HELP! Distributior and Setup for my 351C-4V |
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6er
New Member Joined: 23-January-2020 Location: Gemany Status: Offline Points: 9 |
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Posted: 24-January-2020 at 6:42AM |
Hello, I've bought a GTS 1972 with a 351C-2V engine in Riverside. After 2 Years I got an engine damage. I'm looking for a good distributor and coil for this engine that fits and have enough to make a good setup. Also I need some experience from people who have such an engine or can help me to find the 300HP or more. Should I Change jets from carburator? My english is not very well, so try to write for a Baby Best wished from Germany André |
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72FordGTS
Admin Group GTS.org Admin Joined: 06-September-2005 Location: Ontario, Canada Status: Offline Points: 5848 |
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It sounds like you are getting way too much mechanical advance in your distributor. If you want to replace your distributor I would recommend looking at this one here:
I have one of these as with a coil from a 1995 Mustang 5.0L engine. It works great. I have about 16 degrees initial with 36 total all in before 3000. If you do decided to run this setup, I can send you a copy of my wiring diagram. If you want to build a cheaper system, you can use a GM HEI igntion module, a Ford Dura Spark distributor and the above coil. Look at this thread below and it has all kinds of details on that ignition and other options. Edited by 72FordGTS - 24-January-2020 at 11:28AM |
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Vince
1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car GTS.org Admin |
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californiajohnny
Moderator Group Joined: 05-October-2013 Location: winlock, wa Status: Offline Points: 14609 |
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will the tim meyer dist. clear his blue thunder intake??? i think he told me that an HEI wouldn't assuming it was a GM HEI dist?
sounds like too much advance to me too but rock would know best that's why i had him join here |
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JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE 74 VETTE CUSTOM 90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED 77 CELICA CUSTOM 75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED 79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED 75 VEGA V6 5 SPD 70 CHEV C10 P/U 68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION |
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californiajohnny
Moderator Group Joined: 05-October-2013 Location: winlock, wa Status: Offline Points: 14609 |
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looks like he's running mechanical advance only (no vacuum advance) and it's too much... if the idle is too high and static advance is way off this would cause the "dieseling" i'm sure
maybe see if his cam specs are good and not adding to the undrivability issues?? but looks fair to me but i'm not a cleveland expert rockatansky would know |
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JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE 74 VETTE CUSTOM 90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED 77 CELICA CUSTOM 75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED 79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED 75 VEGA V6 5 SPD 70 CHEV C10 P/U 68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION |
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Rockatansky
Senior Member Joined: 30-July-2010 Location: On The Road Status: Offline Points: 6072 |
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6er have the heads been set up specifically for the Lunati cam? .536/.562 lift will require valve springs and retainers compatible for extra valve lift over stock do you have a vacuum gauge, how much Hg does the engine pull from the intake manifold at idle? here's the Lunati page for your cam, |
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72 GT Ute
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californiajohnny
Moderator Group Joined: 05-October-2013 Location: winlock, wa Status: Offline Points: 14609 |
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yeah if you know what dist. will fit with that monster intake, he's needing to know so he can order one
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JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE 74 VETTE CUSTOM 90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED 77 CELICA CUSTOM 75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED 79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED 75 VEGA V6 5 SPD 70 CHEV C10 P/U 68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION |
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6er
New Member Joined: 23-January-2020 Location: Gemany Status: Offline Points: 9 |
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Good morning, in the 351-2V was a comp cam kit (K32-221-3). From this kit and other parts from the engine there are the springs (outer) and the crane rocker arm conversion kit. Also the rocker arms (1.72 - Summit Racing® Cast Steel Roller Tip Rocker Arms SUM-141709PL). I ask the dealer where I ordered the LUNATI CAM If I can use this parts or need new. He told me it is good and I will not feel the difference between 1.72 and 1.73, so I put all in the engine.
The Distributor must have same size as original. For the break-in I must cut my HEI to fit it Should I change any parts? |
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6er
New Member Joined: 23-January-2020 Location: Gemany Status: Offline Points: 9 |
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I only run mechanical advance, vacuum advance is not possible, ist too much at 3000
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californiajohnny
Moderator Group Joined: 05-October-2013 Location: winlock, wa Status: Offline Points: 14609 |
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i'll check in the morning i think i have a small cap dura spark dist. from a 74 351C 2V if you wanted to wire the GM 4 pin module like in the diagram with a separate coil?
