More Efficiency and Power for 400ci V8? |
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Torino_Chris
Member Joined: 19-July-2016 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 120 |
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Posted: 26-August-2016 at 9:19PM |
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Okay, it's settled then. Let's get some 700+ horses out of this thing, MrSmog and John
But seriously, I think I've decided to do a complete "engine front job" once I have enough money again. I'll need a new radiator at some point, too. So I think it makes sense if I just do all these things in one big service:
Does that make sense? I'm still thinking about a new carb+intake, but that's independent from all that. Apart from the costs Then, if I ever have the money, time and space, I could install new heads and cam when I pull the enginge out for a refurb. But that's far far away for now. |
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MrSmog
Senior Member Joined: 21-January-2016 Location: Ky Status: Offline Points: 1407 |
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nitrous, smog motors LOVE the juice. |
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72FordGTS
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If the shop does the work, they may want to drop the oil pan to do the job, or at least loosen it. I take it they have experience working on American V8 engines? That link I posted is where Rockatansky outlines what has to be done to do the job without touching the oil pan. I followed his instructions and it worked out fine. They would have to trim the front cover, just like in the photo I posted. My worry about loosening the pan was that the original oil pan gasket would fall apart once it was disturbed then I be into replacing the oil pan gasket too. As for the water pump and fuel pump, there is no need to replace them if they are in working order. The water pump can be inspected to see if it's worth changing or not. Both parts are pretty cheap, especially if you go with stock replacement parts. Both are relatively easy to replace later too if you don't change them now. It's not like a timing belt that drives the water pump on some modern engines, where it makes sense to replace the waterpump while changing the belt (my wife's old Honda was like that).
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Vince
1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car GTS.org Admin |
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californiajohnny
Moderator Group Joined: 05-October-2013 Location: winlock, wa Status: Offline Points: 14606 |
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that would be about a good cam to use but on another note, as i've been thinking about this all day today... if the CR is down to about under 8:1 or less as i think was mentioned earlier, that would be about right for an underdriven blower, or turbo! (many issues solved )
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JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE 74 VETTE CUSTOM 90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED 77 CELICA CUSTOM 75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED 79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED 75 VEGA V6 5 SPD 70 CHEV C10 P/U 68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION |
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gnrlee01
Senior Member Joined: 04-August-2013 Location: iowa Status: Offline Points: 345 |
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i got the info from the kit that i have that includes a high volume melling oil pump, a double roller timing set, everything needed for converting over to a complete roller rocker/roller cam set up and new valve springs along with 2 sets of pushrods
the kit number is "comp cams k32-421-8" the actual cam box says 32-421-8 cam specs are int 270 exh 270 dur @ 0.50: 215 215 lobe sep 110.0 valve lift 0.566 0.566 sn# wl3719-15 as the other guys have mentioned, it is DEFINITELY worth replacing the timing set at the very least...the same thing happened to my first torino, causing my oil pressure to drop and stay low, than as a grand finally took out 2 of my main bearings at the same moment...talk about a screaming banshee, the sound pitch it was making before i shut it off was absolutely deafening. |
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74 gts 460/auto with factory sunroof
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californiajohnny
Moderator Group Joined: 05-October-2013 Location: winlock, wa Status: Offline Points: 14606 |
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that would be it chris
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JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE 74 VETTE CUSTOM 90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED 77 CELICA CUSTOM 75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED 79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED 75 VEGA V6 5 SPD 70 CHEV C10 P/U 68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION |
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n2fordwagons
Senior Member Joined: 20-July-2013 Location: GA Status: Offline Points: 2252 |
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Ha ha. Or, in my case, my wife's wallet.
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Jeff
71 Torino Brougham 72 Gran Torino Squire |
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Torino_Chris
Member Joined: 19-July-2016 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 120 |
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Well I might as well have the workshop do it since the car is there at the moment anyway. Question is how they would solve this oil pan problem... And when all these things are apart it would probably be smart to renew the water and fuel pumps as well at which point it gets more and more expensive...
