benefits, but would the power difference be that noticible between the 2?
The motor will be a 408 or 418 CU IN which will help to increase power, and also help with the general behavior on the bottom end, it will run on pump gas
 
Reason I ask, is I found a set of nicely worked 4v heads with pretty much everything new on them, and the seller would give me a good deal, and the fact that the set of iron heads can be had for less than half of what the set of trick flows would cost.
 
The iron heads are pretty much stock with some mild porting and cleaning up, and currently have port stuffers which will more than likely be removed.
 
The target power is 450-500.
 
This will be a clevor build.
 
Is that kind of power possible with the iron heads?
 
Any info is appreciated.
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Rockatansky View Drop Down
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190 ports on a 400 is likely a choke point for a performance application, it'll probably hit the '400hp peanut port stroker wall'
 
alloy allowing higher compression has been debunked, or negligible at best. I believe there's a difference up until the engine reaches stable temp but then again an engine shouldn't be pushed hard before that anyway
 
>have the stuffers been anchored by drilling through the bottom of the port & screwed in?
 
if you remove the stuffers you'll need to seal the drilled hole from sucking engine oil from the valley are into the ports, can be as easy as drilling & tapping for pipe plugs, use a fuel resistant sealant & grinding the plugs flush inside the port
 
>how high off the port floor are the port stuffers? (they're not all the same)
 
you may want to leave them in & use a quality intake that matches (not a rip-off copy of a quality intake)
 
450-500 is slightly above the bolt it together hp level for a stock stroke 351, with more crank it's almost impossible not to make that kind of power unless you handicap the engine with say, small intake ports. I just caught a post in a thread mentioning stuffers, stroke &  ~ 500hp
 
 
I gotta say at first I was skeptical especially as the poster seems a little confused as to what he actually has, a .040" over 351 is under 360" so take it for FWIW. Dave Storlien has a fair reputation as a porter if not controversial, Engine Masters Competition experience, I have no reason to not believe that he can work a set of heads to make that power. that said, they've been worked by a pro 
 
then again it's possible that stock 4V's can make the same power or more, it'd just be a different power curve
 
a 400-4V assembled with attention to the details can make upwards of 600hp if that's the goal,
or anywhere up to that if drivability & durability are more important
 
 
 


Edited by Rockatansky - 12-October-2014 at 6:01AM
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72 RS 351 View Drop Down
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The stock 4V heads are great if the camshaft is properly designed for them and the engine size, vehicle etc. Any off the shelf cam has a high likelihood of failing to meet the potential or goals. I'd never build a Cleveland headed anything without a custom cam, meaning a cam designed for the vehicle, not one chosen out of a book by a cam tech.

That's the critical deal with any Cleveland now. Back 30 years ago the cam technology we have now didn't exist. That's why most Clevelands got bad reps for having low bottom end, bad gas mileage etc. Now you can build the same crap by guessing at the off the shelf cams yourself, or letting a cam tech do the same dumb thing. Any cam tech is not trying to help you, they are only trying to sell you a part, one that they have available, not one that they do not have available. There are some great cam experts working at the brand name places, but the cam tech lines will only push OTS cams at you. Avoid those.

The real 4V heads can make great use of 408-418 CI, or 427 or 454, whatever level of stroked Windsor you are willing to do.

There are lots of high end aftermarket Cleveland heads, and Edelbrock and TFS are not among them. Those are the bottom level, not much better than a stock 4V head.The others run about $2500 and up though, plus the special intake for each.

I like CHI mainly because they alone make one as a 3V head which has Windsor front bolt patten holes, for Windsor accessories/brackets. I know their 3V 180cc head has them, I'm hoping to find that they will make their 208 heads with them also. Mine will only be a 351 size though, a 3.4" stroked 302.

I suggest getting the 4V heads you mentioned, and spend the precious time/labor/money to get a custom cam and the matching valvetrain, set up properly in it. That 408 Clevor will make 500hp readily for sure. Regards,


Edited by 72 RS 351 - 12-October-2014 at 6:23AM
Don
73 Ranchero "Sport 72 front end", floor shift/console, planning EFI 7000+ rpm 351-4V &4R70W
73 Ranchero GT 351C-4V &4R70W for sale later.
92 Lincoln Mark VII SE GTC, OBDII 347/4R70W
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I just realized your talking CC closed chambers... dude just had to ditch his CC heads & swap to OC's to reduce static CR because adding stroke smacks a wollop in the compression dept
 
 
you'll need some serious dish pistons to use CC heads
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Rockatansky View Drop Down
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Originally posted by 72 RS 351 72 RS 351 wrote:

There are lots of high end aftermarket Cleveland heads, and Edelbrock and TFS are not among them. Those are the bottom level, not much better than a stock 4V head
 
the Eddy & TFS are 2V ported, unported 4V's can put a stomp on them if built to do it
 
not bad for what they are, if that's what you want/need
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I agree, it's the nearly $2k price tag of the Edelbrocks etc, which make them unfeasible. The stock heads can compete well at 1/2 to 1/3 of the cost. People who just want to buy the new part or not hunt the old stuff, they will buy them. They are top level quality, no doubt. With those TFS heads, you can even buy new intakes that accept all late model EFI parts, which is very attractive.

For Windsor heads, nothing is better than a TFS head ..., but then any Cleveland head will beat those.

For a cam designer, touch base with Ed Curtis and see how he likes doing the Cleveland stuff. See if you get the feel that he knows well what to do with them. There are lots of big name cam designers, you want one that is really comfortable with the needs of the many Cleveland variants. The bigger the head ports are, the smaller the cam needs to be(that's simplified, but it's the general difference between each different head, cam).


