Power brake to manual conversion |
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ilyes
Senior Member Joined: 09-January-2010 Location: Philadelphia PA Status: Offline Points: 3782 |
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Posted: 13-January-2015 at 12:11AM |
I don't remember seeing a thread talking about going from power to manual brakes.
It seems my master is gone, and so is the booster.i want to go manual brakes in the future, but I may have to make it happen sooner. Do you guys know if the power brake pedal is the same a non power pedal? I now they are not the same between an automatic vs 4 speed. Other than that, has anybody tried the conversion before? Any tips?
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dave302
Senior Member Joined: 08-October-2009 Location: usa Status: Offline Points: 3171 |
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No they are not the same, the Pivot is in a different place on a Manual Brake Pedal. You can find a brake pedal from a 1972 Torino that has manual brakes, or you can convert your power brake pedal into a manual brake pedal. You can grind off the weld of the pivot, and then remove the Stud. Then you will have to drill a hole in the brake pedal assembly and install the pivot in the correct location for the manual brake master cylinder. Then you can weld the stud onto the brake pedal assembly. |
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dave302
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dave302
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Skinnys Garage
Senior Member Joined: 26-February-2010 Location: South Dakota Status: Offline Points: 277 |
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You will also need the manual brake firewall filler plate. This fits between the pedal support and the firewall to give you the correct mounting position for the master cylinder to the raised pedal stud position.
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Scott -'73 Gran Torino Brougham
Past Torino's -'73 Q-code GTS, '76 Original PS-122 S&H, '73 H-code GTS, '73 Ranchero '71 Cobra 351 Auto, '70 351C Brougham 2dr HT, '71 351C Ranchero |
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ilyes
Senior Member Joined: 09-January-2010 Location: Philadelphia PA Status: Offline Points: 3782 |
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Anybody has a template for that bracket, or one for sale?
How far up does the pin have to go?
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Rockatansky
Senior Member Joined: 30-July-2010 Location: On The Road Status: Offline Points: 6072 |
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I'm doing the power to manual brake conversion, here's my filler plate
a small sheet metal screw on each side holds the plate to the firwall, and I remember 2 very short & shallow headed bolts in the bottom hole positions from the engine bay side IIRC not sure what the top 2 bolt holes do ATM |
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72 GT Ute
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Regul8r
Admin Group Moderator Joined: 26-December-2007 Location: Sarasota FL Status: Offline Points: 6624 |
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WHAT AND WHY???
1st off WHY do you think the master AND the booster are bad? Doing this to SAVE money? You are gonna spend more than it would cost for new/remanned booster! Ilyess, I am heading to the farm on Saturday and would pull a booster and send it to you if you pay shipping! The master is on it too! NO WAY I WOULD EVER replace a power system on these cars with a manual system!! Rock Auto Master cylinder $17-35 depending on which one you get booster is under $100 just saying for under $135 you have a new booster and master! Direct swap, no issues, no spending hours fabricating, no running back and forth to the hardware store, no new nuts, bolts, pins, washers and a better system than any Manual set up you will put on it! just saying as an example $100 worth of duct tape, plexiglass and tools to cut it to cover a broken side window then keep repairing THAT for a month instead of spending $40 and an hour of work on a new replacement window is NOT SMART. SAME principle here Spend the LITTLE bit of money to make it right and never worry about it again.
Edited by Regul8r - 13-January-2015 at 5:19PM |
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Carl Corey (Moderator/Event Coordinator) Contact ANYTIME!
1976 Ford Elite "Lola Mae" 97 Suzuki Intruder 1400 US Army Retired |
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ilyes
Senior Member Joined: 09-January-2010 Location: Philadelphia PA Status: Offline Points: 3782 |
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Hey Carl, I want to go manual as the next engine won't produce enough vacuum to operate the brakes.
Adding a vacuum can won't help. We tried one on my boss's 69 Camaro, and it doesn't help enough. The master is full of rust (most likely coming from the line), but brake fluid leaks from the booster itself. Also, if engine vacuum there is, the pedal does stay to the floor after the first pump. The system can't be bled either has air finds it way in it. The pedal travel is abnormal as well, and takes forever to come back up after each pump. I checked autozone, it about $85 after shop discount to get a brand new booster and master. If you go to the farm, could you grab me a set of wiper arms ( I only have the passenger side in the trunk). Aslo, if you have a manual steering rack over there, I'll be interested in the future. Edited by ilyes - 14-January-2015 at 12:13AM |
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dave302
Senior Member Joined: 08-October-2009 Location: usa Status: Offline Points: 3171 |
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A manual brake master cylinder has a different pushrod than a power brake master cylinder. The manual brake master cylinder pushrod always stays attached to the master cylinder. In other words: If you have a 1972 Torino with manual brakes you have to disconect the master cylinder pushrod from the brake pedal, to remove the master cylinder from the firewall. There is a picture below of a 1972 Torino firewall with the manual brake alloy adapter plate attached between the pedal hanger and the firewall. |
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dave302
Senior Member Joined: 08-October-2009 Location: usa Status: Offline Points: 3171 |
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In the picture below, the left side adapter plate is for power brakes, and the right side adapter plate is for manual brakes.
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madmaxtorino
Moderator Group Zombie Killing Training Instructor Joined: 04-August-2010 Location: Lawrenceburg Tn Status: Offline Points: 971 |
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http://www.forum.grantorinosport.org/73-manual-brake-bracket_topic10085_post98925.html?KW=#98925
I may still have his phone number if you need it. Allan
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Allan
Revelation 6:8 When there is no more room in Hell, the dead will walk the Earth. |
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GranTorinslo
Member Joined: 09-June-2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 54 |
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If the big concern is not having enough vacuum to operate the brakes, why not try adding a vacuum pump like they do on forced induction cars. I'm no expert so maybe that plus a vacuum can would be your best bet. There is a whole range of varying quality 12v vacuum pumps, a quick google and I found one for $15 that pulls 16" might want to go a little pricier if the trade off is a better duty cycle or find a way to hook it up with a relay. I had a few friends with 03/04 cobras, all of them at some point bought vacuum pumps.
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foote500
Senior Member Joined: 13-June-2011 Location: Winchester, VA Status: Offline Points: 1267 |
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I also think this is a fools errand...
Edited by foote500 - 14-January-2015 at 11:03AM |
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Marc
German Shepherd Rescue 1967 Ford Fairlane 500, 390 |
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ilyes
Senior Member Joined: 09-January-2010 Location: Philadelphia PA Status: Offline Points: 3782 |
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I tried the vacuum pump on my boss's car before and after install. It doesn't feel good at all, the new manual booster has a much better feeling.
I also happen to like manual brake/steering better than assisted. If anybody wants to trade, that'd be great.
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dave302
Senior Member Joined: 08-October-2009 Location: usa Status: Offline Points: 3171 |
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And then put the master cylinder pushrod hole up against the brake pedal and draw a circle of the master cylinder pushrod hole onto the brake pedal, and this will be where to drill the new hole for the brake pedal pin/stud. The reason that they put the pin up higher on the manual brake pedal, was because it gave better Leverage when used with manual brakes. |
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Big Bird
Senior Member Joined: 25-August-2013 Location: New York Status: Offline Points: 4194 |
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Ditch the power brakes for manual brakes? Might as well go whole hog and throw on front drums instead of discs... 1965-67 galaxie is a bolt-on
Seriously, think about this some more. 2+ tons of ford, at speed, with manual brakes is not going to be fun. |
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"What we do in full frontal view, is more honest than your cleaned-up mind."
Randy 1979 T-Bird 2005 F-150 STX RCSB 4.6, 3.55 LSD How the Heck does a REGULAR CAB SHORTBED weigh over 5200 pounds? |
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ilyes
Senior Member Joined: 09-January-2010 Location: Philadelphia PA Status: Offline Points: 3782 |
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Ok, I hear you guys. I want manual brake, sure, but it doesn't mean I'm keeping stock front brakes either.
It's a matter of taste and also I'm planning accordingly for the future. I understand the safety issues that might come up but when sized properly, a manual set up will match a power setup pretty closely
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dave302
Senior Member Joined: 08-October-2009 Location: usa Status: Offline Points: 3171 |
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To contact him by Email Click here. To contact him through his ebay store Click here.
Edited by dave302 - 08-May-2015 at 8:43AM |
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Skinnys Garage
Senior Member Joined: 26-February-2010 Location: South Dakota Status: Offline Points: 277 |
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I had to convert mine to manual, because the cam profile is a bit too radical to provide enough vacuum. Tried extra storage cans at first with no luck, but the bottom line is that extra parts (like a pump or hydroboost) just adds extra weight I didn't want. I admit, my car was put together with a straight line in mind and I live in a pretty quiet town without a ton of traffic, so no power brakes, steering or even a sway bar hasn't really been a problem. That said, my thinking has changed a bit about my GTBs future. The big block setup is probably going to end up in my '58, with a mild Windsor taking its place. When that happens, all the power options are going back on. It's just not as fun to drive when you have to work at it......especially at my age........
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Scott -'73 Gran Torino Brougham
Past Torino's -'73 Q-code GTS, '76 Original PS-122 S&H, '73 H-code GTS, '73 Ranchero '71 Cobra 351 Auto, '70 351C Brougham 2dr HT, '71 351C Ranchero |
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ilyes
Senior Member Joined: 09-January-2010 Location: Philadelphia PA Status: Offline Points: 3782 |
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I've seen the hydroboost setup, never driven it though. It sounds promessing but doesn't come cheap either. I'm still not sure about the power steering as I never tried a Torino or similar car without one.
Back home, I always preferred driving non power steering car, the feel is just as good as it gets.
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unlovedford
Senior Member Joined: 17-December-2010 Location: Tennessee Status: Offline Points: 10142 |
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Ilyes, I have manual steering and manual brakes on my red '72 wagon.
The brakes? I actually prefer them to the power brakes on the other Torinos I have. Pedal feel and pedal modulation is a big deal with me, as I like to maintain complete awareness with what the car is feeling/doing at all times. I live in a very mountainous and hilly area, and I have no issues stopping it from speed at all. I will go to 4 wheel discs in the near future, but I'm trying to figure a way to not use a booster. As far as manual steering... I really enjoyed it at first, but tired of the rotten ratio and 6+ turns lock-to-lock. I installed a far better ratio power box and just looped the line to keep it lubricated (but no PS pump supplying pressure) and immediately enjoyed the 3.5 turns and far better feel. Tougher to steer than the true manual box, but livable. I enjoy the feel of the steering "loading" as you toss the car into corners and then let her unwind as you hit the straightaway. The exact reason my Civic has manual steering - far more fun for me. However, my wagon has a 250 with a 3 speed manual. Installing a V8 with an automatic or 5 speed like I am doing will increase the weight on the front wheels and make it a chore to drive. Therefore, I am going with the 841 box and the larger volume late model Ford pump (or a Saginaw pump) to still have excellent feel and increase the pleasure. If I were staying with the 250? Nah, I'd keep the manual "power" box. |
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Joe
1972 Mom's Squire Wagon 1972 Torino Wagon 1976 Torino 1968 Cougar XR7-First batch 1972 Torino 460 1989 BroncoII/Jeeps/Titanimous Popeye and Brutus (Rams) |
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foote500
Senior Member Joined: 13-June-2011 Location: Winchester, VA Status: Offline Points: 1267 |
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And, I am speaking from experience here, my red 72 came with manual brakes with front discs. I had them changed over to power-why? Well, even though I was just using my car for short pleasure drives and the manual brakes were not that bad, there was still a delay in my "thinking", plus most of my panic braking comes from other people actions, and to figure in the lag time, I had so many close calls that just would not have been as close with power brakes.
Now with the Cyclone-it did not come that way, and on a car like that with it relative rarity, I might not convert to power-but then again how many potential buyers out there want to drive a beast. My thinking there is that being a manual transmission car, and having driven trucks for a job, the tranny will do most of the braking. |
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Marc
German Shepherd Rescue 1967 Ford Fairlane 500, 390 |
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BadHabit351
Senior Member Joined: 21-June-2013 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 217 |
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I swapped the vacuum booster for hydroboost. I used a 1978 Lincoln Mark V set up. I had to drill one hole for the pedal mount. I was able to keep my Torino master cylinder and used the Lincoln P/S pump. I made custom lines running to the hydroboost. I did all this for two reasons. My 393C only pulls 12" vacuum at idle and I needed the space where the vacuum booster lives to mount my clutch master cylinder.
