|
Thompson PS Pumps - Steering Effort |
Post Reply 
|
| Author | ||
72FordGTS 
Admin Group 
GTS.org Admin Joined: 06-September-2005 Location: Ontario, Canada Status: Offline Points: 5854 |
 Post Options
 Thanks(0)
 Quote Reply
 Topic: Thompson PS Pumps - Steering EffortPosted: 27-March-2015 at 12:18PM |
|
|
Does anyone know if there is a way to reduce the amount of boost from a Thompson P/S pump? I find my stock pump just provides way more assist than I'd like. Anyone have any ideas on how to reduce the boost?
Edited by 72FordGTS - 11-May-2015 at 7:21AM |
||
|
Vince
1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car GTS.org Admin |
||
 |
||
|
californiajohnny
Moderator Group 
Joined: 05-October-2013 Location: winlock, wa Status: Offline Points: 14609 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 27-March-2015 at 2:51PM |
|
|
under driving the pulley may help some. mine is way too quick IMO, stock ford box and pump, when i got the billet under drive pulleys for the engine it did slowdown the pump only slightly, but i did notice a difference, i've gotten used to the feel but my car has always seemed really quick steering compared to all my other cars (maybe it's just a torino thing??? and all this discussion about replacing the box with a quick ratio one, and i'm thinking why? the damn thing is quick now!) maybe i'm missing something???
|
||
|
JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE 74 VETTE CUSTOM 90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED 77 CELICA CUSTOM 75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED 79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED 75 VEGA V6 5 SPD 70 CHEV C10 P/U 68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION |
||
|
||
|
IndyLTD I I
Member 
Joined: 01-March-2015 Location: Shelbyville, IN Status: Offline Points: 51 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 27-March-2015 at 4:49PM |
|
|
We used to plumb a bypass valve from the pressure line to the return line on the older Fords. Now there are aftermarket options like: http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Heidts-PS-101-Adjustable-Power-Steering-Valve,14895.html
Reducing the pressure definitely gives you more road feedback, and eliminates a lot of that steering on ice feeling. http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Heidts-PS-101-Adjustable-Power-Steering-Valve,14895.html Edited by IndyLTD I I - 28-March-2015 at 1:42AM |
||
|
Lee Virden
1978 LTD II S |
||
|
||
|
Big Bird
Senior Member 
Joined: 25-August-2013 Location: New York Status: Offline Points: 4194 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 28-March-2015 at 1:53AM |
|
|
||
|
"What we do in full frontal view, is more honest than your cleaned-up mind."
Randy 1979 T-Bird 2005 F-150 STX RCSB 4.6, 3.55 LSD How the Heck does a REGULAR CAB SHORTBED weigh over 5200 pounds? |
||
|
||
|
californiajohnny
Moderator Group
Joined: 05-October-2013 Location: winlock, wa Status: Offline Points: 14609 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 28-March-2015 at 3:03AM |
|
|
thanks lee, the link worked this morning, i may have to try one of those!!!
|
||
|
JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE 74 VETTE CUSTOM 90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED 77 CELICA CUSTOM 75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED 79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED 75 VEGA V6 5 SPD 70 CHEV C10 P/U 68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION |
||
|
||
|
72FordGTS
Admin Group
GTS.org Admin Joined: 06-September-2005 Location: Ontario, Canada Status: Offline Points: 5854 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 28-March-2015 at 5:23AM |
|
|
I already have a quick ratio steering box. I am happy with the ratio, but I still find the steering overboosted.
The adjustable power steering valve seems like a good option. I was hoping though that there was someone to have the pump "rebuilt" and recalibrated instead of adding something. Does anyone know if different versions of the Thompson pumps provide the same level of boost? Like would one for a 1971 Mustang with a quick ratio steering box be calibrate the same as the ones used on our Torinos? Is there anyone who specializes in modifying power steering pumps?
|
||
|
Vince
1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car GTS.org Admin |
||
|
||
|
72FordGTS
Admin Group
GTS.org Admin Joined: 06-September-2005 Location: Ontario, Canada Status: Offline Points: 5854 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 30-March-2015 at 8:14AM |
|
|
Anyone got any other ideas? There has got to be someone out there who specializes in Thompson pumps? Or is my only option the add on steering valve or an oversized pulley?