Off topic but slightly related;
You shouldn't use the same cam for two much different heads. An AFR 185 head is nothing like a TFS 195 TW head, both for a Windsor. They might be very similar in port sizes, but each needs a much different cam. The internet is full of people who do head swaps like those and wonder why they lost power or got nothing, or more. They messed up from the start by using the same cam for both, there's no way to compare two combos when one is definitely mismatched, and they both might be wrong.
Don
73 Ranchero "Sport 72 front end", floor shift/console, planning EFI 7000+ rpm 351-4V &4R70W
73 Ranchero GT 351C-4V &4R70W for sale later.
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AFR gets some good feedback for the in-line valves...
but anyway I just ran across a thread, some real deal vintage 'how they did it' stuff
 
point is, look at how little fill is on the floor of the 380cfm heads. on the next page or 2 are some pics showing the escalation to raise the stock port roof, important detail here is that as the roof went up, the floor came up more but the port was pushed out wider to maintain total volume & cross-section
 
many just raise the floor w/o doing the rest of the work needed to flow even as good as stock much less better. reducing total port volume is a good idea for smaller cube engines like the Boss 302... but when you go big cubes the engine wants to eat


Edited by Rockatansky - 12-October-2014 at 8:14AM
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Ditto, the big ports of the 4V heads love larger engines, the 408+ engine planned here will like them. The aftermarket stuff has a lot of small versions that seem to be aimed at replacing 2V heads. They like to mix advertising words like velocity and low end torque, to push people into smaller heads, yet bigger heads matched with a cam will best the smaller heads virtually always.

If you are slapping an engine together with random or guessed at parts, keep them as small as possible. With bigger airflow parts, the losses from parts mistakes are far bigger.

Andy, make a new build thread when you get your basic choices done, and take lots of pictures. People love to see details of engine projects. Regards,
Don
73 Ranchero "Sport 72 front end", floor shift/console, planning EFI 7000+ rpm 351-4V &4R70W
73 Ranchero GT 351C-4V &4R70W for sale later.
92 Lincoln Mark VII SE GTC, OBDII 347/4R70W
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Thanks a ton guys. I have been kinda indecicive about what engine I wanted to build. For a while I was leaning toward a big block, but I like the idea of having a nasty small block. I met a guy out here in the high desert of so cal who will help me with the sourcing of parts, and assembly of the engine. His names john, and apparently he's quite highly thought of in the engine community. His sites www.strokerengine.com if you wanna check out his stuff and lemme know what u think. I have done quite a few motors myself, but nothing like one of these. I really like the idea of using a set of nice iron heads. I kinda wanna keep it old school.

I will include pics of the build, and restoration process of the ranchy.

To answer your question, this won't be a motor thrown together with spare stuff. We are going to use all new parts except for the heads and block. I'm stoked to get the build going and ill keep u gus posted every step of the way.
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Oh, to answer your question, the port stuffers are expoied in to the ports, I don't think they are drilled.
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Great, I look forward to watching it come together.

Most of what I posted were comments about general build ideas, best way to do things etc. I hope I didn't sound like I was talking down to you or anyone. I've been on quite a few forums where people come in and assume everything they read is aimed at them and/or a challenge. I try to help as best I can, with what little I may know.

I'm happy to be thinking about mine again. I've got tons of other things to do before I can do much hard work to it. But maybe next Spring I can begin at saving the body and detailing what else it needs. I can make plans and even begin a 302 to use as a first test engine to fit the trans, wiring, computer, accessories, AC lines, etc. I hope to get my engine guy Woody to do my 351 Clevor, he's great with SBF's. Your guy John will know of him.
Don
73 Ranchero "Sport 72 front end", floor shift/console, planning EFI 7000+ rpm 351-4V &4R70W
73 Ranchero GT 351C-4V &4R70W for sale later.
92 Lincoln Mark VII SE GTC, OBDII 347/4R70W
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No offense taken what so ever. Its nice to find a forum where people aren't constantly having pissing contests and getting bent out of shape over stupid things.

I'm really looking foreward to this build. This is the first ford car I have done that doesn't have a computer. My main specialty is ford 6.0 and 7.3 diesel engines, along with ford 4.6 and 5.4 engines.

This car means a lot to me and it deserves to be restored. It is from a time when quality and craftsmanship were valued over the bottom line. When music actually took skill, and people looked out for one another. These cars were built by people and not robots and as such have kind of developed a soul over the years. The sad thing is that in 30 years there won't be cars for our kids to restore because todays cars aren't built to last.

This is why I want to redo it and give it the love it deserves.

I will post pics and updates in a build thread for everyone to see as my project progresses.

Ill have to have a custom cam ground, and custom valve train setup etc but it'll all be worth it.

Andy
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man, you "hit the nail on the head" andy! i couldn't have said it better^^^
p.s. just curious, where are you at in so cal? i'm originally from littlerock, ca (next to palmdale) and you also mentioned the high desert, i am just curious (i 've lived here in washington state for the past 30 years)
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I grew up in rancho cucamonga, and I live and work in the riverside area now. My engine builder is in yucca valley
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ok, cool thanks!
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Well said Andy, that's the way to work on a project, with good planning and passion to do it right.
Don
73 Ranchero "Sport 72 front end", floor shift/console, planning EFI 7000+ rpm 351-4V &4R70W
73 Ranchero GT 351C-4V &4R70W for sale later.
92 Lincoln Mark VII SE GTC, OBDII 347/4R70W
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