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Road / Track Suspension Discussion

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Psquare75 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psquare75 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-April-2011 at 4:11AM

These? I have a set in my Cougar. 
Paul
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BackInBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-August-2011 at 6:11AM
Thought this would interest you...
 
This guy is transplanting 04 Mustang Cobra power train suspension in a 68 Torino.   Pretty cool.
 
 
Independent rear suspension for a 04 Cobra.
 
-John
-John
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BackInBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-March-2012 at 3:21AM
I haven't touched on this in a while.  I'm gonna break it up in front and rear.
 
Some conclusions that I've been coming to...
Front:  Drop no more than 1" in front using springs...bump steer is affected.  May have to put a bump steer fix on if you do more....or....us a 2" drop spindle.     I dont know if Fatman is producing this anymore.   
 
Rear:  Same...1" drop using springs if you do more than it appears to me that the pinion angle will need adjustment.   I have not found any aftermarket upper control arms.   The Chevelle crowd has upper control arms that are adjustable....none found for Torinos.
 
I'm gonna put on a 1 1/2" splined sway bar in teh front.   I already installed the 7/8" in the rear.
 
I also plan on putting in a quick ratio steering box.   These are my plans for the near future.  I'm gonna drop the height using springs by 1" and install the sway bar.   Anymore it appears to me that to many changes will be required to adjust the stock suspension.  
 
Anyone know of any adjustable upper rear control arms for the our Torinos?
 
-John
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eliteman76 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-March-2012 at 12:27PM
Rear arms are and issue. With the 4 link design, upper adjustable arms are sort of out of the window due to the shape and way our rears are made.
The factory lowers are originally made with eccentric bushings to adjust the angle which, with aftermarket bushings, we lost the ability to adjust the pinion angle.

The Metco Arms, I would love to have a set of those, but it's more of a eye candy deal.
I'm not drag racing my car, so I can't justify the lower bracket kit.

I'd just as soon do a hot rods to hell truck arm kit like Mike did in his Montego before I start screwing with the geometry on the rear end to get ride of the wheel hop issues.
Andrew:GTS.ORG admin, '72 Q code 5 speed Restomod
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BackInBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-March-2012 at 1:28PM
I dont want to spend to much money learning I should have setup the suspension another way.   Truck arms would be nice but seem like an involved change.   I was looking for a more straight forward improvement...aiming to street use.  

I want to keep my GTS practical and fun for the street.   I'll prolly spent most of my time lighting up tires at stop lights anyway lol   Its all fun ;-)

I was toying with the fatman spindles, but a 2 1/2" drop might be to much for the street.   And the rear with a 2" drop...then I would have to do major surgery in the rear to fix that pinion angle.   This is probably why that Pure Vision car put in a Morrison rear clip.   

Has anyone used those Fatman spindles...lowered it 2"...and still have an oil pan?

I will have to replace my headers and may use oval exhaust pipe for clearance  (Dr. Gas exhaust for example)

-John
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BackInBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-April-2012 at 5:22AM
Bumping this thread...
 
On a few other threads I've been trading off between a rack-and-pinion setup Psquare suggested using the Cavalier quick ratio rack (2.5 L2L) vs a quick ratio Saginaw box frmo Lares Corp.   See the Rack and Pinion thread and the steering gear box thread.   The problem I potentially see with teh rack is that its travel I belive is around 6"....and suspect its less than the gear box travel which will impact the turning radius.
 
Aside from that I'm following that Crown Vic setup I posted in the beginning as a guide.   I put the Addco 7/8" bar in the rear (used OEM brackets..modded for new bushings).   I also bought a 1 3/8" solid splined bar for the front (1 1/4" ends).  I went with smaller end bar to use standard bushings and keep it low profile to fit.  I'm trying to figure out how to set it up on the front now.   Once thing I noticed si the trailing strut arms get in the way.  
 
I have a lot of fiddling around with the front bar to figure out how it can work.   This bar provides on the order of 576/in rate (12" arms) vs what I expect the stock bar to be <150lbs/in   Depending upon how this feels I may put in lower rate springs....to be continued.  
 
I'm planning on lowering the car 1".   Front rates will probably be good with the CVPI springs cut down and new 1" lower springs for the rear from Coil springs specialties (targeting 210-220lbs/in rate).
 
Rear arms...I think if you drop 2" or more you will have to adjust the pinion angle.   I was thinking a way to do this would be do something like what is found on the TCP kit.   Remove the upper arms and put in support like on this link...that mounts to the differential bolts.
See RCM Motorsports...Called the rear coil over kit.   Look at how the top arms are mounted to teh rear diff.
 
 
FYI...planning wheels/tires will be 17-18" 40/45 series  TBD
 
-John


Edited by BackInBlack - 03-April-2012 at 5:45AM
-John
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BackInBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-April-2012 at 6:27AM
Also, I learned that to setup the suspension properly you must first decide on ride height and the wheels/Tires as they affect the ride height.   I need to decide on tire size before going beyond changing the sway bars.
 