Edited by 72FordGTS - 30-March-2015 at 8:25AM |
||
|
Vince
1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car GTS.org Admin |
||
|
||
|
aquartlow
Senior Member
Joined: 19-December-2011 Location: Summerfield, Fl Status: Offline Points: 2271 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 30-March-2015 at 12:35PM |
|
|
I have never tinkered with a Ford/Thompson pump, here is some info that may be useful in your quest to reduce output pressure and/or volume without an "external" device. I know "adjusting" the pump's internal pressure relief spring can increase or decrease output pressure, without adding something inline to reduce pressure which would also more than likely increase fluid temperatures. Hope this helps.
|
||
|
www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires. No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t. Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone. |
||
|
||
|
Rockatansky
Senior Member
Joined: 30-July-2010 Location: On The Road Status: Offline Points: 6072 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 30-March-2015 at 2:39PM |
|
|
good info in that link, I recall seeing other Ford documentation noting different pressure calibrations for various steering gear boxes
any chance you still have the tag on your pump Vince? HBA-BH is calibrated for a Sag gear, here's another page with application data
|
||
|
72 GT Ute
|
||
|
||
|
TV 2M8O
Senior Member
Joined: 20-September-2006 Location: Southern Ohio Status: Offline Points: 2053 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 31-March-2015 at 2:04AM |
|
|
Funny that this was in my YouTube new videos message this morning.....
How To Rebuild a Classic Thompson Style Ford Power Steering Pump Episode 205 Autorestomod |
||
 TV 2M8O OUT JOE 1976 Gran Torino S&H season 2-4 Clone Project Blog: http://tv2m8o.blogspot.com/ |
||
|
||
|
72FordGTS
Admin Group
GTS.org Admin Joined: 06-September-2005 Location: Ontario, Canada Status: Offline Points: 5854 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 31-March-2015 at 3:05PM |
|
|
Thanks guys for all the great info. So far I haven't figured anything out, but I will be sure to post if I do.
I guess the only other solution is I could swap a Saginaw P/S pump. It seems they are very easy to adjust, and they can be turned way down to have low PSI for a Mustang II rack. I'd prefer to keep my stock pump though, big dollars to upgrade, and a Saginaw pump will require a special bracket. Plus, I want to keep my car as "stock" appearing as possible.
|
||
|
Vince
1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car GTS.org Admin |
||
|
||
|
72FordGTS
Admin Group
GTS.org Admin Joined: 06-September-2005 Location: Ontario, Canada Status: Offline Points: 5854 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 01-April-2015 at 10:33AM |
|
I do still have the tag, but it's not readable unless I pull the pump and clean the tag. I checked the site and my stock pump is different from the Mustang pump. I am sure my car still has the original (never rebuilt) pump. Lares only has one pump listed for all Ford applications and so do most other remans. I did email Lares, and they said that they don't produce reduced pressure pumps. I also emailed that Stangersite, and he was a bit more helpful. He said:
It sounds like it might be possible to modify the pumps, but not easy. After reading a bunch about them, I can't figure out what to do. So it looks like my only viable option is to use the inline valve, which looks like it would involve a some custom lines and a bunch of adaptors since none of my lines will fit into as is. Or the other is a Saginaw pump swap. I did find aftermarket brackets for my engine. At this time I will probably live with what I got since none of the solutions are too cheap and everything still works fine. |
||
|
Vince
1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car GTS.org Admin |
||
|
||
|
GranTorinoSport
Admin Group
Admin of "The Org" Joined: 20-May-2003 Location: Seattle Status: Offline Points: 2287 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 01-April-2015 at 10:51AM |
|
|
Don't send your pump to Stangersite. I did, and I never saw my pump again. He would not answer the phone when I called, return calls or anything. I had proof that the pump was delivered to him, so I know he had it. And I had talked to him on the phone before I sent it, and he was quite cordial and knowledgeable.
