Modified engine question |
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swampbug
Member Joined: 19-August-2015 Location: South Carolina Status: Offline Points: 130 |
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Posted: 19-August-2015 at 1:45PM |
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I'm just getting back to working on my gts after a 10 year hiatus. I've been doing alot of reading and now im concerned I made some mistakes back in the day.
So i had a 351m crate that i broke down to dress up. After some advice i ended up getting the cylinders bored out 90 over and having the heads shaved down to increase the compression ratio. at the time the machinist said Id be looking at about 9.5 to 1 ratio on compression and would need to run high end octane fuel. I don't know if those numbers were right or if it was a good move. Would I be better off starting over, or will it be ok?
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1973 Gran Torino Sport
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lynchster
Senior Member Joined: 07-January-2006 Location: Pennsylvania Status: Offline Points: 2150 |
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.090 over? I'd say that was definitely too much but I do mostly body and suspension work. If that's the case a 400 is the same size as the 351M.
Edited by lynchster - 20-August-2015 at 1:41PM |
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Chuck
72 Gran Torino Sport 13 Taurus SHO "Mr Pig" |
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72FordGTS
Admin Group GTS.org Admin Joined: 06-September-2005 Location: Ontario, Canada Status: Offline Points: 5854 |
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A 400 is not the same as a 351M. A 351M shares many parts with a 400, but the 351M displaces 351 cid and has a 3.5" stroke. The 400 displaces 402 cid and has a 4" stroke. Further the 351M only used the poorer 1975+ heads with the restrictive exhaust port, while early 400's (1971-74) used 351C 2V heads. People often think that the 351M/400 is one engine, but that is two separate engines (351M and 400). Ford used this label on engines to describe the engine family (for 1975+), not the name. Any 335 series engine block (351C, 400, 351M) is usuaully only good for a ,040" overbore from what I have heard. I doubt it was .090" over. Not only would the block not go that far, but there wouldn't be any pistons for that size. It's a good idea to boost the compression, but there is really no good aftermarket pistons for a 351M. Your best bet is to stroke it to 400, and get some decent pistons from Tmeyer Inc. He's got the only decent pistons for the 400 Ford. He's also pretty much "the expert" on Ford 400's. |
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Vince
1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car GTS.org Admin |
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swampbug
Member Joined: 19-August-2015 Location: South Carolina Status: Offline Points: 130 |
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All this machine work was done around 2004, so it was awhile ago. The only numbers i remember were 90 over and 9.5 to 1. The engine shop that did the modifications also provided the piston caps and valve set. I was young and dumb and though bigger is better, so i asked him to push it as far as it would go. He wasnt sure if there was enough meat on the cylinders but it worked out.
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1973 Gran Torino Sport
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72FordGTS
Admin Group GTS.org Admin Joined: 06-September-2005 Location: Ontario, Canada Status: Offline Points: 5854 |
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What car is this engine going into? Was it originally a 351M?
I don't think I'd keep that block if it was actually .090 over. Like I said, .040 is usually the max for these blocks. Plus, I don't know how accurate that 9.5:1 number would be considering how low compression the 351M was in stock form. They'd have to shave a TON off the heads and I think it'd throw other things out because of the amount of material removed. You might be best off to tear down the engine and do some measurements to see what you actually have. I still think though if you are going to stick with a 351M you should stroke it to 400. There are no good aftermarket 351M pistons. TMeyer sells decent pistons that will give you around 9.5:1 compression with stock heads and they also zero deck to help prevent detonation problems.
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Vince
1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car GTS.org Admin |
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swampbug
Member Joined: 19-August-2015 Location: South Carolina Status: Offline Points: 130 |
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Original motor for my car/vin was a 400. I got it with the 351m which was actually a crate motor replacing the original right before I got it.
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1973 Gran Torino Sport
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swampbug
Member Joined: 19-August-2015 Location: South Carolina Status: Offline Points: 130 |
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From what ive heard, a 400 is not what I want, so I guess I could look for a 351c.
