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Road / Track Suspension Discussion

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-January-2017 at 6:04AM

Originally posted by Billy C Billy C wrote:

Ya, I have that book. It's pretty useless now that I've done so much work on my own. I don't remember there being any real data in that book either. No track times, logger data, or even direct back to back comparisons. I set my car a those specs way back when I first put it together and it was an ok setup for cruising on Sundays or daily driving but for true performance its not nearly aggressive enough enough. The torino has so much front end weight and no camber gain from travel. I just maxed out the caster and I'm somewhere in ballpark of 3 degrees of camber at this point. I used my lower radius rods to help dial in as much caster as I could get. It help gives a completely numb steering feel a little bit of feedback. The caster also helps with camber gain when the wheel turns so it's a win win.

If you have better alignment settings for track work, why don't you share them?  I thought that the Torino front suspension has positive camber gain as it compresses?  That's what John found, and so did the guy who wrote the handling book.  He also talked of a similar plan to John, where he wanted to use spindle extenders to help reduce the positive camber gain.


Yes the book is dated,  the 3rd edition was written in 2000, but it still offers some useful info.  I still think his installation of a front bar in the rear might be useful to some here.  Certainly much easier than trying to custom make a larger than 7/8" rear bar bar.  I also think his alignment specs are probably good for 90% of people here, especially if they are interested in street driving. They are a big improvement over the OEM settings.  The author, Mark Reams, does have extensive credentials in the automotive world.  He may not have data loggers (were they around in the late 90's) but claims he has 50K test miles on his Ranchero he built.  That's got to be worth something.

 

Vince

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-January-2017 at 6:07AM
Originally posted by 72FordGTS 72FordGTS wrote:

I pulled out the old Torino Handling book and this is what they recommend for alignment:

Caster:  3 to 5.5 degrees positive
Camber:  0 to -0.5 degress
Toe In:  1/16 to 1/8" toe in
 
Nominal:
 
Caster: 4 degrees positive
Camber: -1/2 degree
Toe:  1/16" with poly bushings, 1/8" with rubber.
 
 
Compare these specs to OEM specs.  The ones posted about would be a BIG improvement over the stock 1972-73 settings.  Maybe not the ultimate track setup, but at least it might be a good starting point.
 

1972-73

Caster:  -1 1/4 to 2 3/4    Preferred:  +3/4
Camber:  -1/4 to 1 3/4     Preferred:  +3/4
Toe-in:  1/16" to 7/16"
 
1974:
 

Caster:   1/2 to 3 1/3              Preferred:  +2
Left Camber:  -3/8 to 1 5/8     Preferred:  +1/2
Right Camber: -7/8 to 1 1/8    Preferred:  +1/8
Toe-in:  1/8"

1975-76 (power steering standard):
 
Caster:   3 1/4 to 4 3/4           Preferred:  +4
Left Camber:  -1/4 to 1 1/4     Preferred:  +1/2
Right Camber: -1/2 to 1          Preferred:  +1/4
Toe-in:  1/8"
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-January-2017 at 6:12AM
Originally posted by Big Bird Big Bird wrote:

After machining the rear seat, you could then shim the bushings behind the washer as needed for more adjustment.
Some where on here, there are pictures of MTBurger's build thread. in it he has pictures of an adjustable strut rod. I had found the picture sometime back and posted it with pictures of NASCAR Holman/Moody Banjo Matthews front clips. They have a big sleeve like a tie rod in the middle.
If someone is going to the trouble of doing all this work, I don't think it'd be wise to stick with the stock rubber strut rod bushings.  Those bushings are not going to keep that arm in alignment under hard cornering forces. The Little Shop makes the solid spherical bushings which I installed on my car, and I think they are awesome.  No issues with the control arm moving around, it keeps it firmly mounted and the geometry correct.  If then the threaded adjustment was added to the rod, at least you could add positive caster without having to move the wheel back in the wheel well.  But since you can get 5 degrees of positive caster with the stock arms and slots, I am not sure how much more would be advantageous?