Terrible business. |
||
|
Scott Eklund
Webmaster |
||
|
||
|
72FordGTS
Admin Group
GTS.org Admin Joined: 06-September-2005 Location: Ontario, Canada Status: Offline Points: 5854 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 07-April-2015 at 3:31PM |
|
Thanks for the heads up Scott. I actually would have sent it to him if he said he could have lowered the boost on my pump. Too bad he's so poor at business, but at least his website is decent for reference data.
|
||
|
Vince
1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car GTS.org Admin |
||
|
||
|
bata747-8
Moderator Group
Honorary Spam Bot / Zombie Account Joined: 24-June-2010 Location: China Status: Offline Points: 131 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 07-April-2015 at 6:05PM |
|
|
Yea, his website is great information and well laid out, no doubt. Also, I talked to him on the phone and he was informative, nice and made me want to do business with him.
But when I sent my pump in (sufficient information in the box to identify me, etc) suddenly he would not answer calls from 425 or 206 area codes. I left messages. Tried at various times/days. I had confirmation of delivery. Still in my garage today in fact. WTF? That was so stupid it was unbelievable. I have dealt with some scoundrels in my lifetime, but he takes the cake for the "that just don't all make sense" award. That was prob 1.5 or more years ago. Still, never a call or email. And again, I have delivery confirmation. |
||
|
Forum Test Account
(formerly a spam bot account) |
||
|
||
|
72FordGTS
Admin Group
GTS.org Admin Joined: 06-September-2005 Location: Ontario, Canada Status: Offline Points: 5854 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 11-May-2015 at 7:18AM |
|
|
It looks like from what I can find adjusting the boost on the Thompson pumps just isn't a realistic option. However, I did find that the Saginaw steering boxes can have the steering effort tuned by the "T-bar" or torsion bar inside the box. Apparently the bigger the T-bar, the better the road feel. Later model cars like Monte Carlo SS's, GM F-bodies from the 80's, and Grand Cherokees that had good steering effort used large T-bars that gave them good road feel.
So it looks like my best option may be to have a steering box builder replace my T-bar if that's possible. And for anyone looking to do a Saginaw steering swap if you want good road feel, make sure you get larger than stock T-bar installed when they are building the box.
|
||
|
Vince
1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car GTS.org Admin |
||
|
||
|
aquartlow
Senior Member
Joined: 19-December-2011 Location: Summerfield, Fl Status: Offline Points: 2271 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 11-May-2015 at 8:43AM |
|
|
Are you looking to also change to quick-ratio (12.7 to 1) internals while you have the box opened to change the T-bar?
