Road / Track Suspension Discussion |
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Rockatansky
Senior Member Joined: 30-July-2010 Location: On The Road Status: Offline Points: 6059 |
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is it the front end 'doghouse' sheet metal creating a parachute, would venting the pocket help?
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72 GT Ute
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californiajohnny
Moderator Group Joined: 05-October-2013 Location: winlock, wa Status: Offline Points: 14606 |
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JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE 74 VETTE CUSTOM 90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED 77 CELICA CUSTOM 75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED 79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED 75 VEGA V6 5 SPD 70 CHEV C10 P/U 68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION |
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Power Surge
Senior Member Joined: 06-March-2016 Location: Palm Coast, FL Status: Offline Points: 542 |
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Yeah man, the build thread is here... |
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Sal Mennella
73 GTS 351 CJ 75 Cougar XR7 73 Ranchero - 5.0 Coyote swap - in progress Past Torinos - 72 Gran Torino, 75 Gran Torino, 75 Elite |
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californiajohnny
Moderator Group Joined: 05-October-2013 Location: winlock, wa Status: Offline Points: 14606 |
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if i'm understanding this correctly... so more negative caster is better?
the issue i'm having on my car is at about 50-60 MPH the steering is too quick! a little twitchy, just the slightest turn of the wheel and it wants to turn too quick IMO, i am used to it but none of my other cars do this! i remember seeing on here somewhere talk about the pump pressure being too much and maybe causes this? |
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JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE 74 VETTE CUSTOM 90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED 77 CELICA CUSTOM 75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED 79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED 75 VEGA V6 5 SPD 70 CHEV C10 P/U 68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION |
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Big Bird
Senior Member Joined: 25-August-2013 Location: New York Status: Offline Points: 4194 |
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If you raise the back and lower the front, these get squirrelly because you don't have enough adjustment available to fix the caster. (with factory parts)
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"What we do in full frontal view, is more honest than your cleaned-up mind."
Randy 1979 T-Bird 2005 F-150 STX RCSB 4.6, 3.55 LSD How the Heck does a REGULAR CAB SHORTBED weigh over 5200 pounds? |
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72FordGTS
Admin Group GTS.org Admin Joined: 06-September-2005 Location: Ontario, Canada Status: Offline Points: 5802 |
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The 72-73 Cars had caster settings in these ranges, but the later cars increased the caster quite a bit. I have the old Torino Handling book and he had some alignment recommendations in his book which were basically maxing out the caster. IIRC it is somewhere around 5 degrees of Caster. I know when I aligned my front end, I put in more front caster than the stock. The only issue with too much caster is that the front wheel gets pushed back further in the wheel well. This may cause clearance issues with big wheels, especially if you go beyond 5 degrees by maxing out the factory slots and using the tubular control arms with caster built into them. As for the aero on these cars, there is definitely some significant front end lift at high speeds. A bit of rake may help with that. Venting the air from the engine compartment would probably make a big difference. This is what some more modern hi-po cars do. But these cars have terrible aero regardless. That said, I find my car is very stable at high speeds, and with my new suspension setup it seems like the front end doesn't lift as much as it did with the stock setup. My car feels just as stable if not more so compared to a CVPI at 100+ MPH. But I haven't really done much other than drive in a straight light at speeds of over 100 MPH. Check out the old NASCAR Torino's and it looks like they have a rake on the car, a chin spoiler and it looks like they grille is restricted. It looks like the rear of the hood might even be elevated to exhaust the air from the engine compartment. I am sure that these things made a big difference at high speeds. |
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Vince
1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car GTS.org Admin |
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BackInBlack
Senior Member Joined: 11-January-2011 Location: Virginia Status: Offline Points: 1013 |
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Love that pic...to cool
Those new A-arms have +4 degrees so I think I'm good for street with that. I also plan on trying to fix some of the aero dynamics. I found a couple air damns from other cars that I thick will fit and mount under my 73 bumper. I was thinking about the air caught in the hood and the front nose and what changes I would make to improve that. Not sure if a rear fin is really needed...but definitely for low speeds the air damn would be worth it I'm not trying to go 180+ ...just thinking about <120mph and the simple modifications that could be made to improve it. Notice how that grill in the pic looks partially blocked off and the one headlight appears to be cold air ducted to the carb. The rear of the hood looks lifted a bit to let air out..hard to tell -John
Edited by BackInBlack - 17-January-2017 at 1:06PM |
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-John
1973 GTS |
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stanman
Senior Member Joined: 23-March-2007 Location: Nova Scotia, Ca Status: Offline Points: 1432 |
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Nice fire resistant bowling shirts. ...