Edited by 72FordGTS - 22-January-2017 at 6:59AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-January-2017 at 6:18AM
Originally posted by californiajohnny californiajohnny wrote:

 yeah i remember those pics! i got a set of those littleshop modified a arms IIRC they moved the ball joint back 4 or 5* so i'll try them. i just want to get rid of that "twitchy" feeling at cruising speeds.
 now if i was going to build a canyon burner... i'd go with vette C-4 or C-5 front suspension grafted on and C-4 rear suspension and differential set up Wink (i know most of you guys are badmouthing those chevys, but go out there and mess with a vette...let me know how that works out for ya LOL or better yet go drive one!!! you'll seeWinkBig smile)
 
Johnny, as you probably already know, rake effects the caster.  IIRC your car has pretty steep rake, so maybe your caster is too negative from the rake.  I think your car is a prime example that can really use the tubular control arms with the caster built into them.  This should allow for you to get a lot more than stock caster to help compensate for the rake.  What alignment specs are you going to use?  I posted OEM, plus the specs from the Handling book above. 
 
I know what you mean about the Vette suspensions.  The C5 and newer cars are especially awesome and actually have good geometry unlike our Torinos.  My dad has a C6, which I did some suspension upgrades on,  but even when stock that thing sticks like glue.  Pretty neat, it has the built in "g meter" too so you can see how many g's you pull on each corner. 
 
 


Edited by 72FordGTS - 22-January-2017 at 6:58AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-January-2017 at 6:35AM
i think i'll try the +5* caster 1/2* neg camber will be fine and 1/16" toe in should be fine
 i noticed the right side is pretty far out on the slot probably due to some frame damage under there, i pulled the lower part of the cross member back forward on the right side for the lower control arm. looks like someone had jumped this car a few times Confused so with those modified upper arms it should work out better
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BackInBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-January-2017 at 8:46AM
Comment on the vette reference for Johnny:   I talked to a local shop owner regarding making suspension changes on my torino to make it "up to date".   I asked his opinion my approach; while talking we got distracted as he gave me  tour of the shop and the cool cars.  Part of the conversion was regarding a couple vettes he had sitting in the shop setup up for SCCA racing.  He built and maintained Porches, Ferraris, BMW, etc for guys that raced them in SCCA level racing. 

What he said about the vette was:  "When your running that vette around the track you would swear that it was shaking and rattling apart, leaving parts behind you on the track, but they hold up and BTW they go like stink on the track.  Best bang for your buck if you want to do some autocross/roadracing."

Vettes has a completely different suspension setup then ours.   Less travel, roll center below ground, etc, etc.  Regarding my conversation, he thought I was on the right track with the changes for street.   I will hit him up for more advice when I get back to the suspension.   This is a 70's platform; there is only so much you can do without significant changes.   Lots of referencing NASCAR suspensions and mods, but they are not minor improvements.   Major cut and replace setups which is not where i want to go with my Torino.   

Cutting shock towers relocating suspension mounts etc is beyond what I can do nor do I have the tools for that.  I'm looking for simple mods sticking to the basics that improve the OEM setup to maximize its capabilities without cutting and replacing major parts off.  

Honestly, I think the suspension setup is pretty good overall but needs minor mods to get rid of the family car handling and get back to some muscle car roots.





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Billy C Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-January-2017 at 3:15PM
Originally posted by 72FordGTS 72FordGTS wrote:

Originally posted by Billy C Billy C wrote:

Ya, I have that book. It's pretty useless now that I've done so much work on my own. I don't remember there being any real data in that book either. No track times, logger data, or even direct back to back comparisons. I set my car a those specs way back when I first put it together and it was an ok setup for cruising on Sundays or daily driving but for true performance its not nearly aggressive enough enough. The torino has so much front end weight and no camber gain from travel. I just maxed out the caster and I'm somewhere in ballpark of 3 degrees of camber at this point. I used my lower radius rods to help dial in as much caster as I could get. It help gives a completely numb steering feel a little bit of feedback. The caster also helps with camber gain when the wheel turns so it's a win win.