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1973 Gran Torino Sport
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Rockatansky
Senior Member Joined: 30-July-2010 Location: On The Road Status: Offline Points: 6072 |
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the Ford 400 is probably the most versatile engine I can think of, capable of stellar all around performance in a truck, wagon or daily driver grocery getter using 2V heads it'll make 400 hp stupid easy... or it can be built to make totally insane power using 351C-4V heads there was a puller truck Shazam that claimed 799 hp & 600+ is not uncommon from 400-4V builds so what have you heard that makes you think a 400 is not right for you? did someone tell you it's a boat anchor? Edited by Rockatansky - 21-August-2015 at 9:55AM |
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72 GT Ute
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swampbug
Member Joined: 19-August-2015 Location: South Carolina Status: Offline Points: 130 |
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I have heard boat anchor, issues with detonation, etc. But I have also heard some decent things, your info being the most positive. I'm really not leaning anyway, since I don't have the knowledge or experience to do that. Mostly just going by others recommendations. I am looking into a 429 atm, but I don't know that I can swing it. I just know that I wont use the 351m i have for fear of thin walls.
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Rockatansky
Senior Member Joined: 30-July-2010 Location: On The Road Status: Offline Points: 6072 |
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the .090" overbore you stated is 99.100% probably not correct
FWIW all modern castings are of the 'thinwall' type, for some reason (chevy based ragazines) only ford gets the put-downs for ailments that afflict most / all manufacturers also, if the motor has been sitting that long not pickled & sealed tight in stretch wrap plastic it should have the heads pulled off to ensure that the cylinders are in good condition with no rodent homes in them. at this time you can verify the oversize of the bores and either take the rest of the motor down & upgrade to 400 crank & pistons, or just be able to let a prospective buyer hand you (more) cash with confidence of what he's getting the 351M came out at what had to be the worst time in history for an engine debut with the EPA pulling tetraethyl lead out of the fuel, it wasn't just the 351M doin the engine knock / run-on thang they all were ========================= if you're interested, the biggest problem with the 351M & 400 is the top of piston to deck clearance, it could be that the .090" stuck in your mind is that figure? so anyway the first step to fixing the Ford 400 is getting the pistons to the top of the deck @ TDC, Tim Meyer has his own personal line of pistons made by KB that address this issue http://www.tmeyerinc.com/category-s/1832.htm and not a bad price either for many years in a row the Ford 400 was stompin 'em out at the Engine Masters Competition basically the 400 is a 351C that's factory stroked to 400 inches in a tall deck block
Edited by Rockatansky - 21-August-2015 at 10:47AM |
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72 GT Ute
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Big Bird
Senior Member Joined: 25-August-2013 Location: New York Status: Offline Points: 4194 |
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Just like a 351W is a stroked, tall-deck 302.
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Randy 1979 T-Bird 2005 F-150 STX RCSB 4.6, 3.55 LSD How the Heck does a REGULAR CAB SHORTBED weigh over 5200 pounds? |
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Rockatansky
Senior Member Joined: 30-July-2010 Location: On The Road Status: Offline Points: 6072 |
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that's a good analogy
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72 GT Ute
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lynchster
Senior Member Joined: 07-January-2006 Location: Pennsylvania Status: Offline Points: 2150 |
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I only said it's the same size as it will fill the same space as the 351M.
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Chuck
72 Gran Torino Sport 13 Taurus SHO "Mr Pig" |
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Rockatansky
Senior Member Joined: 30-July-2010 Location: On The Road Status: Offline Points: 6072 |
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they use the exact same cast code blocks & heads, aside from the factory V-cover sticker they're indistinguishable from the outside unless a 400 has the original heavy balancer on it
Edited by Rockatansky - 23-August-2015 at 5:45PM |
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72 GT Ute
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Rockatansky
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hey Swampbug, I forgot to ask if your block might have the dual bellhousing pattern on it?
missing distributor rib? core plugs in the valley? anybody ever seen a factory 400-4V intake (Rare is an understatement) casting code, XE as in Experimental EGR plate Edited by Rockatansky - 23-August-2015 at 5:57PM |
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72 GT Ute
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72FordGTS
Admin Group GTS.org Admin Joined: 06-September-2005 Location: Ontario, Canada Status: Offline Points: 5854 |
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I apologize Chuck, my mistake. I thought you were talking displacement not physical size. There are lots of people who think the 351M/400 is one engine...
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Vince
1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car GTS.org Admin |
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Rockatansky
Senior Member Joined: 30-July-2010 Location: On The Road Status: Offline Points: 6072 |
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72 GT Ute
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