Oh well...decisions, decisions. And just to be sure, we're talking about such a set, rigth? -> http://www.edelbrockproducts.eu/en/edelbrock-7821-edelbrock-timing-chain-and-gear-set.html |
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72FordGTS
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Chris, I think you should change the chain for peace of mind to ensure you don't have the nylon teeth and to get rid of the retarded timing set. I replaced my stock timing set with a Cloyes double roller set and noticed no difference in sound either. I replaced mine as a preventative measure as I was worried about the nylon teeth coming apart. Surprisingly when I did the job, the nylon teeth were in excellent shape. That said, the chain had pretty good slop in it. You can check the timing chain slack by turning the crank each direction and watching the distributor rotor to give you an idea of how much slack is in the chain. If you go to youtube I am sure you can find a video that would show the process. The job isn't too bad to do but a little above basic skill set. If you think it's too hard, it might be worth paying a mechanic, like I said to be sure you don't have that nylon timing set. You don't have to remove the rad, but everything else Johnny said is spot on. I didn't want to touch the oil pan on mine. You can take the front cover off the engine without loosening the oil pan, but to get it back on you need to trim the cover. Rockatansky was the one who showed me the method, but I included a pic below so you can see what I am talking about. Here's a thread that Rockatansky talks about the method: Here is where you have to trim the cover: Edited by 72FordGTS - 21-August-2016 at 12:53PM |
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Vince
1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car GTS.org Admin |
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californiajohnny
Moderator Group Joined: 05-October-2013 Location: winlock, wa Status: Offline Points: 14606 |
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todd: yes that's the reason i was told ...to prevent noise, yeah i've never heard a steel gear and chain make noise either!!!
chris: it's not too bad of a job...remove the water pump,hoses and probably the radiator as well, harmonic balancer (harmonic balancer puller needed) and a few bolts at the front of the oil pan and bolts around the timing cover , oh and remove the fuel pump |
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JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE 74 VETTE CUSTOM 90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED 77 CELICA CUSTOM 75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED 79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED 75 VEGA V6 5 SPD 70 CHEV C10 P/U 68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION |
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Torino_Chris
Member Joined: 19-July-2016 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 120 |
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So you're saying I should install a new timing chain set to prevent this happening to me, right? How difficult is that when you've never done it before? I have no idea wether this might have been done already or not..but it sure sounds like I want to check it |
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aquartlow
Senior Member Joined: 19-December-2011 Location: Summerfield, Fl Status: Offline Points: 2270 |
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Never really understood the nylon gear teeth install. I have yet to hear a double roller or "regular" timing set make ANY appreciable noise that could be heard above the fan and/or exhaust noise. More of just an issue waiting to happen(Teeth shearing off). I remember seeing/helping my dad change a timing set on his '73 Ranchero w/ 351C 4barrel and wondering then why there was plastic teeth on the timing gear(and I was 10-11 at the time--gearhead in the making).
