Carburetor changeover |
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ml7burbank
New Member Joined: 07-July-2019 Location: Buffalo, NY Status: Offline Points: 17 |
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Posted: 24-July-2020 at 3:14AM |
Hello. I could use some advice.
I have a '71 Torino GT convertible with 351, 2V. I've had several carburetor issues which were not resolved with a rebuild. My mechanic has advised me to replace existing carburetor with a Holley 2 barrel, 350 CFM, manual choke model. Could I possibly upgrade to a 4 barrel with new intake manifold without too much hassle? Thank you for any input you may have.
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Mike L.
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Big Bird
Senior Member Joined: 25-August-2013 Location: New York Status: Offline Points: 4194 |
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Don't see any issues that can't be fixed on a Ford 2 Bbl. A drunken squirrel could rebuild one while sniffing model airplane glue and it would work fine. That being said, you can get a 4v intake for a 351c 2v engine. Make sure that you get one for 2v heads, as the intake ports are different/smaller.
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"What we do in full frontal view, is more honest than your cleaned-up mind."
Randy 1979 T-Bird 2005 F-150 STX RCSB 4.6, 3.55 LSD How the Heck does a REGULAR CAB SHORTBED weigh over 5200 pounds? |
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ml7burbank
New Member Joined: 07-July-2019 Location: Buffalo, NY Status: Offline Points: 17 |
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Thanks for the info! (My mechanic is really good but a young guy....apparently doesn't see a lot of carburetor work).
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Mike L.
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Rockatansky
Senior Member Joined: 30-July-2010 Location: On The Road Status: Offline Points: 6059 |
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pull the carb back off and check the gasket under the EGR plate. good chance this gaskets was the issue from the start and never addressed and removing the carb further disturbed it. that gasket under the EGR plate is not a carb gasket, it's an exhaust gasket! it has to be exhaust rated or it'll burn through in short time.
examine the EGR plate carefully, they're known for clogging up and burning through, causing a vacuum leak. a failure of the EGR gasket or the plate would give the same symptoms as a 'carb issue'. are you ready to spend $500-700 or more to swap up to a 4bbl, and open up a new can of 'issues' in the process? |
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72 GT Ute
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ml7burbank
New Member Joined: 07-July-2019 Location: Buffalo, NY Status: Offline Points: 17 |
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Thank you! Sounds like great advice. I'm meeting up with my mechanic this weekend and will pass along your suggestion....keep you posted.
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Mike L.
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Rockatansky
Senior Member Joined: 30-July-2010 Location: On The Road Status: Offline Points: 6059 |
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and do a deep dive inspection of all vacuum hoses
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72 GT Ute
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californiajohnny
Moderator Group Joined: 05-October-2013 Location: winlock, wa Status: Offline Points: 14606 |
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did the 71's have an EGR ?? but if it has the aluminum plate under the carb check it for any blow though spots and any vacuum leaks!
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JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE 74 VETTE CUSTOM 90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED 77 CELICA CUSTOM 75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED 79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED 75 VEGA V6 5 SPD 70 CHEV C10 P/U 68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION |
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Rivercrest
Member Joined: 07-December-2019 Location: Manitoba Canada Status: Offline Points: 175 |
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John, within this old post you mention the aluminum plate directly under the carb on a 71. Starting at the top it goes carb/gasket/aluminum plate...is there supposed to be a gasket or some type of sealant between the aluminum plate and the intake manifold ? Is the aluminum plate a requirement ? This question is a part of my chasing down of a manifold leak on my previous post.
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Bob
1974 Cougar XR7 with a 72 351C |
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Big Bird
Senior Member Joined: 25-August-2013 Location: New York Status: Offline Points: 4194 |
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Gaskets between each part. Leaving one out will make a vacuum leak.
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"What we do in full frontal view, is more honest than your cleaned-up mind."
Randy 1979 T-Bird 2005 F-150 STX RCSB 4.6, 3.55 LSD How the Heck does a REGULAR CAB SHORTBED weigh over 5200 pounds? |
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Rivercrest
Member Joined: 07-December-2019 Location: Manitoba Canada Status: Offline Points: 175 |
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And thats why I bought two gaskets.....LOL Thanks
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Bob
1974 Cougar XR7 with a 72 351C |
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Rivercrest
Member Joined: 07-December-2019 Location: Manitoba Canada Status: Offline Points: 175 |
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Another question, the motor I am working with is a 1971 351C 2bbl. I am working with the original carb and I think it is boiling the fuel in the carb bowl. Car runs almost perfect in the shop, take it out for a 5 mile run and upon return the carb is leaking at the base and very hard to start unless you open the throttle right up and crank it many, many times. I have yet to check the float level. Is there supposed to be a spacer between the carb and intake ( but not a EGR spacer ). I have a 3/8 inch spacer in my pile of used parts and maybe I should put it on ? Currently there is a paper thin metal spacer but I am thinking maybe the correct spacer is missing. IF I ad the 3/8 spacer the length of the mounting studs will be a challenge but will work with no threads to spare....Advice please .....
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Bob
1974 Cougar XR7 with a 72 351C |
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72 RS 351
Senior Member Joined: 04-September-2014 Location: Knoxville TN Status: Offline Points: 2765 |
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Most fuel airing issues are from the lines getting too hot, as they route along the engine to the carb. The carburetor isn't really a problem for that. But definitely be sure there are gaskets between each layer, and any spacer can help with that cooling.
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Don
73 Ranchero "Sport 72 front end", floor shift/console, planning EFI 7000+ rpm 351-4V &4R70W 73 Ranchero GT 351C-4V &4R70W for sale later. 92 Lincoln Mark VII SE GTC, OBDII 347/4R70W |
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Rockatansky
Senior Member Joined: 30-July-2010 Location: On The Road Status: Offline Points: 6059 |
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the gasket between the manifold and the EGR spacer should be exhaust rated if you want it to last, not just a regular carb gasket
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72 GT Ute
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Rivercrest
Member Joined: 07-December-2019 Location: Manitoba Canada Status: Offline Points: 175 |
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Thanks, all advice is appreciated........ I did install a fuel pressure regulator that is close to the passenger side valve cover, also near the heater hose lines. That plus I expect a certain amount of fuel is sitting in the body of the regulator ( back pressure ) and just heating up before moving on to the carb. I guess changes will have to be made.
Edited by Rivercrest - 16-October-2020 at 4:04PM |
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Bob
1974 Cougar XR7 with a 72 351C |
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californiajohnny
Moderator Group Joined: 05-October-2013 Location: winlock, wa Status: Offline Points: 14606 |
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heated lines will mostly cause a vapor lock, but i have solid plastic phenolic spacers on many of my cars that really reduces the boilover effect! or heat soak if you will.and if you have a holley or edelbock square bore carb they can be bought from several suppliers on ebay for $10- 15 with gaskets and studs included
if you have the 4300 spreadbore cleveland carb i'm sure rock has a handy link to one to fit that |
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JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE 74 VETTE CUSTOM 90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED 77 CELICA CUSTOM 75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED 79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED 75 VEGA V6 5 SPD 70 CHEV C10 P/U 68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION |
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californiajohnny
Moderator Group Joined: 05-October-2013 Location: winlock, wa Status: Offline Points: 14606 |
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my bad i skipped over reading that you had a 2bbl, im sure they are available for them too?...
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JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE 74 VETTE CUSTOM 90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED 77 CELICA CUSTOM 75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED 79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED 75 VEGA V6 5 SPD 70 CHEV C10 P/U 68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION |
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72FordGTS
Admin Group GTS.org Admin Joined: 06-September-2005 Location: Ontario, Canada Status: Offline Points: 5802 |
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Vince
1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car GTS.org Admin |
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Rivercrest
Member Joined: 07-December-2019 Location: Manitoba Canada Status: Offline Points: 175 |
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In my walker carb repair kit ( 15593D ) it came with a 3/8 inch spacer that looks promising, but I don't know if it is compatible with manifold heat, and box came without any instructions. I also have two regular gaskets that I bought local. Also on my work bench is the 1/8 inch aluminum plate that came factory with the 71 Cleveland engine 2bbl. Now the question is what parts do I use (or not) and what is the proper order of assembly. On a side note, today I completely relocated the fuel pressure regulator to just above the power steering pump, plenty of air flow going on there I hope. THANKS for any advice given.
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Bob
1974 Cougar XR7 with a 72 351C |
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Rockatansky
Senior Member Joined: 30-July-2010 Location: On The Road Status: Offline Points: 6059 |
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the thick insulator gaskets are good for directly under the carb, rut again i wouldn't press one of those into service between the manifold and EGR spacer. Rock-auto (pun intended) is a great reference resource even if you're going to buy local. i have an extremely time using some of the discount chain websites sometimes to the point of giving up. now i just notice up above you're working on a 1971 351C-2V, is there an EGR spacer plate present on this engine? R/A does not show the EGR to manifold gasket for a 1971 but i believe some did use them. they do show the gasket for 1975 though. STANDARD MOTOR PRODUCTS VG206 contains 3 gaskets, 1 is the exhaust rated gasket i'm stuck on LOL. there's another brand listed that i'd pass on, the gasket looks to be of light duty material. IMO a classic case of you get what you pay for, $0.44. these are found under the sub-header 'EGR Valve Spacer Plate Gasket' which in turn is under 'Exhaust & Emissions' https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/ford,1975,gran+torino,5.8l+351cid+v8,1129531,exhaust+&+emission what is this 1/8" aluminum plate? does the intake manifold have a functional carb heat passage drilled through in a 'worm channel' in the carb pad beside the throttle bores, but no EGR plate? is this 1971 351C-2V in your 74 Cougar or something else?
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72 GT Ute
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72FordGTS
Admin Group GTS.org Admin Joined: 06-September-2005 Location: Ontario, Canada Status: Offline Points: 5802 |
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EGR didn't come in until 1973.
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Vince
1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car GTS.org Admin |
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Rivercrest
Member Joined: 07-December-2019 Location: Manitoba Canada Status: Offline Points: 175 |
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Quote : what is this 1/8" aluminum plate? does the intake manifold have a functional carb heat passage drilled through
in a 'worm channel' in the carb pad beside the throttle bores, but no EGR plate? is this 1971 351C-2V in your 74 Cougar or something else? Yes, this motor (1971) is in my '74 Cougar.....The thin metal plate is over top of the worm channel. There was a thin gasket between this plate and the manifold but after 49 years it has burnt away. Go figger. Then there was a fabric gasket and then the carb. I have limitations for remounting the carb considering the length of the studs but I could put in the spacer I have which came with the walker carb rebuild kit. No picture of this gasket on their instructional website. No EGR vaive on this puppy. I want to do the best I can the first time. |
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Bob
1974 Cougar XR7 with a 72 351C |
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72 RS 351
Senior Member Joined: 04-September-2014 Location: Knoxville TN Status: Offline Points: 2765 |
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If that thin AL plate is just sealing the intake surface, and the minimal thermal barrier, you can skip the gasket and use just a thin film of RTV, Ultra black or copper etc. Those can seal any two surfaces well and not be affected by heat or most chemicals. Can you post a picture of the intake and carb surfaces being mated/sealed together? |
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Don
73 Ranchero "Sport 72 front end", floor shift/console, planning EFI 7000+ rpm 351-4V &4R70W 73 Ranchero GT 351C-4V &4R70W for sale later. 92 Lincoln Mark VII SE GTC, OBDII 347/4R70W |
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Rivercrest
Member Joined: 07-December-2019 Location: Manitoba Canada Status: Offline Points: 175 |
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So here are some pics, taking VOTES now on which parts to use, including RTV sealant only as an option...........note the gasket material that was on the manifold side of the aluminum plate. Note: manifold has been cleaned up today.
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Bob
1974 Cougar XR7 with a 72 351C |
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Rivercrest
Member Joined: 07-December-2019 Location: Manitoba Canada Status: Offline Points: 175 |
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Is that what u call a worm channel and what good is it ?
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Bob
1974 Cougar XR7 with a 72 351C |
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Rivercrest
Member Joined: 07-December-2019 Location: Manitoba Canada Status: Offline Points: 175 |
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As I continue on with trying to correct a small vacuum leak, I also had the issue of car won't start easily when recently shut off. Reading previous posts I decided to remove the carb as I noticed vapor(s) coming out of the carb horn area. I could see gas seeping into the carb with an inspection mirror and a flashlight. Long story short, I pretty much determined the gas in the bowl was slowly dropping when the car was off. ( Lid removed.) This afternoon I rebuilt the carb, all new parts, and the vapor issue/hard starting when warm problem is now gone. Also my vacuum has gone up a couple of inches. I am pretty convinced the accelerator pump check valve was leaking......time will tell. Just some information for everyone of the forum. FOOTNOTE: I also decided to reinstall the metal plate I talked about earlier, using some RTV, thanks for that advice, and put the new (carb kit supplied) fabric gasket between the metal plate and the base of the carb, hope it stays leak free.
Edited by Rivercrest - 18-October-2020 at 2:12PM |
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Bob
1974 Cougar XR7 with a 72 351C |
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Rivercrest
Member Joined: 07-December-2019 Location: Manitoba Canada Status: Offline Points: 175 |
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Four hours later I went out and started the car, it fired right up and idled smooth.....tomorrow will be another test. Probably skip the road test-snow has fallen here tonight.
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Bob
1974 Cougar XR7 with a 72 351C |
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72 RS 351
Senior Member Joined: 04-September-2014 Location: Knoxville TN Status: Offline Points: 2765 |
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Excellent, glad to hear good news sometimes.
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Don
73 Ranchero "Sport 72 front end", floor shift/console, planning EFI 7000+ rpm 351-4V &4R70W 73 Ranchero GT 351C-4V &4R70W for sale later. 92 Lincoln Mark VII SE GTC, OBDII 347/4R70W |
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danzafra
New Member Joined: 10-February-2022 Location: California Status: Offline Points: 4 |
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Hello All, I am just new to this forum and helping a friend overseas with his rebuild of a 70 Torino GTS. Several questions were thrown at me and hope I can find answers.
The existing Ford 351 v8 engine has
a 2barrel carbuerator, Can we upgrade to 4-barrel type Carbuerator? - Do we need to change the Exhaust
Manifold too? |
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Inkara1
Senior Member Joined: 17-November-2021 Location: Ridgecrest, CA Status: Offline Points: 274 |
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You can put on a 4-barrel carburetor but you would need to change the intake manifold too.
Once the 4-barrel is on, it'll run with the current exhaust manifolds. You can get some more power if you change the manifolds out for headers, of course. But if it has a 2-barrel carb now and there's only money to do one upgrade, do the 4-barrel carb and intake.
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1972 Gran Torino station wagon, light blue, 351C 2V, prior owner upgraded to 4V (2V heads), originally had a C4 but prior owner changed to C6 for some reason.
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Rockatansky
Senior Member Joined: 30-July-2010 Location: On The Road Status: Offline Points: 6059 |
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do you know which 351 engine you're working with? there are 3, 351C, 351W and 351M and they all use a different intake manifold. most likely a 70 Torino came with a 351C but maybe not, and it may have been swapped for another since new after all these 50+ years. to confuse matters Ford used the same 'H' code for the 5th digit of the VIN to denote which engine the car has for both the 351C and 351W, and actually the 351M in later years ... just to make things
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72 GT Ute
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