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JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE 74 VETTE CUSTOM 90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED 77 CELICA CUSTOM 75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED 79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED 75 VEGA V6 5 SPD 70 CHEV C10 P/U 68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION |
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Rockatansky
Senior Member Joined: 30-July-2010 Location: On The Road Status: Offline Points: 6072 |
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i one of my fears is that the new coil i see in the pics is not compatible and is issues. a wrong type of coil will idle but not rpm. 6er do you have an old stock Ford coil to try? so you need a dizzy, the Ready To Run unit from Tim Meyer solves a lot of install issues and finishes very neatly with no visible wiring. it can be used with either a stock Ford small cap or the 2 piece Duraspark adapter and large diameter cap. i thing the adapter will raise the cap up high enough to clear the BlueThunder but i'm not positive. George Pence would know for sure or someone that has tried / is using the combination. personally i'd use the small cap for the stock period correct look and air filter housing clearance. other options are > a small diameter MSD (Many Suddenly Die) > a small diameter Pertronix distributor > the stock housing with a Pertronix module installed > retro fit a Duraspark but be aware the 1972 wiring harness is set up for points, not the 2 wire supply feed that the Duraspark box uses > Mallory Unilite, HyFire box and Mallory coil, one of my favorites but the new dizzy's come mechanical adv only > Mallory 502M Unilite conversion kit in a stock points housing > stock Duraspark and an I.C.E. ignition control box www.iceignition.com ; > stock Duraspark and a Pantera Electronics control box https://www.pantera-electronics.com/eis.htm regarding the Hg at idle, it shows about 9.5 and is the needle steady or bouncing like a bunny rabbit? regarding the cam lift and the heads being set up properly, my worry is not the rockers and hardware but the springs and retainers being able to allow the added lift over stock that the Lunati cam brings. you can't just slide a performance cam in and magic happens, the springs need to be checked for bind clearance at max lift or there will be trouble. i looked up the previous Comp cam that cam in the 4V, it's a 268H, this cam CAN slide in with no special parts or checking so there's no indication that anything has been done to the original stock heads to provide for additional lift over stock. was the Comp 268H cam bad, why was it removed? i would've left the 4V engine in as-is running condition so as not to compile a laundry list of what-if's. then after the engine is running as it should, then start doing changes. i'm not understanding why the vacuum advance would be adding too much timing unless the connection is being made to Direct Intake Vacuum? there is a way to use DIV (and it works better than ported or timed vacuum) but the vacuum pot has to be adjustable and set up properly to work off DIV. no distributors come set up for DIV and will over advance insanely. there is no issue with starting out using only mechanical advance to simplify the process, maybe sometime later the vacuum system can be figured out and implemented. Edited by Rockatansky - 25-January-2020 at 1:17PM |
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72 GT Ute
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72FordGTS
Admin Group GTS.org Admin Joined: 06-September-2005 Location: Ontario, Canada Status: Offline Points: 5848 |
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I talked to Tim Meyer about the RTR distributor when I was getting mine. He said the module will not fit in the cap with the small diameter cap. So the large cap is required for the RTR distibutor. It is still considerably smaller than a GM HEI, with a same size base as a stock distributor, just a larger cap. If you contact TMeyer Inc, they may know if the RTR Track Boss distributor will clear the Blue Thunder intake.