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www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires. No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t. Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone. |
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californiajohnny
Moderator Group Joined: 05-October-2013 Location: winlock, wa Status: Offline Points: 14606 |
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yep, that's what the screen in my blazer looked like! when i bought it! first thing was swap in another engine because the clog took out the #3 main bearing
plastic belongs in your wallet, not your engine |
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JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE 74 VETTE CUSTOM 90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED 77 CELICA CUSTOM 75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED 79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED 75 VEGA V6 5 SPD 70 CHEV C10 P/U 68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION |
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Rockatansky
Senior Member Joined: 30-July-2010 Location: On The Road Status: Offline Points: 6059 |
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the breathing is not the issue, the engine doesn't do anything worthwhile with the air it gets. swapping the heads for dead ringer stock look alikes will only change the thermal efficiency, exactly what you've deemed 'hopeless'. the Australian 302C heads I refer to are externally almost identical with the same 2V porting and retain the use of the stock original 2bbl intake. there are car show judges that can't spot them. as far as being too performance, not unless you get really serious building the rest of the internal engine, the Aus heads only bring the compression ratio up to what it should be for a normal production engine. you could do the head swap w/o the cam & see where you're at as far as being satisfied, or wait until you get more experience & confidence in your own wrenching abilities under your belt to open up the front cover ... but as mentioned that is where the 2nd major issue with the 400 hides, the timing sprockets. they really need to be addressed before the nylon covering from the cam sprocket fouls the entire engine! these pics are of the oil pump screen clogged with debris, the Yellow stuff is nylon from the cam sprocket. see the clean spot on the screen in the 2nd pic? when the screen clogged completely the suction from the pump pulled the screen away from the metal strap that covers a hole in the screen, and all the jank that was there got sucked into the pump. that's why this engine out of the car & dead on it's back it's possible that your engine has already been serviced with a steel cam sprocket, maybe ? I'd do the preventive maint service before it's too late, and add some common sense upgrades like compression & camshaft for the satisfaction. visually it will look exactly as it does now, the only tell will be that it doesn't run like a turd all the help you need is here when you're ready
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72 GT Ute
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Torino_Chris
Member Joined: 19-July-2016 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 120 |
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No argument about that obviously. But like a I said, I don't want to transform it into a performance engine or anything and I also don't want to change it from stock too much. I was just wondering if it would be worth it to help it breathe a little better, and if that would make a difference in everyday ease of driving that's noticeable Improving MPGs seems to be rather hopeless as it seems
Vince, that sounds encouraging I think I'm not ready to start messing with the ignition yet, but we'll see. I just bought the car, so.. Installing an EFI System is too much of a difference from the original for my taste. These enginges are fed by carbs and it should stay that way for mine :-) But thanks for suggesting it! |
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72FordGTS
Admin Group GTS.org Admin Joined: 06-September-2005 Location: Ontario, Canada Status: Offline Points: 5802 |
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Back to the original post, like I said, I have almost the same car and same engine as him. I can say without a doubt the 4bbl car and intake and the timing chain are worthwhile upgrades. My timing chain was straight up OEM, but I replaced it due to the age and risk of the nylon teeth breaking down, but a straight up timing chain on a 1973 engine would definitely make it more responsive. That said, I also converted my distributor from points to electronic, played with the ignition advance too. These things really made the engine much more responsive and have better high RPM performance.
Another consideration instead of a 4bbl carb update, could also be using one of those FITech Fuel injection systems. This would surely improve drivability, and likely performance and MPG. A little more money than a carb, but at least with a stock 400 you could run the cheapest setup. The only issue I have read with these systems is when you used the optional Fuel Command Center. Seems the best bet is to just run an electric pump with a feed and return line. A bit more work, but still not that hard. |
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Vince
1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car GTS.org Admin |
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72FordGTS
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I haven't seen that particular link before, but it looks like it was just copied and pasted from Bubba's M-block page. I was doing some reading on his page today and it seems that there were about 8 different 400 cylinder head castings. They all varied the combustion chamber volume quite a bit more than I expected, since most just say that the 400's have 78cc heads, but it looks like they actually ranged from about 74-78cc. They also have one head that is cast 1971 only, one 1971-1973 (early) than one head 1973-74. Also it looks like there are at least three different part numbers for 400 pistons, D1AZ6108A-B, D2AZ6108G-H and D3AZ6108G-H. So maybe the 1972 engines did have a bit higher compression ration than the 1973 engines like Ford listed. After reading all this and seeing the smaller head CC size, I am almost wondering if the smaller 74 cc heads were used with the 32cc pistons. I don't know, bubba's page isn't complete and nobody else really took an interested in documenting factory 400 parts because they were low-po engines even in there best form. Also came across this thread here where the guy has a 1972 400 - GT40man. He claims where he tears down the engine, it has flat tops. When I tear my engine down, I will have to see what mine has and what the actual CC of the heads are. In any case, it seems most 400's were built post 1975 with the worst heads, lowest compression, and tuned for really low RPM power These are the engines most people seem to have experience with, not the 1971-74 engines. That said, I do think these early 400 are more responsive than people give them credit for. My '72 is no rocket, but it's not a slouch either (for reference my daily driver has almost 400 hp) especially compared to many of the other smogger era engines I have driven. I know I have talk to a few others who have driven early 400's that claimed they were decent performers too (as a lo-po V8).