If you have better alignment settings for track work, why don't you share them?  I thought that the Torino front suspension has positive camber gain as it compresses?  That's what John found, and so did the guy who wrote the handling book.  He also talked of a similar plan to John, where he wanted to use spindle extenders to help reduce the positive camber gain.


Yes the book is dated,  the 3rd edition was written in 2000, but it still offers some useful info.  I still think his installation of a front bar in the rear might be useful to some here.  Certainly much easier than trying to custom make a larger than 7/8" rear bar bar.  I also think his alignment specs are probably good for 90% of people here, especially if they are interested in street driving. They are a big improvement over the OEM settings.  The author, Mark Reams, does have extensive credentials in the automotive world.  He may not have data loggers (were they around in the late 90's) but claims he has 50K test miles on his Ranchero he built.  That's got to be worth something.

Sorry, I didn't intend to totally bash it or offend anyone.

I though I had already posted my specs here somewhere. I forget exactly what the last setup I did on the alignment rack was but I think is was in the ballpark of..

6* pos caster

2* neg camber

zero toe or in hair

The caster and camber have to play together on the upper arm. You cant have everything. By running caster it takes up space in the slots because then there isn't any room to bring them in. Also there is the physical limit of the front wheel well. I always say max out the caster but if all you have is the upper arm adjustment then a fat tire will hit the back of the wheel well at like 8* or something.


There is a little positive camber gain when the wheel travels up but the thought is that the camber lost (neg) from caster way outdoes the slight camber gained (pos) in travel. The only time camber is necessary is when the car is seeing lateral acceleration and that's basically any time the wheels turn. I run the static camber because the tires deflect so much. All the negative camber combined from all geometry is required to keep a sticky tire from folding on it's self under high corner loads in a big car. 

I'm certainly not the average torino builder/driver/owner but if I'm building a car with 500hp I want it to be able to at least play with mustangs. Crazy setups are required for this with a car that has a less than ideal starting point in the first place. If I didn't go crazy with it I would just have a loud smelly expensive build that would get destroyed by any mustang gt. That's ok for most people I guess.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-January-2017 at 2:57PM
Originally posted by Billy C Billy C wrote:

Sorry, I didn't intend to totally bash it or offend anyone.

I though I had already posted my specs here somewhere. I forget exactly what the last setup I did on the alignment rack was but I think is was in the ballpark of..

 

 
If this was directed at me, I didn't take any offence.  I think we are all just trying to share info on this site to figure out what's best for each of our cars.  That's why I asked you to share your alignment specs since you have some track experience with your car.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mkshelton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-March-2017 at 8:02AM
Any news regarding this subject? Im considering taking my boat to autocross.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Billy C Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-March-2017 at 10:06AM
Do it! It's a great way to get to know how your car drives at the limit. I've had lots of fun with my car on course. I'm planning on doing more track stuff this summer to test a few more parts and things I've been working on. Let us know how it goes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mkshelton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-March-2017 at 11:52AM
I think I might get the ball rolling this way. I used to autocross datsuns in stock class 15 years ago. Thing is, I'm not sure what to do to get this thing at all capable. I have stock, worn out suspension, ball joints, brakes, 15" wheels. Obviously I would repair the broken stuff, but would stock components be up to the rigors of changing direction hard? I'm pretty sure that even in prime condition, my car would not be competitive in stock form, I think it would be in F stock class. Which would pit it against Foxes and other much lighter, quicker cars, (with 5 speeds!) So I may as well prepare it so it's fun for me, without spending much cash that is.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Billy C Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-March-2017 at 12:47PM
AutoX isn't very crazy. The runs are quick so heat doesn't build up like a road coarse. If you run pretty normal tires you should be well within the design limits of a completely stock car. Get fresh tires, fix the suspension stuff, get good front pads and new rotors, high temp brake fluid, fresh engine fluids, and let it rip. I might not be super competitive but it will be a blast.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lynchster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-March-2017 at 1:45PM
A baffled oil pan might be a consideration.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Billy C Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-March-2017 at 1:53PM
^^ ya, that's a awesome suggestion. 

If you aren't trying to do all that work, adding a quart of oil over full just for track day would probably solve any oiling issues with street tires. I ran my old 460 big block a quart over by default for over a year with countless times spent hitting the rev limiter. I pulled that motor in running condition.


Edited by Billy C - 26-March-2017 at 1:53PM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lynchster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-March-2017 at 2:22PM
Originally posted by Billy C Billy C wrote:

adding a quart of oil over full just for track day would probably solve any oiling issues with street tires.


Not a bad idea either sir.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrSmog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-March-2017 at 3:10PM
I believe thats all they did with the boss 351's, the dipstick was just etched for 6 qts to show full. I don't think the pan held anymore capacity over a non boss pan. so its good to run it that way all the time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BackInBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-March-2017 at 2:46AM
Originally posted by mkshelton mkshelton wrote:

I think I might get the ball rolling this way. I used to autocross datsuns in stock class 15 years ago. Thing is, I'm not sure what to do to get this thing at all capable. I have stock, worn out suspension, ball joints, brakes, 15" wheels. Obviously I would repair the broken stuff, but would stock components be up to the rigors of changing direction hard? I'm pretty sure that even in prime condition, my car would not be competitive in stock form, I think it would be in F stock class. Which would pit it against Foxes and other much lighter, quicker cars, (with 5 speeds!) So I may as well prepare it so it's fun for me, without spending much cash that is.


The other guys gave good advice.

It wont take much more than a clean stock rebuild of the suspension.  I would use rubber bushings on the front strut arm (the big rubber doughnuts) and rubber bushings in the rear control arms.  They weren't designed for the rigid mount a poly bushing provides.   You could get away with poly in the rear control arms.   I have boxed/welded rear control arms with poly installed that I'm willing to sell. (I have tubular arms now)

Good tires a must, clean rebuild (ball joints, steering, bushings, etc) with poly bushings in the suspension except where mentioned above, good seat belts to keep you from sliding around,  and you will need bigger sway bars and/or fresh springs cause the body lean is pretty bad in stock form.

Not to expensive if you keep it stock with a few hundred dollars more for simple upgrades (excluding wheels/tires). 

If your running a cleveland that isn't a boss there are numerous fixes that are needed to the oiling system to run it hard.  Keep it below 5500 rpm.   Even low rpm usage causes excessive bearing wear.   Clevelands really need lifter bushings, restrictors, that all require pulling the motor which are worth doing if your pulling hte motor for a rebuild.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mkshelton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-March-2017 at 5:55AM
My car is a 76 Elite with 351w, c4. Thanks for the oil advice, I was concerned about that issue, but never thought about over adding the oil. This motor only has 8k on it's rebuild. 
If anyone has seen the car in the project thread, you've seen that it's already about 200 lbs lighter up front. I'm going to have to cut the springs down as it sits with the nose up now. Any advice regarding that? Still the crown vic springs?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-March-2017 at 6:34AM
CVPI springs seem to be the goto for most on here.  Most stock replacements are pretty soft.  You'll have cut them to your desired stance though.  Addco makes 1 1/8" front and 7/8" rear bars. 
I agree with John's advice, but I'd run the strut rod bearing from Little Shop Mfg.  I installed these in my car and the really made the front end much more solid.  They are expensive, but ensure that your control arms stay in proper geometry.
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrSmog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-March-2017 at 8:07AM
Originally posted by mkshelton mkshelton wrote:

My car is a 76 Elite with 351w, c4. Thanks for the oil advice, I was concerned about that issue, but never thought about over adding the oil. This motor only has 8k on it's rebuild. 
If anyone has seen the car in the project thread, you've seen that it's already about 200 lbs lighter up front. I'm going to have to cut the springs down as it sits with the nose up now. Any advice regarding that? Still the crown vic springs?