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BackInBlack
Senior Member Joined: 11-January-2011 Location: Virginia Status: Offline Points: 1013 |
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LOL...Big Lebowski style.
I think the guy on the right is "the dude".
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-John
1973 GTS |
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Big Bird
Senior Member Joined: 25-August-2013 Location: New York Status: Offline Points: 4194 |
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"The Dude abides..."
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"What we do in full frontal view, is more honest than your cleaned-up mind."
Randy 1979 T-Bird 2005 F-150 STX RCSB 4.6, 3.55 LSD How the Heck does a REGULAR CAB SHORTBED weigh over 5200 pounds? |
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SPLUHAR
Member Joined: 02-January-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 146 |
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More negative camber is good (half of a degree is what I run), more positive caster is good. Negative camber is leaning the top of the tire in, towards the center of the car. Positive caster is leaning the spindle back towards the back of the car. Positive caster adds some negative camber on the outside tire and positive camber on the inside tire as you steer (both beneficial), and it adds some "wedge" to the car, because the outside tire actually goes up some and the inside tire goes down some (again, beneficial). I've heard or over 10 degrees on Mercedes Benz, for example. |
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1976 ELITE, 71 429 w/cam, quadrajet, 4 wheel Mark V disc brakes, 3.25 trac lok, gutted & 12.9'd Mustang steering box
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SPLUHAR
Member Joined: 02-January-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 146 |
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If you breeze through this thread, a lot of aero work was done to this Mustang, and some suspension work, and the biggest, stickiest tires that would fit. The car was regularly the fastest car on the track in it's time trial class. It was also his wife's commuter car. In post 876, they vent the hood, btw. |
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1976 ELITE, 71 429 w/cam, quadrajet, 4 wheel Mark V disc brakes, 3.25 trac lok, gutted & 12.9'd Mustang steering box
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BackInBlack
Senior Member Joined: 11-January-2011 Location: Virginia Status: Offline Points: 1013 |
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As a data point (right or wrong); I was targeting the following
OEM stock toe in setup = 1/8? Caster = +4 degrees (expect to adjust it +/- 2 degrees) Camber= initial setting zero? maybe a little negative. I'm not sure. Could use some help here. Camber gain I'm planning to set some where between 0.8 deg/in to 1 deg/in max depending on the available wheel travel after lowering. Its all still in planning stages. Would be helpful if someone has any experience with this to help with a setup for street and autocross. I dont mind some extra tire wear but not to crazy. Its still a fun street driver for me.
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-John
1973 GTS |
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californiajohnny
Moderator Group Joined: 05-October-2013 Location: winlock, wa Status: Offline Points: 14606 |
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my specs after the alignment is... LF -0.9* RF -1.3* total caster -1.0* specified range 0.0--4.0* so this may be the problem then? i can't remember if i slotted the holes out while the a-arms were off for bushings??? i'll have to check...hmm |
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JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE 74 VETTE CUSTOM 90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED 77 CELICA CUSTOM 75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED 79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED 75 VEGA V6 5 SPD 70 CHEV C10 P/U 68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION |
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BackInBlack
Senior Member Joined: 11-January-2011 Location: Virginia Status: Offline Points: 1013 |
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-John
1973 GTS |
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californiajohnny
Moderator Group Joined: 05-October-2013 Location: winlock, wa Status: Offline Points: 14606 |
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thanks, yeah i saw a diagram like that a while ago, could have sworn the caster was the opposite ( not like repair manuals aren't full of misinformation right?!) this does make sense now about the quick feeling at cruising speeds
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JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE 74 VETTE CUSTOM 90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED 77 CELICA CUSTOM 75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED 79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED 75 VEGA V6 5 SPD 70 CHEV C10 P/U 68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION |
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Power Surge
Senior Member Joined: 06-March-2016 Location: Palm Coast, FL Status: Offline Points: 542 |
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As I mentioned previously, more caster is more stability at speed, and less caster is more responsive low speed turning. So negative caster will make for some pretty squirrely driving on the highway. I don't know why....but in my years of doing alignments I have noticed that many 60s and 70s Fords have negative caster as spec. Were they trying for better handling while driving in reverse?? Makes no sense.
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Sal Mennella
73 GTS 351 CJ 75 Cougar XR7 73 Ranchero - 5.0 Coyote swap - in progress Past Torinos - 72 Gran Torino, 75 Gran Torino, 75 Elite |
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72FordGTS
Admin Group GTS.org Admin Joined: 06-September-2005 Location: Ontario, Canada Status: Offline Points: 5802 |
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I believe the reason for the slightly negative or zero caster in the specs was for manual steering cars. It makes it easier to steer especially at low speeds. I think that's why the later Torinos have a much greater caster spec too, as the power steering became standard in the later years. FWIW, when I get back home I will post the alignment specs from the Torino handling book. He has the specs for stock suspension with maximum caster and a bit of negative camber. I remember when we had my car on the rack it was difficult to get the positive caster and the negative camber. I ended up with way more than stock caster, but we had a hard time getting the negative camber. This is probably where the control arms with the build in caster would help. With these you wouldn't have to max the slots out so much and it'd be easier to get the negative camber.
Edited by 72FordGTS - 19-January-2017 at 4:03PM |
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Vince
1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car GTS.org Admin |
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californiajohnny
Moderator Group Joined: 05-October-2013 Location: winlock, wa Status: Offline Points: 14606 |
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yeah i'm thinking those arms may be just the ticket after all, i may call them tomorrow.
thanks sal, oh BTW that was me that sent you a friend request on facebook yesterday...note the avatar |
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JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE 74 VETTE CUSTOM 90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED 77 CELICA CUSTOM 75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED 79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED 75 VEGA V6 5 SPD 70 CHEV C10 P/U 68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION |
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SPLUHAR
Member Joined: 02-January-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 146 |
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I heard of a dirt track racer that removed the inside strut rod bushing and tightened the strut rod bolt to just clear the inside washer to gain caster. The inside one is only used (as a cushion) when you hit a bump in reverse. Idk if I'd remove it completely, but trimming it???
I am considering re-drilling the inner lower control arm hole, 1" higher (if the arm will clear the motor mount bolts) to modify the camber curve (same idea as adding to the top of the spindle with a taller ball joint). I could cut the upper shock mount off and re-weld it on to give more caster adjustment.
Edited by SPLUHAR - 20-January-2017 at 5:04AM |
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1976 ELITE, 71 429 w/cam, quadrajet, 4 wheel Mark V disc brakes, 3.25 trac lok, gutted & 12.9'd Mustang steering box
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Big Bird
Senior Member Joined: 25-August-2013 Location: New York Status: Offline Points: 4194 |
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"What we do in full frontal view, is more honest than your cleaned-up mind."
Randy 1979 T-Bird 2005 F-150 STX RCSB 4.6, 3.55 LSD How the Heck does a REGULAR CAB SHORTBED weigh over 5200 pounds? |
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californiajohnny
Moderator Group Joined: 05-October-2013 Location: winlock, wa Status: Offline Points: 14606 |
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JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE 74 VETTE CUSTOM 90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED 77 CELICA CUSTOM 75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED 79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED 75 VEGA V6 5 SPD 70 CHEV C10 P/U 68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION |
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Power Surge
Senior Member Joined: 06-March-2016 Location: Palm Coast, FL Status: Offline Points: 542 |
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Keep something in mind here..... you definitely can alter caster via the strut rod. Either modifying it, the bushing, or getting an adjustable one. However.... understand that moving the LOWER control arm from it's original location will also distort the lower control arm bushing as well. It was not designed to pivot side to side.
