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Road / Track Suspension Discussion

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Rockatansky View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-January-2017 at 4:16AM
is it the front end 'doghouse' sheet metal creating a parachute, would venting the pocket help?
72 GT Ute
   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-January-2017 at 7:45AM
Originally posted by Rockatansky Rockatansky wrote:

is it the front end 'doghouse' sheet metal creating a parachute, would venting the pocket help?
hmm, interesting theory....
JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE
74 VETTE CUSTOM
90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED
77 CELICA CUSTOM
75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED
79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Power Surge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-January-2017 at 1:21PM
Originally posted by BackInBlack BackInBlack wrote:


Would like to hear more about your Coyote/Ranchero project.   Others in the forum looked into using the Coyote but abandoned the project due to the level of work and modifications.   Do you have a project thread?

Yeah man, the build thread is here...


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75 Cougar XR7
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Past Torinos - 72 Gran Torino, 75 Gran Torino, 75 Elite
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-January-2017 at 5:18PM
if i'm understanding this correctly... so more negative caster is better?

 the issue i'm having on my car is at about 50-60 MPH the steering is too quick! a little twitchy, just the slightest turn of the wheel and it wants to turn too quick IMO, i am used to it but none of my other cars do this! i remember seeing on here somewhere talk about the pump pressure being too much and maybe causes this?
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74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE
74 VETTE CUSTOM
90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED
77 CELICA CUSTOM
75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED
79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED
75 VEGA V6 5 SPD
70 CHEV C10 P/U
68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Bird Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-January-2017 at 11:41PM
If you raise the back and lower the front, these get squirrelly because you don't have enough adjustment available to fix the caster. (with factory parts)
"What we do in full frontal view, is more honest than your cleaned-up mind."
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How the Heck does a REGULAR CAB SHORTBED weigh over 5200 pounds?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-January-2017 at 12:10PM
Originally posted by BackInBlack BackInBlack wrote:

.   I think the Torino was limited to around 3 degree max and typical was on the order of 1.5 to 2.   I dont have it written down so my memory may be failing me.   I just remember if you wanted more caster you essentially would run out of adjustment range.   
 
The 72-73 Cars had caster settings in these ranges, but the later cars increased the caster quite a bit.  I have the old Torino Handling book and he had some alignment recommendations in his book which were basically maxing out the caster.  IIRC it is somewhere around 5 degrees of Caster.  I know when I aligned my front end, I put in more front caster than the stock.  The only issue with too much caster is that the front wheel gets pushed back further in the wheel well.  This may cause clearance issues with big wheels, especially if you go beyond 5 degrees by maxing out the factory slots and using the tubular control arms with caster built into them.
 
As for the aero on these cars, there is definitely some significant front end lift at high speeds.  A bit of rake may help with that.  Venting the air from the engine compartment would probably make a big difference.  This is what some more modern hi-po cars do.  But these cars have terrible aero regardless.  That said, I find my car is very stable at high speeds, and with my new suspension setup it seems like the front end doesn't lift as much as it did with the stock setup.  My car feels just as stable if not more so compared to a CVPI at 100+ MPH.  But I haven't really done much other than drive in a straight light at speeds of over 100 MPH.
 
Check out the old NASCAR Torino's and it looks like they have a rake on the car, a chin spoiler and it looks like they grille is restricted.  It looks like the rear of the hood might even be elevated to exhaust the air from the engine compartment.  I am sure that these things made a big difference at high speeds.
 
Vince

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BackInBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-January-2017 at 1:03PM
Love that pic...to cool
Those new A-arms have +4 degrees so I think I'm good for street with that.  

I also plan on trying to fix some of the aero dynamics.  I found a couple air damns from other cars that I thick will fit and mount under my 73 bumper.  I was thinking about the air caught in the hood and the front nose and what changes I would make to improve that.  

Not sure if a rear fin is really needed...but definitely for low speeds the air damn would be worth it

I'm not trying to go 180+ ...just thinking about <120mph and the simple modifications that could be made to improve it.

Notice how that grill in the pic looks partially blocked off and the one headlight appears to be cold air ducted to the carb.  The rear of the hood looks lifted a bit to let air out..hard to tell

-John


Edited by BackInBlack - 17-January-2017 at 1:06PM
-John
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stanman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-January-2017 at 2:21PM
Nice fire resistant bowling shirts. ...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BackInBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-January-2017 at 3:39PM
LOL...Big Lebowski style.
I think the guy on the right is "the dude".
-John
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Bird Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-January-2017 at 9:37AM
"The Dude abides..."
"What we do in full frontal view, is more honest than your cleaned-up mind."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SPLUHAR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-January-2017 at 9:51AM
Originally posted by californiajohnny californiajohnny wrote:

if i'm understanding this correctly... so more negative caster is better?
 
More negative camber is good (half of a degree is what I run), more positive caster is good. 
 
Negative camber is leaning the top of the tire in, towards the center of the car. 
 
Positive caster is leaning the spindle back towards the back of the car.  
 
Positive caster adds some negative camber on the outside tire and positive camber on the inside tire as you steer (both beneficial), and it adds some "wedge" to the car, because the outside tire actually goes up some and the inside tire goes down some (again, beneficial). 
 
I've heard or over 10 degrees on Mercedes Benz, for example.
 
1976 ELITE, 71 429 w/cam, quadrajet, 4 wheel Mark V disc brakes, 3.25 trac lok, gutted & 12.9'd Mustang steering box
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SPLUHAR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-January-2017 at 10:02AM
Originally posted by californiajohnny californiajohnny wrote:

Originally posted by Rockatansky Rockatansky wrote:

is it the front end 'doghouse' sheet metal creating a parachute, would venting the pocket help?
hmm, interesting theory....
 
 
If you breeze through this thread, a lot of aero work was done to this Mustang, and some suspension work, and the biggest, stickiest tires that would fit.  The car was regularly the fastest car on the track in it's time trial class.  It was also his wife's commuter car.  In post 876, they vent the hood, btw.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BackInBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-January-2017 at 10:08AM
As a data point (right or wrong); I was targeting the following

OEM stock toe in setup = 1/8?
Caster = +4 degrees (expect to adjust it +/- 2 degrees)
Camber= initial setting zero?  maybe a little negative.  I'm not sure.  Could use some help here.  Camber gain I'm planning to set some where between 0.8 deg/in to 1 deg/in max depending on the available wheel travel after lowering.  

Its all still in planning stages.  Would be helpful if someone has any experience with this to help with a setup for street and autocross.   I dont mind some extra tire wear but not to crazy.  Its still a fun street driver for me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-January-2017 at 12:07PM
Originally posted by SPLUHAR SPLUHAR wrote:

Originally posted by californiajohnny californiajohnny wrote:

if i'm understanding this correctly... so more negative caster is better?
 
 more positive caster is good. 
 

Positive caster is leaning the spindle back towards the back of the car.  
 

 
so the top of the spindle leaning back is "positive" caster???? ( i thought that was negative caster)
 my specs after the alignment is... LF -0.9* RF -1.3* total caster -1.0* specified range 0.0--4.0* so this may be the problem then? i can't remember if i slotted the holes out while the a-arms were off for bushings??? i'll have to check...hmm
JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE
74 VETTE CUSTOM
90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED
77 CELICA CUSTOM
75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED
79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BackInBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-January-2017 at 12:49PM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-January-2017 at 1:05PM
thanks, yeah i saw a diagram like that a while ago, could have sworn the caster was the opposite ( not like repair manuals aren't full of misinformation right?!) this does make sense now about the quick feeling at cruising speeds Confused
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74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE
74 VETTE CUSTOM
90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED
77 CELICA CUSTOM
75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED
79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED
75 VEGA V6 5 SPD
70 CHEV C10 P/U
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Power Surge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-January-2017 at 3:14PM
Originally posted by californiajohnny californiajohnny wrote:

Originally posted by SPLUHAR SPLUHAR wrote:

Originally posted by californiajohnny californiajohnny wrote:

if i'm understanding this correctly... so more negative caster is better?
 
 more positive caster is good. 
 

Positive caster is leaning the spindle back towards the back of the car.  
 

 
so the top of the spindle leaning back is "positive" caster???? ( i thought that was negative caster)
 my specs after the alignment is... LF -0.9* RF -1.3* total caster -1.0* specified range 0.0--4.0* so this may be the problem then? i can't remember if i slotted the holes out while the a-arms were off for bushings??? i'll have to check...hmm

As I mentioned previously, more caster is more stability at speed, and less caster is more responsive low speed turning. So negative caster will make for some pretty squirrely driving on the highway. 

I don't know why....but in my years of doing alignments I have noticed that many 60s and 70s Fords have negative caster as spec. Were they trying for better handling while driving in reverse?? Makes no sense. 
Sal Mennella
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75 Cougar XR7
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-January-2017 at 4:03PM
Originally posted by Power Surge Power Surge wrote:

[As I mentioned previously, more caster is more stability at speed, and less caster is more responsive low speed turning. So negative caster will make for some pretty squirrely driving on the highway. 

I don't know why....but in my years of doing alignments I have noticed that many 60s and 70s Fords have negative caster as spec. Were they trying for better handling while driving in reverse?? Makes no sense. 
 
I believe the reason for the slightly negative or zero caster in the specs was for manual steering cars. It makes it easier to steer especially at low speeds.  I think that's why the later Torinos have a much greater caster spec too, as the power steering became standard in the later years.
 
FWIW, when I get back home I will post the alignment specs from the Torino handling book.  He has the specs for stock suspension with maximum caster and a bit of negative camber.  I remember when we had my car on the rack it was difficult to get the positive caster and the negative camber.  I ended up with way more than stock caster, but we had a hard time getting the negative camber.  This is probably where the control arms with the build in caster would help.  With these you wouldn't have to max the slots out so much and it'd be easier to get the negative camber. 


Edited by 72FordGTS - 19-January-2017 at 4:03PM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-January-2017 at 4:20PM
yeah i'm thinking those arms may be just the ticket after all, i may call them tomorrow.
 thanks sal, oh BTW that was me that sent you a friend request on facebook yesterday...note the avatar Wink
JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE
74 VETTE CUSTOM
90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED
77 CELICA CUSTOM
75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED
79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED
75 VEGA V6 5 SPD
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SPLUHAR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-January-2017 at 5:03AM
I heard of a dirt track racer that removed the inside strut rod bushing and tightened the strut rod bolt to just clear the inside washer to gain caster.  The inside one is only used (as a cushion) when you hit a bump in reverse.  Idk if I'd remove it completely, but trimming it??? 
 
I am considering re-drilling the inner lower control arm hole, 1" higher (if the arm will clear the motor mount bolts) to modify the camber curve (same idea as adding to the top of the spindle with a taller ball joint).
 
I could cut the upper shock mount off and re-weld it on to give more caster adjustment.


Edited by SPLUHAR - 20-January-2017 at 5:04AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Bird Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-January-2017 at 11:24AM
Originally posted by Power Surge Power Surge wrote:

Originally posted by californiajohnny californiajohnny wrote:

Originally posted by SPLUHAR SPLUHAR wrote:

Originally posted by californiajohnny californiajohnny wrote:

if i'm understanding this correctly... so more negative caster is better?
 
 more positive caster is good. 
 

Positive caster is leaning the spindle back towards the back of the car.  
 

 
so the top of the spindle leaning back is "positive" caster???? ( i thought that was negative caster)
 my specs after the alignment is... LF -0.9* RF -1.3* total caster -1.0* specified range 0.0--4.0* so this may be the problem then? i can't remember if i slotted the holes out while the a-arms were off for bushings??? i'll have to check...hmm

As I mentioned previously, more caster is more stability at speed, and less caster is more responsive low speed turning. So negative caster will make for some pretty squirrely driving on the highway. 

I don't know why....but in my years of doing alignments I have noticed that many 60s and 70s Fords have negative caster as spec. Were they trying for better handling while driving in reverse?? Makes no sense. 
I think it might have to do with bias ply versus radials, I remember my shop teacher going on about alignment and tire type, but that was a very long time ago, many, many beers ago.
"What we do in full frontal view, is more honest than your cleaned-up mind."
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How the Heck does a REGULAR CAB SHORTBED weigh over 5200 pounds?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-January-2017 at 1:59PM
Originally posted by SPLUHAR SPLUHAR wrote:

I heard of a dirt track racer that removed the inside strut rod bushing and tightened the strut rod bolt to just clear the inside washer to gain caster.  The inside one is only used (as a cushion) when you hit a bump in reverse.  Idk if I'd remove it completely, but trimming it??? 
 
I am considering re-drilling the inner lower control arm hole, 1" higher (if the arm will clear the motor mount bolts) to modify the camber curve (same idea as adding to the top of the spindle with a taller ball joint).
 
I could cut the upper shock mount off and re-weld it on to give more caster adjustment.
genius!!! why didn't i realize this about the strut rod??? my celica has nearly the same set up and it has nuts on both sides of the bushings so the rod can be adjusted for caster!!! not trim the bushing but pull the rod and machine off the knob and relocate it back a little further Wink just need to figure out a simple but accurate measurement to find the caster CL center of the grease zerk to grease zerk???  
JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE
74 VETTE CUSTOM
90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED
77 CELICA CUSTOM
75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED
79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED
75 VEGA V6 5 SPD
70 CHEV C10 P/U
68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Power Surge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-January-2017 at 2:28PM
Originally posted by californiajohnny californiajohnny wrote:

genius!!! why didn't i realize this about the strut rod??? my celica has nearly the same set up and it has nuts on both sides of the bushings so the rod can be adjusted for caster!!! not trim the bushing but pull the rod and machine off the knob and relocate it back a little further Wink just need to figure out a simple but accurate measurement to find the caster CL center of the grease zerk to grease zerk???  

Keep something in mind here..... you definitely can alter caster via the strut rod. Either modifying it, the bushing, or getting an adjustable one. 

However.... understand that moving the LOWER control arm from it's original location will also distort the lower control arm bushing as well. It was not designed to pivot side to side. 
Sal Mennella
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75 Cougar XR7
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-January-2017 at 2:54PM
yes true! FWIW i just bought a set of the upper arms from littleshopmfg a few minutes ago Wink
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90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED
77 CELICA CUSTOM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Power Surge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-January-2017 at 2:59PM
Originally posted by californiajohnny californiajohnny wrote:

yes true! FWIW i just bought a set of the upper arms from littleshopmfg a few minutes ago Wink

Very nice. They must only have one set left at this point if what I was told was true. They are nice pieces. I wish I could have gotten them raw instead of coated though. Make sure you order the proper part number energy suspension bushings for them. 
Sal Mennella
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-January-2017 at 3:06PM
their web page states energy suspension#4.3111 i have those in red, plus new ball joints everything has less than 1,000 miles on them, so it should just be a matter of swapping the arms and realignment Wink yeah eric said he had one set ready to ship right now Big smile
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74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE
74 VETTE CUSTOM
90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED
77 CELICA CUSTOM
75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED
79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED
75 VEGA V6 5 SPD
70 CHEV C10 P/U
68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-January-2017 at 8:18AM

I pulled out the old Torino Handling book and this is what they recommend for alignment:

Caster:  3 to 5.5 degrees positive
Camber:  0 to -0.5 degress
Toe In:  1/16 to 1/8" toe in
 
Nominal:
 
Caster: 4 degrees positive
Camber: -1/2 degree
Toe:  1/16" with poly bushings, 1/8" with rubber.
 
FWIW, this guy also made some brackets up and was able to use a front sway bar on the rear of his car.  But he was of the opinion that these cars need more roll stiffness in the rear to help get rid of the understeer.  Although the end result isn't a factory look, it might be a solution for those looking to use a bar larger than 7/8" on the rear.
Vince

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Billy C View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Billy C Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-January-2017 at 2:48AM
Ya, I have that book. It's pretty useless now that I've done so much work on my own. I don't remember there being any real data in that book either. No track times, logger data, or even direct back to back comparisons. I set my car a those specs way back when I first put it together and it was an ok setup for cruising on Sundays or daily driving but for true performance its not nearly aggressive enough enough. The torino has so much front end weight and no camber gain from travel. I just maxed out the caster and I'm somewhere in ballpark of 3 degrees of camber at this point. I used my lower radius rods to help dial in as much caster as I could get. It help gives a completely numb steering feel a little bit of feedback. The caster also helps with camber gain when the wheel turns so it's a win win.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Bird Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-January-2017 at 4:29AM
Originally posted by californiajohnny californiajohnny wrote:

Originally posted by SPLUHAR SPLUHAR wrote:

I heard of a dirt track racer that removed the inside strut rod bushing and tightened the strut rod bolt to just clear the inside washer to gain caster.  The inside one is only used (as a cushion) when you hit a bump in reverse.  Idk if I'd remove it completely, but trimming it??? 
 
I am considering re-drilling the inner lower control arm hole, 1" higher (if the arm will clear the motor mount bolts) to modify the camber curve (same idea as adding to the top of the spindle with a taller ball joint).
 
I could cut the upper shock mount off and re-weld it on to give more caster adjustment.
genius!!! why didn't i realize this about the strut rod??? my celica has nearly the same set up and it has nuts on both sides of the bushings so the rod can be adjusted for caster!!! not trim the bushing but pull the rod and machine off the knob and relocate it back a little further Wink just need to figure out a simple but accurate measurement to find the caster CL center of the grease zerk to grease zerk???  
After machining the rear seat, you could then shim the bushings behind the washer as needed for more adjustment.
Some where on here, there are pictures of MTBurger's build thread. in it he has pictures of an adjustable strut rod. I had found the picture sometime back and posted it with pictures of NASCAR Holman/Moody Banjo Matthews front clips. They have a big sleeve like a tie rod in the middle.
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Randy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-January-2017 at 5:44AM
 yeah i remember those pics! i got a set of those littleshop modified a arms IIRC they moved the ball joint back 4 or 5* so i'll try them. i just want to get rid of that "twitchy" feeling at cruising speeds.
 now if i was going to build a canyon burner... i'd go with vette C-4 or C-5 front suspension grafted on and C-4 rear suspension and differential set up Wink (i know most of you guys are badmouthing those chevys, but go out there and mess with a vette...let me know how that works out for ya LOL or better yet go drive one!!! you'll seeWinkBig smile)
JOHN
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