I missed that you ran a 351w, should be fine to go a qt over, but may want to check as I know its fine and encouraged to do on the 351c, but not positive on the windsor series engines. I'd double check just to be sure.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mkshelton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-March-2017 at 5:33AM
Another question is the rear gearing, I currently still have the stock 2.75? gears and I'm thinking that 3.5 would be best.
As anyone autox an automatic? If so, did you run in 1st gear mostly and kick it to 2nd on the straight? Usually these are at the end of the course. If I kept it in 1st gear, maybe the 2.75 rear gear would be okay?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Bird Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-March-2017 at 8:58AM
IDK about autocross, but I used to put 3.55 rears in my 80s Crown Vics, and they were WAY more fun that way. Takeoff from a dead stop was an excuse for tire destruction.
City driving was FUN!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-March-2017 at 10:03AM
Originally posted by mkshelton mkshelton wrote:

Another question is the rear gearing, I currently still have the stock 2.75? gears ... If I kept it in 1st gear, maybe the 2.75 rear gear would be okay?
 
you're trying to play a Jedi mind trick on yourself, a 2.75 gear is a 2.75 gear is a 2.75 gear as the day is long. the car always starts out in 1st gear and 2.75 gears sCryck
 
you might want to bump that gear quite a bit more than 3.5 for track work, 4.5, 5.3?
 
the rear gear is the single most responsible component for how a car performs, i doubt you'll run out of rpm constantly turning L & R,
 
what's the expected top speed in the straight?


Edited by Rockatansky - 28-March-2017 at 10:07AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Billy C Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-March-2017 at 12:42PM
You should get the car out on the track before you decide on a gear. See how the gears you have perform and if you find yourself shifting in uncomfortable spots decide where you want to be and gear it that way. Deep final gears are a quick solution to get out of hole quick with some good ol fashioned torque multiplication but no torque multiplication will make more hp. When you do decide on what gears, go all out and build or buy a limited slip setup.

I did a good bit of data logging with my auto but only had it on the street. Always had that in first with the 3.25 final gear.

With the tko and 3.25 I had courses that I stayed in first the entire time and when I hit the straight i was hitting the limiter at the very end and it would have hurt time more to shift so I just kept it to the limiter unil the box.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mkshelton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-March-2017 at 1:50PM
That's what I was thinking, Billy. In my Datsun, I would have to shift for the straightways, but that was a 4 speed. You only get to 40, maybe 50 mph max. I don't know at what speed my car would reach as it sits now, but it sure feels sluggish from a stop, even in first gear.
Rock, what I was talking about was leaving the shifter in 1st, and as Billy said, letting it wind all the way up for the whole run.
This car has the quicker Lares steering box but that's about it.

By the way, I apologize if we have come too far from the intended discussion on road/track suspension.
To get back on topic, is there a way to simply build some new upper control arms that are located more in line with the LCAs and use a link to locate the axle? Would that be worth it? I've not driven one of these cars at their limits as mine has some serious suspension concerns.
The reason I'm considering more radical changes are that I need to address suspension repair right away, want to autox it hard, keep it from doing anything unexpected when driven to the edge of reason, have a good welder, and experience in the offroading side of fabbing.(but definitely more of the run it till it breaks and then weld it up with twice the metal kind) 

Also, how necessary is it to keep the rubber body bushings, would solid mounts help?

Thanks for ya'lls input!
"Sometimes I wonder if I'm actually UNinventing the wheel"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mkshelton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-April-2017 at 9:17AM
Hi all, I was wondering if we know of a supplier for taller upper ball joints. I know it was discussed, but does anyone know who sells them?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BackInBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-April-2017 at 9:59AM
I acquired the last stock Howe Racing had a while ago; they may have 1 or 2 left in stock.   You can give them a call to see what they have.  Unfortunately most cater to Chevy setups with the 4 bolt upper.   

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BackInBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-April-2017 at 1:58PM
I figured out another way by welding in a adapter sleeve in the lower control arm which allows using a Chrysler k727 screw in ball joint. This would also lower the car without lowering springs. Beware if you go beyond 1 inch this could cause binding in the upper ball joint.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BackInBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-October-2017 at 8:46AM
Has anyone installed coil-overs in the rear in our forum?

I'm wondering if you can use the shock mounts as is....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BackInBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-October-2017 at 2:49PM
The rear lower shock mounts look plenty strong for coilovers....the upper shock mounts may not be. I'm wondering if anyone on our forum actually installed coil overs in the rear

Edited by BackInBlack - 12-October-2017 at 11:44PM
-John
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