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Sal Mennella
73 GTS 351 CJ 75 Cougar XR7 73 Ranchero - 5.0 Coyote swap - in progress Past Torinos - 72 Gran Torino, 75 Gran Torino, 75 Elite |
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californiajohnny
Moderator Group Joined: 05-October-2013 Location: winlock, wa Status: Offline Points: 14606 |
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yes true! FWIW i just bought a set of the upper arms from littleshopmfg a few minutes ago
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JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE 74 VETTE CUSTOM 90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED 77 CELICA CUSTOM 75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED 79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED 75 VEGA V6 5 SPD 70 CHEV C10 P/U 68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION |
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Power Surge
Senior Member Joined: 06-March-2016 Location: Palm Coast, FL Status: Offline Points: 542 |
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Very nice. They must only have one set left at this point if what I was told was true. They are nice pieces. I wish I could have gotten them raw instead of coated though. Make sure you order the proper part number energy suspension bushings for them.
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Sal Mennella
73 GTS 351 CJ 75 Cougar XR7 73 Ranchero - 5.0 Coyote swap - in progress Past Torinos - 72 Gran Torino, 75 Gran Torino, 75 Elite |
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californiajohnny
Moderator Group Joined: 05-October-2013 Location: winlock, wa Status: Offline Points: 14606 |
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their web page states energy suspension#4.3111 i have those in red, plus new ball joints everything has less than 1,000 miles on them, so it should just be a matter of swapping the arms and realignment yeah eric said he had one set ready to ship right now
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JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE 74 VETTE CUSTOM 90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED 77 CELICA CUSTOM 75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED 79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED 75 VEGA V6 5 SPD 70 CHEV C10 P/U 68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION |
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72FordGTS
Admin Group GTS.org Admin Joined: 06-September-2005 Location: Ontario, Canada Status: Offline Points: 5802 |
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I pulled out the old Torino Handling book and this is what they recommend for alignment: Caster: 3 to 5.5 degrees positive Camber: 0 to -0.5 degress Toe In: 1/16 to 1/8" toe in Nominal: Caster: 4 degrees positive Camber: -1/2 degree Toe: 1/16" with poly bushings, 1/8" with rubber. FWIW, this guy also made some brackets up and was able to use a front sway bar on the rear of his car. But he was of the opinion that these cars need more roll stiffness in the rear to help get rid of the understeer. Although the end result isn't a factory look, it might be a solution for those looking to use a bar larger than 7/8" on the rear.
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Vince
1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car GTS.org Admin |
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Billy C
Senior Member Joined: 10-February-2010 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Status: Offline Points: 947 |
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Ya, I have that book. It's pretty useless now that I've done so much work on my own. I don't remember there being any real data in that book either. No track times, logger data, or even direct back to back comparisons. I set my car a those specs way back when I first put it together and it was an ok setup for cruising on Sundays or daily driving but for true performance its not nearly aggressive enough enough. The torino has so much front end weight and no camber gain from travel. I just maxed out the caster and I'm somewhere in ballpark of 3 degrees of camber at this point. I used my lower radius rods to help dial in as much caster as I could get. It help gives a completely numb steering feel a little bit of feedback. The caster also helps with camber gain when the wheel turns so it's a win win.
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-Billy Conturo
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Big Bird
Senior Member Joined: 25-August-2013 Location: New York Status: Offline Points: 4194 |
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Some where on here, there are pictures of MTBurger's build thread. in it he has pictures of an adjustable strut rod. I had found the picture sometime back and posted it with pictures of NASCAR Holman/Moody Banjo Matthews front clips. They have a big sleeve like a tie rod in the middle.
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"What we do in full frontal view, is more honest than your cleaned-up mind."
Randy 1979 T-Bird 2005 F-150 STX RCSB 4.6, 3.55 LSD How the Heck does a REGULAR CAB SHORTBED weigh over 5200 pounds? |
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californiajohnny
Moderator Group Joined: 05-October-2013 Location: winlock, wa Status: Offline Points: 14606 |
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yeah i remember those pics! i got a set of those littleshop modified a arms IIRC they moved the ball joint back 4 or 5* so i'll try them. i just want to get rid of that "twitchy" feeling at cruising speeds.
now if i was going to build a canyon burner... i'd go with vette C-4 or C-5 front suspension grafted on and C-4 rear suspension and differential set up (i know most of you guys are badmouthing those chevys, but go out there and mess with a vette...let me know how that works out for ya or better yet go drive one!!! you'll see) |
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JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE 74 VETTE CUSTOM 90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED 77 CELICA CUSTOM 75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED 79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED 75 VEGA V6 5 SPD 70 CHEV C10 P/U 68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION |
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