Just FYI...
-John
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SPLUHAR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-April-2012 at 6:47AM
On rack and pinon conversions, be sure that you use a rear steer r/p for a rear steer car (torino) and a front steer r/p for a front steer car (crown vic). 
1976 ELITE, 71 429 w/cam, quadrajet, 4 wheel Mark V disc brakes, 3.25 trac lok, gutted & 12.9'd Mustang steering box
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BackInBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-April-2012 at 6:53AM
Originally posted by SPLUHAR SPLUHAR wrote:

On rack and pinon conversions, be sure that you use a rear steer r/p for a rear steer car (torino) and a front steer r/p for a front steer car (crown vic). 
 
Yup...the 88-93 Chevy Cavalier Z24  is a rear steer rack.  What is nice about it is that it will connect up using a tie rod system instead of a direct connect rack to spindle.   It looks like a tight fit but should work.   The biggest expense is that my current headers would have to be replaced as a rack would interfere with them.
 
I'm still undecided on this....but I can move forward and worry about the steering later.   I'm prolly gonna stick with the box....these costs are racking up and I would like to spend the money elsewhere.
 
I think the biggest issue using a rack is the range of motion vs the old gear box. 


Edited by BackInBlack - 03-April-2012 at 6:58AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SPLUHAR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-April-2012 at 6:56AM
1976 ELITE, 71 429 w/cam, quadrajet, 4 wheel Mark V disc brakes, 3.25 trac lok, gutted & 12.9'd Mustang steering box
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SPLUHAR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-April-2012 at 7:16AM
Looking at the pics, seems like there will be bump-steer issues w/ cavalier r/p
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BackInBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-April-2012 at 9:39AM
Good explanation....good diagram.  Thanks.
So far this looks to me like about one of the best setups:
 
Uses easily replacable components, existing outter tie rods, etc.
 
Following this as a guide/model only a mount would be need to fabricate.   Maybe he is interested in doing a torino....


Edited by BackInBlack - 04-April-2012 at 1:01AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SPLUHAR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-April-2012 at 1:38AM
Price is rediculous
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BackInBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-April-2012 at 3:16AM

It is expensive...

Look at the pics.   Looking at how the rack is positioned...the parts used...etc.  I think it is a well laid out setup.    I wont buy it...to expensive.  
 
I think some ideas from it can be used to build something for our Torinos...
-John
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psquare75 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-April-2012 at 3:39AM
Agreed. I'd look into rethreading the OEM J body inner tie rods to fit the tie rod sleeves.
Paul
77 XR7 460/C6/3.00:1 *SOLD*
78 XR7 523/C6/3.5:1
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BackInBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-April-2012 at 3:42AM
Yup ...i was thinking the same...and reuse the standard ford OEM outer tie rod ends (if you dont need a bumpsteer kit)
 
The most money would be spent on the rack adn the u-joints for the column.   Some labor building a cradle support/brackets.
-John
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mkshelton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-April-2012 at 8:51AM
As to a comparison to all you guys are thinking about,
 
How about we talk a little bit about small modifications that would bring the stock steering/ suspension into the 20th century.
 
 
"Sometimes I wonder if I'm actually UNinventing the wheel"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mkshelton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-April-2012 at 8:52AM
But I do appreciate Bnblack work on this though.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BackInBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-April-2012 at 9:17AM
Originally posted by mkshelton mkshelton wrote:

As to a comparison to all you guys are thinking about,
 
How about we talk a little bit about small modifications that would bring the stock steering/ suspension into the 20th century.
 
 

The other steering option other than the rack-n-pinion is a quick ratio saginaw gearbox.   This leaves all the steering stock.   A saginaw power steering pump can be added as well.   The problem I run into is the brackets...which leads into a bracket set from March for a serpentine setup ( about $2k ouch).   Another I found is 
It is much better priced but doesn't have AC bracket



Can be ordered from this company PN 807 is a 10:1 quick ratio with 3 turns lock 2 lock.   This was what I was planning until this rack option was brought up.   I'm not sold either way...trying to weight the pros/cons of each.   The rack option is more work...headaches...but potentially yield better performance.   I need to find out the rack range of motion...that will have a significant impact on the turn radius.


Edited by BackInBlack - 04-April-2012 at 9:21AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SPLUHAR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-April-2012 at 10:14AM
When I'm done building my headers, I will be swapping in a saginaw steering box that I re-gutted with z28 quick ratio parts, as well as installing springs from an s10 blazer, front Bilstein circle track shocks for a camaro, re-drilling lower control arms inner pivot point, adding a bumpsteer outer tie rod to the 70 ltd inner tie rod that I got out of a junk yard, matching rear shocks (for a torino).  should be mid summer when its done.  Updates will be added.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psquare75 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-April-2012 at 10:51AM
March Pulley set? $2k? WTF? 

(BBF) get a Saginaw PS bracket from a full size... I have one on the bench ready to go, whenever I get back to my 78... someday. 

*or* get a bracket setup from an 80s E350 RV.. They use a Saginaw, as well as a Sanden A/C compressor.. 

I won't be able to measure that until next week. Need a helper.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BackInBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-April-2012 at 12:27PM
Originally posted by Psquare75 Psquare75 wrote:

March Pulley set? $2k? WTF? 