|
||
|
www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires. No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t. Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone. |
||
|
||
|
72FordGTS
Admin Group
GTS.org Admin Joined: 06-September-2005 Location: Ontario, Canada Status: Offline Points: 5854 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 11-May-2015 at 8:52AM |
|
|
My box is already a quick ratio 12.7:1 box. I guess I should have specified to my builder to put a high effort T-bar in too, but I didn't know about it at that time. My steering box now is quite a bit quicker than stock, but the steering effort isn't much different. I know my box was built based on a Mustang Saginaw gear box, so my guess is it uses that T-bar for that steering box which would be of the low effort 1970's style steering. Edited by 72FordGTS - 11-May-2015 at 8:53AM |
||
|
Vince
1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car GTS.org Admin |
||
|
||
|
aquartlow
Senior Member
Joined: 19-December-2011 Location: Summerfield, Fl Status: Offline Points: 2271 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 11-May-2015 at 9:01AM |
|
|
Most 12.7 to 1 ratios already come with a .185 or larger T-bar installed(unless custom assembled/built). The T-bar's used in conjunction with 12.7 to 1 ratios vary from .185 to .210. Here is some great reading I went/researched through when deciding to go with a quick ratio conversion. Hope it helps. http://jimshea.corvettefaq.com/?cat=4
Edited by aquartlow - 11-May-2015 at 9:03AM |
||
|
www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires. No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t. Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone. |
||
|
||
|
72FordGTS
Admin Group
GTS.org Admin Joined: 06-September-2005 Location: Ontario, Canada Status: Offline Points: 5854 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 11-May-2015 at 9:09AM |
|
|
Thanks for the link Todd! My box was a custom build, so I have no idea what's in it. I just asked the guy to use a 1971 Mustang box and put in a 12.7:1 ratio. I have driven some factory 12.7:1 cars and they are definitely higher effort than mine. I originally just figured it was because I am using my factory Thompson pump, but it's likely the T-bar that's the issue. I don't think the Thompson pumps put out any more pressure than a Saginaw pump. I will have to send my steering box back to the builder to have he replace it or to someone else if he can't do it. From what I have read it sounds like replacing a T-bar requires disassembling the entire box which I am not sure I can do. I will probably wait until the winter when the driving season is over though. I just wish I would have known this when I had the box built a few years ago.
Edited by 72FordGTS - 11-May-2015 at 9:15AM |
||
|
Vince
1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car GTS.org Admin |
||
|
||
|
aquartlow
Senior Member
Joined: 19-December-2011 Location: Summerfield, Fl Status: Offline Points: 2271 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 11-May-2015 at 9:24AM |
|
Unless a Thompson pump has been modified it "usually" will have a lower PSI output compared to a Saginaw PS pump. Average PSI readings for a Thompson is 900-1100 whereas an avg Saginaw PS pump is 1000-1300 PSI. If you are using a Saginaw PS pump you can reduce the output PSI to increase the input effort. Here shows what can be done to increase or decrease the Saginaw PS output: These mods may save you the hassle of removing and sending your PS gearbox out. I'd hate to send it out and the rebuilder found a .195 or larger T-bar already installed  . I know I installed the guts out of a '94 Jeep Grand Cherokee's Saginaw steering box into my '79 Ranchero's Saginaw PS box. I re-used my Ranchero's input rotary valve assembly to keep the correct input spline count and rag-joint assembly, everything else installed with no machine work. The JGC box has the same output degrees, output shaft size and also has the exact same "blind" spline locations so my factory Ranchero pitman arm was a direct bolt-on. Good luck. Todd
|
||
|
www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires. No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t. Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone. |
||
|
||
|
72FordGTS
Admin Group
GTS.org Admin Joined: 06-September-2005 Location: Ontario, Canada Status: Offline Points: 5854 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 12-May-2015 at 10:15AM |
|
|
Todd,
how did the new steering box internals compare to your stock Saginaw for road feel? I emailed the company that built my box to see if they know what T-bar was used in mine. I rather alter the T-bar than at this point as I don't really want to put a Saginaw steering pump on my car if I can avoid it (brackets and pump to retrofit to my engine would be pricey and I prefer to keep it appearing more stock).