Edited by 72FordGTS - 20-August-2016 at 3:06PM |
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Vince
1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car GTS.org Admin |
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gnrlee01
Senior Member Joined: 04-August-2013 Location: iowa Status: Offline Points: 345 |
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ive got a hi-po roller cam, lifter, valve spring and other goodies set for the 400 if anyone is interested in it. i cant use it since i no longer have the engine to put them in.
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74 gts 460/auto with factory sunroof
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Rockatansky
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as far as the slight differences in published CR making a difference, I don't think they give a
I just remembered the time I drove a 1979 F series strap tow truck on a fairly long recovery, 351M / manual trans / un-known rear gear. I may be off a point or 2 but as I recall the MPG only changed by about .7 with a mid 70's Grand Marquis on the hook, 7.9 mpg empty & 7.2 pulling it home in their drastic state of de-tune they just don't respond much to anything
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72 GT Ute
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Rockatansky
Senior Member Joined: 30-July-2010 Location: On The Road Status: Offline Points: 6059 |
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several mentions of a 'small cam'
this can be used to trick the engine into thinking it has more compression ratio, specifically Dynamic Compression Ratio, it takes into consideration the timing of the intake valve closing and the cylinder actually starting to compress the contents 'BIG' performance cams close the intake valve later in hopes of a scavenging effect helping to pull in more air/fuel, there is less available stroke left from the time the valve closes to compress - lower DCR 'small' cams close the intake valve earlier and the result is more stroke / time available for compression - higher DCR
Edited by Rockatansky - 19-August-2016 at 5:00PM |
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72 GT Ute
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Rockatansky
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Aw Shucks, ... thanks man!
I just found this I'm reading it as you are, or maybe you've seen it? I was aware of the 15-16cc dish piston but have not ever heard of the 32cc piston using .065" deck clearance; an 8:1 400 with 16cc pistons and stock 78cc heads, change to 63cc heads it makes 9:1 a 32cc piston 400 makes 7.17:1, change to 63cc heads and it makes 7.95:1 do we think 9:1 can run on goat piss 89 octane?
Edited by Rockatansky - 19-August-2016 at 4:47PM |
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72 GT Ute
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72FordGTS
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Rock, you're the resident 335 series expert here (or at least that's what I think), so maybe you could answer a couple of questions. Everyone talks as if the 1971 400 was the holy grail of Ford 400's, but I am not sure how much more powerful it was than the later 400's. I have a bunch of old magazine road tests, including ones of the 1971 Ford full-size cars with 400's. The performance numbers on the 1971, 1972, 1973 cars all are pretty much the same? Now I know that you can't put too much weight in magazine tests, but to me it seems like the real world performance wasn't all that much different. I know that actual compression ratios on these engines were less than what Ford quoted, so maybe that was the case too for the 1971 engine. What I always found interesting is that the 71 is listed at 9.0:1, the 1972's were listed at 8.4:1, than 1973 and newer are 8:1. I know most people group 1972 and newer 400's together, but do you think there may have actually been a compression difference in 1972? Why would Ford have quoted that number otherwise? Wouldn't a set of Australian heads with stock deck clearances be a recipe for excessive detonation? Again I can say that the bolts on did make an improvement in my 400 overall, but it's got a long way to come yet. I just plan on doing the entire engine and want to use TMI pistons to make some real power. |
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Vince
1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car GTS.org Admin |
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Rockatansky
Senior Member Joined: 30-July-2010 Location: On The Road Status: Offline Points: 6059 |
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the problem with the 'post 1971' 400 is the lack of compression ratio & thermal efficiency
bolt-on's are just lipstick on a pig w/o going into the bottom end, a set of Australian closed chamber heads, a cam and distributor recurve can wake the crap out of the 400 & still appear bone stock with the factory intake carb & log manifolds on paper the stock CR is barely 8:1, in realville it's less. if the engine doesn't make power in the combustion chamber there's nothing you can do to fix that after the fact maybe Allen's not telling something ?