(BBF) get a Saginaw PS bracket from a full size... I have one on the bench ready to go, whenever I get back to my 78... someday. 

*or* get a bracket setup from an 80s E350 RV.. They use a Saginaw, as well as a Sanden A/C compressor.. 

I won't be able to measure that until next week. Need a helper.

I'm not having much luck finding these parts.   Saginaw brackets so far are really hard to come by.   I didn't think a BBF bracket would fit on a 351C...can they?

Yeah...Concept One, March, those nice pulleys setup (you get alt, compressor, ps pump, with it) are nice and expensive.   Frankly I dont look at the engine that much to appreciate them.   I'm good with chassis black paint so long as it works well.

I'm thinking of loosing the cleveland and putting in a 351W so I can use the pulleys, EFI, EDIS from late model stuff.   Tired of getting gouged from these aftermarket vendors.   I would love to keep the cleveland, but trying to add late model improvements is getting ridiculous.   I joined a local club...I'm hoping I can make some contacts to help point me to the right local yards.

Sorry ...didn't mean to hijack this thread....back to the discussion.   

Psquare,  What is the travel on that Cavalier rack you have ?
"I won't be able to measure that until next week. Need a helper."  Is that the response to the travel question?   Lost me on that...




Edited by BackInBlack - 04-April-2012 at 12:28PM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BackInBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-April-2012 at 12:30PM
Originally posted by SPLUHAR SPLUHAR wrote:

When I'm done building my headers, I will be swapping in a saginaw steering box that I re-gutted with z28 quick ratio parts, as well as installing springs from an s10 blazer, front Bilstein circle track shocks for a camaro, re-drilling lower control arms inner pivot point, adding a bumpsteer outer tie rod to the 70 ltd inner tie rod that I got out of a junk yard, matching rear shocks (for a torino).  should be mid summer when its done.  Updates will be added.

Sounds nice...similar build up to what I was thinking.  

Redrilling lower arms?   Front arms?  Can you explain what your doing there?

Thanks,
John
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psquare75 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-April-2012 at 3:01PM
Originally posted by BackInBlack BackInBlack wrote:

  


I'm not having much luck finding these parts.   Saginaw brackets so far are really hard to come by.   I didn't think a BBF bracket would fit on a 351C...can they?

 

Ebay! 

Originally posted by BackInBlack BackInBlack wrote:

 
Psquare,  What is the travel on that Cavalier rack you have ?
"I won't be able to measure that until next week. Need a helper."  Is that the response to the travel question?   Lost me on that...



Yes, in reference to the rack travel. 


Edited by Psquare75 - 04-April-2012 at 3:01PM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BackInBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-April-2012 at 1:46AM
Any use this part??

Converts a FORD OEM power steering bracket to use saginaw pumps.


Probably for a 351W but I dont see how it would be different vs a 351C if it converts the mounting points from the Thompson pump to a Saginaw pump.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psquare75 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-April-2012 at 3:47AM
Huh.. Never even seen that before.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SPLUHAR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-April-2012 at 6:33AM
The front lower control arm is thru-bolted to the cross member @ it's inner pivot.  I will be attempting to re-drill a new hole (holes) at least 1 3/8" higher on the cross member, and possible some amount towards the outside of the car.  It really depends on how the control arms will clear the motor mount bolts.  This mod will help (alot) with the positive camber gain on the outside front tire (and negative gain on the inside tire) when the car leans in a curve.
 
on the rear lower control arms, I'm going to cut the lower brackets off of another axle and weld/reinforce them onto the bottoms of the existing brackets, moving the back-end of the lower control arms down 2" (hok-i-fied south-side machine mod - improves instant center location, aids in traction)


Edited by SPLUHAR - 05-April-2012 at 6:35AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psquare75 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-April-2012 at 6:41AM
Wouldn't ball joint spacers on the upper control arm be easier and less stressful on the lower control arm bars?



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SPLUHAR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-April-2012 at 7:10AM
It looks like a ball joint spacer isnt going to change where the ball joint pivot point is, it's changing the angle of the upper arm.  An imaginary line drawn from the inner pivot to the outer pivot would not change, and neither would the roll center, nor the camber gain.
 
can't find the balljoint spacer that's mentioned in your link, only ones like this:
 
used for a raised vehicle so that upper control arm doesnt bottom out on frame.
 
I've looked for a "tall" balljoint, but havent been able to find one in the correct taper.
 
the closest i came was 22308, 4 bolt upper:
 
 


Edited by SPLUHAR - 05-April-2012 at 7:29AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eliteman76 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-April-2012 at 7:29AM
Random interjection: Found something while digging on the TCP rod bushings. Something I considered 4-5 years ago wanting to do but never did.
 
 
Some mention of the Team Guts 1972 GTS {the one that is now currently residing in Europe, that was run in the Gumball 3000 rally back in 2002-2003}
 
Also, back to the immediate subject with spacers, I don't see that being of benefit.
You might as well do this:
 
 
 
Wait, no, sorry, wrong shot LOL
 


Edited by Eliteman76 - 05-April-2012 at 7:29AM
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