351 Cleveland Starter Suggestions |
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GoldFinger
Senior Member Joined: 03-April-2015 Location: North Carolina Status: Offline Points: 295 |
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Posted: 23-December-2015 at 3:42PM |
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Hello,
So I want to replace the starter on my 351 Cleveland. Is as a strong running 2v headed engine, with the original exhaust manifolds as of right now. I hope in the next month or two to go with headers. can anyone suggest a good starter? I'm really not looking to do a whole bunch of modifying, I just want a good starter maybe a little smaller than what I have, any suggestions would be appreciated, Thanks! |
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DARE to be DIFFERENT!!
73 GTS |
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aquartlow
Senior Member Joined: 19-December-2011 Location: Summerfield, Fl Status: Offline Points: 2270 |
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Definitely go with a PMGR(Permanent Magnet Gear Reduction) starter. Just for reference, this is the difference between a "regular" and PMGR Ford 460 starter:
Not entirely positive, since I deal with big blocks more than small blocks, but I believe a factory PMGR from a 90's Mustang 5.0 will directly fit(at least this is what I have heard/read). I will tell you that once you install a PMGR, you won't go back to the "regular" type of starter due to starting power and way more room for exhaust/headers. Good luck.
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Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires. No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t. Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone. |
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Rockatansky
Senior Member Joined: 30-July-2010 Location: On The Road Status: Offline Points: 6059 |
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don't forget there's a minor wiring change for the new style starter
I think I'd like to run a new longer positive battery cable straight to the solenoid rather than feed the starter through stacking the cables on the front side of the original fender solenoid then feed the fender solenoid with a jumper of the battery terminal clamp bolt or a dedicated whip built into the positive cable and of course run the S terminal down to the mini-starter solenoid also Edited by Rockatansky - 24-December-2015 at 2:02AM |
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aquartlow
Senior Member Joined: 19-December-2011 Location: Summerfield, Fl Status: Offline Points: 2270 |
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Yes, I did leave that "little" detail out. In my defense I said it would "directly fit", I never said it would actually work . It surely wouldn't without the wiring change! All kidding aside the PMGR starter is a fairly cheap upgrade that really delivers "bang for the buck" results.
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www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires. No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t. Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone. |
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mach1000
Senior Member Joined: 09-December-2015 Location: Utica NY Status: Offline Points: 261 |
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Watch out if you have headers. I had a clearance problem with a slick small starter that wouldn't fit with headers. The stock one had no issues to the small one was returned to Summit Racing.
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Mach1000
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GoldFinger
Senior Member Joined: 03-April-2015 Location: North Carolina Status: Offline Points: 295 |
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So what do I really need to change or do?..I'm not really strong with wiring. |
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DARE to be DIFFERENT!!
73 GTS |
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aquartlow
Senior Member Joined: 19-December-2011 Location: Summerfield, Fl Status: Offline Points: 2270 |
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Here is a simple diagram for the wiring change, though the solenoid design is different, it works the same way as your "typical" 70's Ford fender mounted starter solenoid.
1st remove the (+) battery cable from the battery top post to avoid sparks or worse. Now remove the large gauge original starter wire from the stud facing the firewall and re-install it on the battery side of the solenoid along with the battery cable. The smaller gauge "trigger" wire that engages the starter or sends a signal that tells the starter to engage/spin, attaches to the stud facing the firewall. The original Green/red stripe wire is retained on the "S" terminal of the fender mounted solenoid. Re-install the battery cable to the battery post and enjoy much easier starts. Hope this helps.
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www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires. No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t. Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone. |
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californiajohnny
Moderator Group Joined: 05-October-2013 Location: winlock, wa Status: Offline Points: 14606 |
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i just have to throw in my 2 cents here...isn't it funny how a chevy designed starter is better, just like the gm HEI dist. that everyone bad mouths haha take that haters
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JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE 74 VETTE CUSTOM 90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED 77 CELICA CUSTOM 75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED 79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED 75 VEGA V6 5 SPD 70 CHEV C10 P/U 68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION |
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aquartlow
Senior Member Joined: 19-December-2011 Location: Summerfield, Fl Status: Offline Points: 2270 |
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Too bad it took GM so long to figure out how to do away with shimming their starters , I really hated the GM designed copy of the 70's 460 starter, although nothing that a few swings of a hammer and few cuss words wouldn't fix . I always thought Chrysler came out with the gear reduction starter first.
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www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires. No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t. Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone. |
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californiajohnny
Moderator Group Joined: 05-October-2013 Location: winlock, wa Status: Offline Points: 14606 |
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the only issue i've ever seen about having to shim the starters was if the block or starter nose cone was surfaced!
i think Chrysler did use the reduction gear starters first, and they sucked IMO, no mistaken the sound of one of those, but what i hate is you're watching a movie and they dub in the Chrysler starter sound on a ford or GM, really !!??? |
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JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE 74 VETTE CUSTOM 90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED 77 CELICA CUSTOM 75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED 79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED 75 VEGA V6 5 SPD 70 CHEV C10 P/U 68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION |
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lynchster
Senior Member Joined: 07-January-2006 Location: Pennsylvania Status: Offline Points: 2150 |
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The end of the "Gone in 60 Seconds" remake.
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Chuck
72 Gran Torino Sport 13 Taurus SHO "Mr Pig" |
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californiajohnny
Moderator Group Joined: 05-October-2013 Location: winlock, wa Status: Offline Points: 14606 |
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JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE 74 VETTE CUSTOM 90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED 77 CELICA CUSTOM 75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED 79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED 75 VEGA V6 5 SPD 70 CHEV C10 P/U 68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION |
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GoldFinger
Senior Member Joined: 03-April-2015 Location: North Carolina Status: Offline Points: 295 |
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Ha!
Well I remembered that there is an OE coil on the car right now. I just got a petronix coil to go with the Igniter that's been installed. I want to see if that makes a difference before changing the starter out.. |
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DARE to be DIFFERENT!!
73 GTS |
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Eliteman76
Admin Group Joined: 20-March-2006 Location: Nebraska, USA Status: Offline Points: 5044 |
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I went with a starter for an '88 Bronco with a 5.8 and 5 speed. Works great. My car is a 4 speed however, so the nose is a bit shorter.
Edited by Eliteman76 - 10-January-2016 at 2:17PM |
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Andrew:GTS.ORG admin, '72 Q code 5 speed Restomod
Pondering: #99Problems |
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Rockatansky
Senior Member Joined: 30-July-2010 Location: On The Road Status: Offline Points: 6059 |
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and the register (big circle hole that the starter fits into) is a different size!here's a run-down on the variations of Ford starters http://www.network54.com/Forum/136503/message/1200873076/starter+info+from+RobbMc
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72 GT Ute
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russosborne
Senior Member Joined: 01-January-2015 Location: Glendale AZ Status: Offline Points: 664 |
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Does anyone have any experience with these?
http://www.dbelectrical.com/p-9936-ford-mini-pmgr-racing-starter-302-351-higher-torque-3205-sfd0001.aspx Price seems way low for a quality part, but I can be convinced otherwise. thanks, russ |
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aquartlow
Senior Member Joined: 19-December-2011 Location: Summerfield, Fl Status: Offline Points: 2270 |
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Russ, The PMGR starter I pictured above is a DB Electrical starter, albeit for a 460. I had issues with 3 different Db starters. had to send each back, but I will say DB was quick to get the starts back and the return process was relatively easy. The issue with all of them was that after a week or two they would all start grinding the flexplate/flywheel during the starting process, I picked up a used PMGR factory starter for a '94 F350 w/460 auto and it never gave me any grinding issues. The returned to me DB starter sat on my shelf for over a year until the used factory starter started to get a little slower at turning over(it was 20+ years old). I looked at the two starters side by side and I found that the DB unit's Bendix teeth weren't chamfered (like the factory Motorcraft Bendix) to allow a smoother engagement onto the flexplate, I swapped the factory Bendix into the DB starter (it was a direct fit)and it hasn't given me any grinding issues since I installed it 8 months ago. The DB 302/351 starter may not have this issue, but just wanted to give you a "heads-up" of what I found. Good luck.
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www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires. No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t. Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone. |
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russosborne
Senior Member Joined: 01-January-2015 Location: Glendale AZ Status: Offline Points: 664 |
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Thanks, that is good information.
For the price it may be worth the risk, I just am worried about being stranded But at least from your experience that isn't a concern. Russ |
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aquartlow
Senior Member Joined: 19-December-2011 Location: Summerfield, Fl Status: Offline Points: 2270 |
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Russ,
It never failed to start, just embarrassing when you have a guy or two say how nice your ride is then attempt to start and hear the SCREETCH/GRINDING, kinda takes the smiles off your and their faces. I would purchase another JY Motorcraft PMGR starter in a heartbeat, just a hit and miss deal when I am out "pickin' ", you may be surprised how much plastic/nylon parts make up the internals of these starters, factory or not. Good luck with either choice, the PMGR's are a definite upgrade in my book.
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www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires. No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t. Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone. |
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russosborne
Senior Member Joined: 01-January-2015 Location: Glendale AZ Status: Offline Points: 664 |
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Thanks.
I am a tad leery about these since it seems you have to have the starter cable always hot. That isn't a good thing. I had a 70 GTO that the cable shorted out on me on the freeway and started a fire. I had to scoop up dirt from the side of the road to put it out. And i have also had problems in the distant past with a starter with an internal short. That would kill a battery very quickly with this setup. I am trying to figure out why you can't still just use the start side of the Ford solenoid to feed the starter and it's solenoid. I like the idea of the starter design enough to consider using it. I really don't like always hot starter cables, to repeat myself. Russ |
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Chris E
Member Joined: 03-August-2013 Location: florida Status: Offline Points: 87 |
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Just replaced the old starter with a pmgr starter on ole blue!!!! could not be happier with it. Thanks for posting the diagram todd. never going back to the old starter.
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Chris E
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aquartlow
Senior Member Joined: 19-December-2011 Location: Summerfield, Fl Status: Offline Points: 2270 |
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Glad to hear you are as happy with your PMGR starter as I was with mine, it's one of those mods where you question yourself as to "why didn't I do this sooner". Also happy the diagram was helpful toward your install.
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www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires. No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t. Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone. |
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