Brake feel is great. It doesn't over boost at all. Comments from my buddies are all positive. I've included a couple of pictures. Edited by BadHabit351 - 15-January-2015 at 4:58AM |
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1973/72 Gran Torino Sport
1971 Torino GT convertilble 2013 Ford Fusion 2004 Ford SuperDuty 2013 Mustang GT |
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BadHabit351
Senior Member Joined: 21-June-2013 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 217 |
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Reman Brake booster (O'Reilly's) = $192 (including core)
Reman P/S pump (O'Reilly's) = $57 (including core) Custom made pressure line to HB = $35 Stock Lincoln pressure line from HB to steering box (O'Reilly's) = $16 Stock Lincoln return line (O'Reilly's) = $12 Pulley for P/S pump (Summit) = $27 Some fabrication required to mount pump to 351C p/s bracket. I trimmed mine (to make it square) and then fabricated a spacer to mount the pump. I then welded that spacer in place on the bracket. All total, about $340 using new parts. If you find a Lincoln in the junk yard it's even cheaper. I just happen to have a Mark 5 that I bought for the motor. Reckon I got my $200 back? |
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1973/72 Gran Torino Sport
1971 Torino GT convertilble 2013 Ford Fusion 2004 Ford SuperDuty 2013 Mustang GT |
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unlovedford
Senior Member Joined: 17-December-2010 Location: Tennessee Status: Offline Points: 10142 |
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Sheesh. I'll just do this swap and be done, for that price. Thanks for the info!
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Joe
1972 Mom's Squire Wagon 1972 Torino Wagon 1976 Torino 1968 Cougar XR7-First batch 1972 Torino 460 1989 BroncoII/Jeeps/Titanimous Popeye and Brutus (Rams) |
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BadHabit351
Senior Member Joined: 21-June-2013 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 217 |
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I've put about 800 miles on my car since I got it (mostly) put back together. I did have a small leak on the steering box. I had to stand on my head and twist my tongue to the right, but I did get a line wrench on there. Seems to be no more crowded than normal with a C.
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1973/72 Gran Torino Sport
1971 Torino GT convertilble 2013 Ford Fusion 2004 Ford SuperDuty 2013 Mustang GT |
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Big Bird
Senior Member Joined: 25-August-2013 Location: New York Status: Offline Points: 4194 |
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If you are gonna get a Mark V for the Hydroboost, might as well go "All-in" and swap the rear disc brakes in as well. Heck, swap the whole axle, use the 12" rotors and caliper brackets and get a set of 5x5 wheels.
Big brake swap, Check Rear discs, Check Hydroboost, Check. 460/C6... All from one parts car Oh, and some REALLY comfy seats...
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"What we do in full frontal view, is more honest than your cleaned-up mind."
Randy 1979 T-Bird 2005 F-150 STX RCSB 4.6, 3.55 LSD How the Heck does a REGULAR CAB SHORTBED weigh over 5200 pounds? |
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1of197
Brand New Member Joined: 17-February-2015 Location: SussexCounty NJ Status: Offline Points: 1 |
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Hi Guy's
Newbie here. I guess it's been long enough were I wouldn't be
hijacking this thread. I found this thread because I have the same issue as Marc
does. My 73 Gran Torino has front disc but they are manual & like Marc
reaction time is very important to me. Especially since I'm gaining on 60! So Marc
what did you have to do with that process????
Thanks,
Deejay
PS. My user name is not that I'm bragging I just didn't know what else to use. Plus I'd figured it would grab your
attention.
Last April I was very lucky to buy a 73 Gran Torino
sport coupe with a factory four speed & 351 cobra jet. I guess I'll go into
that in the welcome mat???
Thanks again. |
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SirDan89
New Member Joined: 18-December-2014 Location: Long island, NY Status: Offline Points: 24 |
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Manual discs here and they stop great. What lag?
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