|
||
|
Vince
1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car GTS.org Admin |
||
|
||
|
aquartlow
Senior Member
Joined: 19-December-2011 Location: Summerfield, Fl Status: Offline Points: 2271 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 12-May-2015 at 10:58AM |
|
|
Vince,
I do not have a good comparison to go by due to my Ranchero wasn't driven too often or for too long during it's LENGTHY restoration. I can tell you that the quick ratio internal swap did two things: 1) made my heavy vehicle have an "almost" go-kart feel to it's steering. 2) Gave me good road-feel feedback, not like an over-assisted 70's Lincoln Towncar-esque (word?) numb-feeling feedback in the steering wheel. Sorry, for my lengthy reply into a Saginaw PS pump/Saginaw steering gear info. For whatever reason I thought you were possibly installing a Saginaw PS pump and tried to give as much info as possible  . If I were a gambling man, I would put my money on your steering gear already having a .195 T-bar, hopefully you will get a more positive yes/no answer from your rebuilder. Todd
|
||
|
www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires. No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t. Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone. |
||
|
||
|
72FordGTS
Admin Group
GTS.org Admin Joined: 06-September-2005 Location: Ontario, Canada Status: Offline Points: 5854 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 17-May-2015 at 7:17AM |
|
|
So I got a response from the steering shop. This is part of his response:
So it sounds like he'll replace it with the newer valve which he told me would increase the road feel. He said that'd I'd also have to send back the rag joint as the newer valve will require a different one. I am not even sure now if he built it to 12.7:1 it may just be the Mustang fast ratio. My steering box is probably just under 3 turns lock to lock, maybe 2 3/4's or slightly more. In any case, I am very happy with the ratio, I wounldn't want it any quicker, but I would appreciate more road feel. I guess I am getting to spoiled with the rack and pinion setup on my work car and my truck.
|
||
|
Vince
1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car GTS.org Admin |
||
|
||
|
aquartlow
Senior Member
Joined: 19-December-2011 Location: Summerfield, Fl Status: Offline Points: 2271 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 17-May-2015 at 10:13AM |
|
|
Dang, .359", that is quite a bit larger T-bar than I have even read about. Glad I didn't actually bet. With that size of T-bar, it seems you wouldn't have much chance of being "over-assisted" or have a 1 finger type of steering effort.
Edited by aquartlow - 17-May-2015 at 10:14AM |
||
|
www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires. No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t. Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone. |
||
|
||
|
72FordGTS
Admin Group
GTS.org Admin Joined: 06-September-2005 Location: Ontario, Canada Status: Offline Points: 5854 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 17-May-2015 at 10:55AM |
|
|
Todd, how many turns lock to lock is your car? I am wondering if they even put in a 12.7 ratio in my car. I think it may just be a fast ratio Mustang gear.
|
||
|
Vince
1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car GTS.org Admin |
||
|
||
|
aquartlow
Senior Member
Joined: 19-December-2011 Location: Summerfield, Fl Status: Offline Points: 2271 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 17-May-2015 at 12:36PM |
|
Vince, Mine has about 2.5-2.75 turns lock 2 lock. If they(the rebuilder) used the guts out of a '71-'73 Mustang box (SPA-Tor SPA-V) with handling package(Mach 1, Boss) it will be variable ratio. The center travel of the steering gear is less sensitive/responsive, but as the steering wheel travels to each "lock" the ratio quickens. This made this particular steering gear a bit less "twitchy" as compared to a "straight" 12.7-1 gear ratio box. This may explain the over-assist feeling you are experiencing, since in the center of travel the variable ratio box has like a 16-1 ratio but closer to each end it nears a 13-1 ratio. Here is a website that explains it a little: Hope this helps. Todd
|
||
|
www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires. No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t. Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone. |
||
|
||
|
72FordGTS
Admin Group
GTS.org Admin Joined: 06-September-2005 Location: Ontario, Canada Status: Offline Points: 5854 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 27-May-2015 at 1:07PM |
|
|
It sounds like my steering box has the same ratio or pretty close to yours then by your description. I forgot that the Mustang box was variable. The one I have is definitely constant.
FWIW, I recently drove my brothers old car with a stock Saginaw box, and I guess I just forgot how little road feel there was on a stock setup. Mine definitely has more feedback and is tighter overall. I guess I have just been spoiled by rack and pinion setups. I still want more effort though, and I am sure if I send the box back I can get it setup more to my liking.
|
||
|
Vince
1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car GTS.org Admin |
||
|
||
|
Post Reply
|
|
| Tweet |
| Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |
Topic Options
californiajohnny wrote: