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Need electrical help!

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Hoosiermike View Drop Down
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    Posted: 13-October-2016 at 9:26AM
HELP!  i need ideas.  a week ago i purchased a 72 Gran Torino 4dr sedan in excellent shape.  Car was not listed for sale.  Spotted it driving down a side street, stopped and made a deal.  No battery in car when i stopped, the old man said the battery was bad and his son had taken it to get it replaced.  I went home, pulled the 2 month old battery out of my blue GTS, put it in sedan and drove it the 15 miles home. No starting issues.  Did notice that the ALT idiot light was on until a speed of about 35mph was reached.  Over weekend i cleaned and tinkered and drove it 2 more times for short distances. Sunday morning a gave it a good bath.  When i went to drive it back into the garage, all i got was the solenoid coil clicking.  Charged battery, pulled alternator.  Alternator checked out good on Autozone tester.  Put charged battery and alternator back in and cannot even get a click.  I then put in a new voltage regulator.  No change.  I then pulled starter coil off of my blue GTS and put it in.  Still nothing.  I put coil and battery from non starting car in Blue GTS and she fires right up.  I honestly do not know where to look next.  New battery, good alternator, good coil, new voltage regulator and she ran fine 1/2 hour before nothing.  What am i missing?
Not that it matters, but it is a 302-2v car.

Thanks
Mike Yeager
1972 Gran Torino 4dr
1972 GTS sport roof
'13 Toyota Tundra TRD
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Power Surge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-October-2016 at 11:24AM
Before you do anything else....check your grounds! Just had the same issue with my Cougar. Had 12v at the battery, 12v at the end of the ground cable to the motor, but 3 volts at the block and to the rest of the car. The hole in the block that the bolt screws into was rusted away and the bolt was not making good contact. 

You could have a different issue, but start with the basics. 

And do you have a test meter?
Sal Mennella
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aquartlow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-October-2016 at 11:59AM
Pull the start wire off of the fender mounted starter solenoid, put test light probe in the plug in socket that goes to solenoid and ground the other end of the test light, Try starting the vehicle and see if the test light, lights up. If not, it could be a fusible link issue that provides power to the ignition switch/fuse panel or possibly an ignition switch issue(may just need an adjustment). If there is a battery drain(when key is off and no known load), try removing the (+) battery terminal and connect the clamp end of a test light to the (+) cable and the probe end to the battery (+) post, if there is a drain it will show as the light being lit. The brighter the light the more drain there is, if your radio has a memory it will show a momentary bright light then have a dim glow. I once had a battery drain that gave me fits, finally found the alternator had a bad diode internally causing a direct short. Hope this helps.    
www.supermotors.net/22468
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-October-2016 at 12:18PM
mike, yes it sounds like a bad connection somewhere! check grounds (also check the little ground wire to the fenderwell down by the frame...since the regulator and solenoid are bolted to the fenderwell ) and what todd said, both good suggestions Wink
JOHN
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Bird Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-October-2016 at 1:34PM
My inner fender rusted out behind the Duraspark box. The Duraspark box was getting wet on the backside. The yellow/orange "earwax" that was supposed to help seal the innards of the box melted out and the Duraspark box developed some kind of intermittent short. Random dead battery.
Now, I have a G.M. HEI module hidden inside the Duraspark box, and the inner fender has been patched.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-October-2016 at 3:47AM
all good suggestions to check, ++ on the test light between the battery neg cable & terminal
 
with the test light in place, is the light on?
 
remove each fuse one at a time & see if the test light goes out, working at the gas station way
back when I found a short in the dome light fixture that killed the battery 
 
I also had a bad aftermarket digital radio, the memory or clock went  Wacko
 
the Alt light could still be in play, alt's need to reach a certain rpm before things begin happening. still could be a bad alternator if the kick-in thing isn't kicking in or is intermittent, my 73 Formal car needed to wing the throttle before the alt would fire off, then i could hear the tell tale alt whine letting me know it was charging
 
try starting the car w/o revving the engine and check battery voltage.
 
(charging volts should be between 14.5 to near 15v, if not over 13 it's not charging or the regulator is gone) 
 
listen to the alternator, is it whining? rev the engine, does it fire off & start whining?
 
check voltage again after you hear the whine


Edited by Rockatansky - 14-October-2016 at 3:58AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-October-2016 at 4:16AM
Another simple way to check if it's charging at all... hold a screwdriver or wrench near the rear bearing of the alt. If it's charging it creates a magnetic field around the bearing
JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE
74 VETTE CUSTOM
90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED
77 CELICA CUSTOM
75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED
79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED
75 VEGA V6 5 SPD
70 CHEV C10 P/U
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-October-2016 at 7:24AM
I've been told that you can have the magnetic field but still not flow current back to the battery
 
IDK ... ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hoosiermike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-October-2016 at 8:44AM
Found it!!!!!!!!!!   Dead short in starter motor.  
Thanks to all for the replys and advice.  
Mike Yeager
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1972 GTS sport roof
'13 Toyota Tundra TRD
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-October-2016 at 11:16AM
ClapClapClap now how about some pics of the beast
JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE
74 VETTE CUSTOM
90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED
77 CELICA CUSTOM
75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED
79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hoosiermike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-October-2016 at 4:56AM
AGHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!  OK,  i am back to square 1 this morning.  I had to walk away before i started throwing tools.  To rehash.  Bought the car 2 weeks ago with no battery in car.  Dropped the 3 1/2 month old battery out of my other 72 in it and drove home.  Drove it short distances for the next 2 days with 0 issues (wasnt in my name yet so didnt take it far).  Two weeks ago tomorrow, i drove it into yard and gave it a good bath.  Got in it to move into the garage and battery dead,  would not even click starter.  I began swapping/ testing parts.  I have 2 new batteries that when i roll key forward to start position get knocked so dead they will not turn over my other torino.  This is an instant effect.  2 hours on the charger and both are fine again.  I put on new voltage regulator and fender mount starter coil from my other torino on her, no change.  (original coil is on my other torino and she is fine).  Pulled alternator, it tested good on autozones machine.  I then pulled starter and thought i had it.  Starter failed every test on Autozones machine.  locked up with a dead short.  They of course did not have a replacement so i ordered one in and just put a new reman starter on her this morning.  Same damn thing!  I then, with key off, ran a jumper cable lead from + post of battery to starter side of fender mounted coil. That should have rolled the motor if the problem was the ignition switch.  Fireworks show and clip tried to weld itself to coil stud. Not even a click out of the new starter bendix.  As an fyi,  with key rolled forward to 1 spot before "start"  ALT, Oil etc dash lights are on as they should be but once i hit start position battery is so dead that headlights will not even light.  I am too disgusted at the moment to pull the jacks and jackstands back out and pull the new starter to have it tested but it would surprise me if a new reman starter would be bad out of box.  I am at a loss.  Battery post clamps are good,  ground cable to block is good.  This is getting aggravating.  
 
Mike Yeager
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1972 GTS sport roof
'13 Toyota Tundra TRD
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aquartlow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-October-2016 at 7:06AM
OK, been there with the throwing of tools, I personally like the more expensive tools that break apart @ impact(drill guns, cordless tools-I always have a reason for new tool purchase Embarrassed). (1) Have the batteries load tested and/or retested. (2) MAKE ABSOLUTELY sure the new starter isn't for a manual trans, It will not turn over and it will act like a dead short due to binding. (3) Pick up the tools that were thrown Wink. Good luck!   

Edited by aquartlow - 22-October-2016 at 7:06AM
www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires.

No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t.

Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hoosiermike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-October-2016 at 7:19AM
ok, i have never heard the starter comment before.  Is there a way to tell by looking at the starter if it is for a manual or automatic?  Obviously it isnt the bolt pattern or you could not get it mounted.  The only visible difference between new and old was the coil wire connection.  Old one had a stud coming out of starter body.  New one had more of a pinch plate.  hmm,  now im going to have to crawl under my other torino and look.  And no tools thrown yet.  Thats why i walked away.  Big smile
Mike Yeager
1972 Gran Torino 4dr
1972 GTS sport roof
'13 Toyota Tundra TRD
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hoosiermike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-October-2016 at 7:40AM
And i am not sure about the batteries needing a load test.  I have been rotating them through my other Torino and it runs and starts fine. i.e.  When battery A gets zapped by white car, i pull battery B from blue car to continue experimentation and when charged, but A in blue car.  Blue car currently running on battery taken to its knees this morning.  But, when i get in a better mood, i will pull the new starter and take it along with both batteries into Autozone and have them all tested.
Mike Yeager
1972 Gran Torino 4dr
1972 GTS sport roof
'13 Toyota Tundra TRD
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aquartlow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-October-2016 at 7:40AM
I do not have any measurement specs, but here is a pic of each, hopefully you can quickly distinguish what the parts store "actually" sold you.
Automatic starter: Note the "knot" just below the starter drive actuator cover@ 12 0'clock.
Image of Duralast Starter : Part number DL3124
 
Manual starter;
Image of Duralast Starter : Part number DL3132
 
Hope this is helpful.
www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires.

No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t.

Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hoosiermike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-October-2016 at 7:57AM
Ok,  i am looking at pics and the only difference i see is the shape of the copper colored side cover.  is that what you are talking about?
Mike Yeager
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aquartlow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-October-2016 at 8:16AM
The auto starter has a longer nose than the manual does, that is what I was trying to relay, the "knot' would allow quick recognition of it being an automatic starter.
 Thinking about what I said earlier about the starter will show a dead short if a manual starter was installed instead of an auto, I was mistaken/had it "backerds". I had an '82 F250 4x4 with 351w and NP435 4 spd, I installed an auto starter(auto parts store gave me the wrong application) and that led to the dead short issue, not sure if installing a manual starter in place of auto would do the same thing or not. Sorry for the misinformation. The shorter depth of the manual start "should" just make an engagement issue or wouldn't hit the flexplate at all, but not entirely sure. So even trying to use jumper cables straight from a known good battery to the suspect starter has no effect other than seeing a dead short/shorted starter type issue?   

Edited by aquartlow - 22-October-2016 at 8:18AM
www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires.

No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t.

Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hoosiermike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-October-2016 at 8:31AM
Yes,  i took jumper cable lead (while wearing heavy gloves :)  )  from + on charged battery to the starter motor side of coil.  no clicking or anything out of new starter.  just buzzing sound from lead trying to weld itself to the terminal.  I will get my neighbor to help me push it into the garage then pull starter and take it and both batteries in for testing. 

Mike Yeager
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aquartlow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-October-2016 at 8:44AM
Have you tried turning the engine over with a breaker bar/socket, not sure what the harmonic bolt size is on a 302, 460 is 15/16". Just a thought.
www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires.

No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t.

Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-October-2016 at 2:16PM
the round ring that locates the starter in the block plate is also different auto / manual trans. one will fit in the other but not the other way, the one that will fit will be loose and can be not located properly, can chew gears from being loose or scream like it needs shims from being to close
 
I'd start inspecting all the wiring, cut the loom wrap off & get a good look at everything, also look for a ground somebody added to the positive side, there's got to be something very wrong
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hoosiermike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-October-2016 at 5:15PM
I will hopefully have time tomorrow to pull the reman starter and go into town to have it and both batteries tested.  If all good, and engine not locked up i guess i will start looking at every wire on car.  I will start in the heater box.  The old man i bought it from told me he had a new radiator and heater core put in last spring and the only thing electrically i found wrong on initial inspection was that the heater/ac blower would not come on with the switch.  Its a long shot, but, everything is at this point.  lol
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'13 Toyota Tundra TRD
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-October-2016 at 4:30AM
have you taken all the connections from the fender mounted solenoid and checked them for a serious short to ground?
 
maybe the solenoid itself is welded stuck inside?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hoosiermike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-October-2016 at 4:39AM
not the solenoid.  have rotated both on and off of my Blue Torino and it starts great with both.  

Mike Yeager
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'13 Toyota Tundra TRD
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-October-2016 at 6:40AM
so it's not the Alt, I doubt it's a new starter doing the same thing as an old starter and it's not the solenoid
 
all that's left is wiring & switches in the car ... voltage regulator?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hoosiermike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-October-2016 at 6:48AM
Not voltage regulator. Put on a new one when altinator tested good.
Mike Yeager
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hoosiermike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-October-2016 at 1:19PM
OK,  with the help of the neighbor i got her pushed out of the yard and into the garage where i have light and a concrete floor.  lol.  Also put breaker bar on the engine and she turns over fine.  So thankfully she is not locked up.  It is a 15/16 socket on a 302 btw.  :)  Now to load test batteries and test the "new" starter.  If all good i may just rewire the whole damn car.  lol

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-October-2016 at 2:04PM
i wonder if a power seat or window wire might be shorting under the carpet or in a kick panel or door?
 
also check the bellhousing to engine to see if any harness is pinched between them, and the air plenum box that was worked on by the PO
 
did we ever get back to what kind of radio is in it?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hoosiermike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-October-2016 at 2:27PM
No pwr windows or seats. At the moment, back to the starter. "New" remanufactured starter tested bad. So I'm waiting on another one. I am planning to install it Saturday morning and see where I am. And yes, I will have emtest the new one before I leave. lol
Mike Yeager
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-October-2016 at 10:05PM
but the wires may be there, possibly tapped into by a Previous Owner
 
you really gotta tear into it
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hoosiermike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-October-2016 at 6:09AM
Progress report of sorts.  Put a 3rd, verified starter on her early this morning.  Annnnd.   A single clunk sound when i hit the key and battery dead.  However, i am a step closer.  Now i have a good starter so i can roll the motor by running a jumper cable from battery pos to output post of solenoid.  For, fun (sarchasm)  I again changed out the solenoid just to make sure i had not cooked it with the 2nd bad starter.  Solenoid good.  Only thing left in that particular circuit is the ignition switch.  But still could be a short on something tied into the start circuit, intentional or otherwise.  going to ohm out the ignition switch,  if it acts like it should will pull apart heater box and dash and start tracing wires.  But,  its a gorgeous day in Southern Indiana so skipping the garage and spending the afternoon carving country roads with my other Torino.  Good stress relief.  :)
Mike Yeager
1972 Gran Torino 4dr
1972 GTS sport roof
'13 Toyota Tundra TRD
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