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72 GT Ute
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72FordGTS
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Maybe his 400 is a 71 as they had flat top pistons and higher compression than any other factory 400. 1971 and 72 also ran straight up timing set. I believe the earlier 400 had different cam specs too. Who knows the engine could have a small cam too.
All I know is my 72 400 has always run strong. I think the later 400 weren't as reponsive. |
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Vince
1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car GTS.org Admin |
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unlovedford
Senior Member Joined: 17-December-2010 Location: Tennessee Status: Offline Points: 10142 |
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No timing chain swap by Allan. Actually, I now remember having a light blue '74 Ranchero GT with the 400 I scrapped that had new duals but was still running the stock intake and carb. It ran well, but did not sound and run like his.
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Joe
1972 Mom's Squire Wagon 1972 Torino Wagon 1976 Torino 1968 Cougar XR7-First batch 1972 Torino 460 1989 BroncoII/Jeeps/Titanimous Popeye and Brutus (Rams) |
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aquartlow
Senior Member Joined: 19-December-2011 Location: Summerfield, Fl Status: Offline Points: 2270 |
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A wideband is basically an air/fuel gauge, it monitors how lean or rich your engine is running, really helps with power, mileage and drivability. I use this cheap, but reliable wideband: It really helped with tuning both of my Holley carbs(770 and 870 Street Avengers) for more power, drivability and mileage. Hope this helps.
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www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires. No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t. Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone. |
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Torino_Chris
Member Joined: 19-July-2016 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 120 |
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That's true, but that really exceeds my budget and expertise. I also don't want to change it too much from the original. So from your answers I understand that a new timing chain set would be worth the effort, if just because it is probabyly worn out anyway. Also nice to eliminate some of the factory retardery with little money. Dual exhausts are already installed and are still as new. I think that's an H-Pipe I've got there. So that's taken care of already
Sorry but..what is a wideband? I've already read about that fan thing, that might be something to look into as well at some point I think. Gotta check how much I can change such things without losing the "historic" registration status. As for giving the stock carb a good tune, that thing is leaky anyway. So I might as well exchange it with an edelbrock and then take my time to rebuild the stock one, right? |
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MrSmog
Senior Member Joined: 21-January-2016 Location: Ky Status: Offline Points: 1407 |
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yep, take into account the factory retard built into them and add 80k+ miles on em and they can act real lazy. |
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californiajohnny
Moderator Group Joined: 05-October-2013 Location: winlock, wa Status: Offline Points: 14606 |
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joe, did allan put in a new chain? years age my dad had a 76 f100 4x4 with a well used 360, years down the line another buddy got it, he told me it now is awesome, told me to go drive it so then i asked him what the hell did he do to it --rebuild it??? he said no, just a timing chain!!!
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JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE 74 VETTE CUSTOM 90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED 77 CELICA CUSTOM 75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED 79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED 75 VEGA V6 5 SPD 70 CHEV C10 P/U 68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION |
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unlovedford
Senior Member Joined: 17-December-2010 Location: Tennessee Status: Offline Points: 10142 |
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Question on the 400 - When I had the LTD, it ran, but not great. Allan gets it, puts a really fine tune on it (carb, timing) and it ran like you added another 100 horses. Same intake, carb, exhaust as was on it when I owned it. My question is this, it now sounds like it has a nice cam in it, although it did not sound that way at all before the tune (admittedly, it barely ran). Hits a nice lick, instantaneous response, fast starting. Allan and I discussed it at length, and although the cam is unknown, has anyone here with a 400 experienced a stock cam "coming alive" after getting some detailed attention? Is this a known 400 trait?
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Joe
1972 Mom's Squire Wagon 1972 Torino Wagon 1976 Torino 1968 Cougar XR7-First batch 1972 Torino 460 1989 BroncoII/Jeeps/Titanimous Popeye and Brutus (Rams) |
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