Todd, Aquartlow, built an excellent Duraspark distributor with a external GM HEI module. It is really pretty much the same as a RTR distributor, except the HEI module is mounted outside the cap. All the details on that build are in the thread I posted above. With this setup you could use the smaller Duraspark cap if clearance is an issue. Here are some pics and wiring diagrams on a home built Dura Spark with HEI module: |
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Vince
1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car GTS.org Admin |
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6er
New Member Joined: 23-January-2020 Location: Gemany Status: Offline Points: 9 |
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@californiajonny
If it works fine for my engine, why not? @Rockatansky I think I've a old coil to test it. The vacuum is steady, it will be little more if more engine speed. I can test it again if you need some more Infos - tell me what rpms?! The cam was from my 2V and don't work for 4V told me comp cam. What parts should I buy to make the Hardware correct. The cam was installed because the engine was incomplete as I bought it. Cam, water pump and rest of the front were missing. And the cam dealer told me I should install also a performance intake If I use this cam. First I want to order an edelbrock in USA but ist too heavy and too expensive, around 600euro. I've searched 1/2 year in Germany, then I found the blue thunder and bought it because many wrote good coments about it. The Distributor is trash, at the hei I could adjust the vaccum with a little allen wrench, but at this Distributor nothing changes if I use an allen wrench. So what should we do first?
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californiajohnny
Moderator Group Joined: 05-October-2013 Location: winlock, wa Status: Offline Points: 14609 |
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i'm wondering if the cam is causing the low vacuum? is it degreed at 0 TDC? retarding or advancing the cam timing at the chain can affect things. just a thought! i'm thinking you have a mis-match of parts going on there?
that dist. i have dint have spark in that engine but the module on the fender was nasty corroded so i suspected it was bad i pulled the dist from the motor a few months ago and dropped in the messed up points one from the 4v with a screw to hold the breaker plate enough to fire the engine as a test so idk if its good i think the electronic dist is, just the module was bad which is common but if the TMEYER dist will work it should fit with the cap-a-dapt cap like todd's i'd think since it widens above the intake unlike the GM HEI which is wide at the base... IDK what do you guys think on all this? |
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JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE 74 VETTE CUSTOM 90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED 77 CELICA CUSTOM 75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED 79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED 75 VEGA V6 5 SPD 70 CHEV C10 P/U 68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION |
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Rockatansky
Senior Member Joined: 30-July-2010 Location: On The Road Status: Offline Points: 6072 |
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Yes absolutely that Lunati cam has no love for vacuum, i wish they gave the seat to seat overlap
"Hydraulic Flat Tappet. Good cam for improved mid range torque and HP
over stock. Needs 2000-2500 RPM stall converter, headers, 9:1+ compression ratio and 3.73 gearing. Fair idle. Advertised Duration: 290/300 ; Duration @ .050 (Int/Exh): 224/234 Gross Valve
Lift (Int/Exh): .536/.562 LSA/ICL: 112 RPM Range: 2000-6000 notice
the Lobe Separation Angle and the Intake Center Line are the same at
112*, there is no advance ground into the cam, this cam has true
'straight up' timing. if it doesn't get degreed to spec, and possibly installed
retarded, low end response, efficiency and vacuum will suffer more. it
can be installed advanced with properly checking for piston to valve
clearance, there 99% won't be any issue but if it doesn't get checked
and things go bad there will be no joy in Mudville |
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72 GT Ute
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6er
New Member Joined: 23-January-2020 Location: Gemany Status: Offline Points: 9 |
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Hello,OK I understand. But I think we could it test it in the current situation. Please tell what Hardware (springs and...) I should buy and install that the Hardware is correct for the cam.
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Rockatansky
Senior Member Joined: 30-July-2010 Location: On The Road Status: Offline Points: 6072 |
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the thing is what you have there needs to be checked and evaluated for compatibility. your engine was born at least 45 years ago, anything may have been done in that time. if the spring seats have been cut for dual springs that needs to be identified before selecting a spring, and the retainers are specific to the spring OD and ID also. retainer locks are specific to the valve stem diameter, retainer lock angle and groove type. way too much to guess from this side of the planet! there's a ~possibility~ that your springs are OK but my $2 are against it.
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72 GT Ute
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Rockatansky
Senior Member Joined: 30-July-2010 Location: On The Road Status: Offline Points: 6072 |
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72 GT Ute
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6er
New Member Joined: 23-January-2020 Location: Gemany Status: Offline Points: 9 |
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Good morning, I'm still having trouble finding a distributor. I have now measured my place and need information from users with details of their distribution whether the masses fit. Unfortunately I cannot find this data on the Internet. If the distributor has a maximum diameter of 100mm, the height between the clamp and the lower edge is irrelevant. If it is larger in diameter, the distance must be at least 130mm as in the picture. Which distributor is this Dimension? Only one I can found with Details is one from summit racing: 6er |
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Big Bird
Senior Member Joined: 25-August-2013 Location: New York Status: Offline Points: 4194 |
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Look for a factory duraspark distributor for 351M/400 engines. |
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"What we do in full frontal view, is more honest than your cleaned-up mind."
Randy 1979 T-Bird 2005 F-150 STX RCSB 4.6, 3.55 LSD How the Heck does a REGULAR CAB SHORTBED weigh over 5200 pounds? |
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californiajohnny
Moderator Group Joined: 05-October-2013 Location: winlock, wa Status: Offline Points: 14609 |
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JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE 74 VETTE CUSTOM 90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED 77 CELICA CUSTOM 75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED 79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED 75 VEGA V6 5 SPD 70 CHEV C10 P/U 68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION |
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californiajohnny
Moderator Group Joined: 05-October-2013 Location: winlock, wa Status: Offline Points: 14609 |
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oh BTW your seat belt cover arrived the other day
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JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE 74 VETTE CUSTOM 90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED 77 CELICA CUSTOM 75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED 79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED 75 VEGA V6 5 SPD 70 CHEV C10 P/U 68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION |
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72FordGTS
Admin Group GTS.org Admin Joined: 06-September-2005 Location: Ontario, Canada Status: Offline Points: 5848 |
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Yes, this is the easiest solution. These distributors are the same size as the points distributors, only the cap is larger. You can get John's used but here are lots available here new: If you get a Duraspark distributor and the large cap doesn't fit, just switch to the small cap and you're done! Then get a GM HEI module and wire it up like I posted above. Simple, easy cheap ignition with all easy to find parts. |
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Vince
1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car GTS.org Admin |
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Rockatansky
Senior Member Joined: 30-July-2010 Location: On The Road Status: Offline Points: 6072 |
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any Duraspark housing can use the small cap there is also a male terminal small cap to use HEI style leads, only issue i've heard is the clip pockets can be a little tight Standard Motor Products AL482 |
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72 GT Ute
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6er
New Member Joined: 23-January-2020 Location: Gemany Status: Offline Points: 9 |
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Can I adjust vaccum at the duraspark? @John do you have with male terminal?
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californiajohnny
Moderator Group Joined: 05-October-2013 Location: winlock, wa Status: Offline Points: 14609 |
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i'd have to look? i just swapped distributors to fire it up the caps interchanged
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JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE 74 VETTE CUSTOM 90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED 77 CELICA CUSTOM 75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED 79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED 75 VEGA V6 5 SPD 70 CHEV C10 P/U 68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION |
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72FordGTS
Admin Group GTS.org Admin Joined: 06-September-2005 Location: Ontario, Canada Status: Offline Points: 5848 |
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Yes, their is vacuum advance on a duraspark distributor and the vaccum cannister is adjustable.
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Vince
1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car GTS.org Admin |
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californiajohnny
Moderator Group Joined: 05-October-2013 Location: winlock, wa Status: Offline Points: 14609 |
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the factory electronic one i have is just under 4" (100mm)dia its nice and tight so i think it was replaced at some time and it has a 12127 motorcraft number cast on it it came out of the 351C 2v it had the older style terminal cap but you can get the small male terminal cap hei that fits like rock posted i'll send you pics on messenger...
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JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE 74 VETTE CUSTOM 90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED 77 CELICA CUSTOM 75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED 79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED 75 VEGA V6 5 SPD 70 CHEV C10 P/U 68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION |
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Rockatansky
Senior Member Joined: 30-July-2010 Location: On The Road Status: Offline Points: 6072 |
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the factory vacuum profile in any Duraspark unit should work as-is if connected to the correct vacuum source direct manifold vacuum from below the throttle blades would not be correct, 'timed spark' or ported vacuum is where you want to connect
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72 GT Ute
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californiajohnny
Moderator Group Joined: 05-October-2013 Location: winlock, wa Status: Offline Points: 14609 |
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JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE 74 VETTE CUSTOM 90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED 77 CELICA CUSTOM 75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED 79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED 75 VEGA V6 5 SPD 70 CHEV C10 P/U 68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION |
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