Old Cleveland wants to rock |
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Ross6860
New Member Joined: 03-October-2012 Location: Ohio Status: Offline Points: 35 |
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Posted: 16-October-2012 at 11:52AM |
OK, you really got me interested. $5k for a 450hp stroker, including the donor motor? That's right about what I figure for parts and machine work doing the assembly myself and supplying the block and heads. Roller cam or flat tappet? What kind of power range do you have (when are you "on the cam")? Max rpm? When does it start to pull strong? Mind PMing me your builders info? This is exactly what I'm looking for as long as I don't need to run a 3500 stall converter and 4.11 gears with it. I'll save myself the trouble of re-inventing the wheel. Look forward to your response.
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1974 Gran Torino
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Rockatansky
Senior Member Joined: 30-July-2010 Location: On The Road Status: Offline Points: 6072 |
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i'd reserve the DEH cams for applications where the exhaust side needs a crutch, like with the 1975 & up D% heads that have the choked exhaust port, or an app that needs a full length X system restrictive quiet mufflers. the early 2V heads have really good intake/exhaust flow ratio w/o porting, single pattern cams do run really well with them if you do choose a DEH from any manufacturer, watch the overlap. too much overlap will dog out a Cleveland faster than a drunk chevy guy at the local dirt track. Cleveland heads, with their large valves/cubic inch ratio can get into 'overlap trouble' quick because the large valves work so well in the overlap period while both valves are open at the end of the exhaust stroke & the beginning of the intake stroke. because of the valve size and the canted configuration helping the Cleveland breathe better than any comparable size engine, overlap needs to be kept in check... because the heads work so darn good! the factory iron 4V heads don't have quite as good an intake/exhaust flow ratio, but single pattern cams still work gangbusters with 4V's too. look to the exhaust system vs overlap when choosing between a single/dual pattern cam with the Cleveland & 429/460 255DEH has 40* overlap, VERY little 265DEH has 55* overlap, very good for street perf, about the limit, may want a little converter? 275DEH has 60* overlap, maybe a hair too much, gonna want a converter & gears for reference the 268H has 48* overlap, and i can tell you it WORKS in an otherwise bone stock 351C-2V / FMX & 2.75 with cast manifolds. it also stayed in the block when i swapped over to 4V Closed Chamber heads @ 10.25:1 and it still worked bigtime here's a chart Luc John & his 16 year old daughter(Hahaha) worked up to show how overlap changes with Duration & Lobe Separation Angle |
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72 GT Ute
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occupant
Senior Member Joined: 23-October-2006 Location: Lawton, OK Status: Offline Points: 1973 |
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The F351 is a fine intake, it's what is on my car and it will be staying when I go TBI and even if I go full MPFI I'll drill it. It fits good, it's not too heavy, it's just what the factory intake should have been IMO.
I also want to take a moment and really recommend the Dual Energy line at Comp Cam. 255/265/275 DEH and they are great for trucks and heavier cars like the Torinos. If you're not going to spend a lot of time above 5000-5500rpm why bother with a wild cam. A dual pattern cam gives you the best of both worlds, lots of breathing room up high and gobs of torque down low. I know the cam in my 351C is an Erson RV cam of some kind and it's OK, but I want a 265DEH in here as soon as I am ready to do a cam swap. http://www.compperformancegroupstores.com/store/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=CC&Category_Code=F351HFTCDE 255 is the RV cam, 265 the midrange, 275 honestly should be more cam than most people need but if you want a rougher idle it has it. Edited by occupant - 04-October-2012 at 3:19AM |
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08 Uplander LS, 262K, broken again
08 Explorer EB, 195K, for the wife still looking for another something |
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smhj
Senior Member Joined: 01-November-2011 Location: erie pa Status: Offline Points: 266 |
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I think maybe a wrote it wrong. I have $3000.00 to spend on the motor. Not up to $3000.00 spent already.
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73MONTEGO
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72GTS351CJ
Senior Member Joined: 30-November-2010 Location: NY Status: Offline Points: 1481 |
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I spent 5k delivere to my door and he supplied the engine.It sounds like what you want. 351c stroked,Aussie heads,roller rockers,air gap,540 lift and 10-1....450hp ,pump gas. I've had 1000 trouble free miles so far... Rick
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72GTS Clint Eastwood Special
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Rockatansky
Senior Member Joined: 30-July-2010 Location: On The Road Status: Offline Points: 6072 |
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yeah there's no cheap way to get there. doing it today from scratch i'd probably use bolt on pedestal style roller rockers...
-----vs-----
studs, rockers, adjuster locks, guide plates, hardened pushrods, machining costs and the possibility of the machining being off
unless you're gonna go pretty crazy on the cam lift & spring pressure the 5/16" hold down bolt is good for most cams. look at Scorpion, or Yella Terra if you hit the lotto
another direction is the Crane conversion kit that allows you to use 7/16" stud mounted rockers w/o machining the pedestals, so you have the Crane kit, rockers & adjuster locks.
and figure on a pedestal shim kit to set lifter preload |
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72 GT Ute
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smhj
Senior Member Joined: 01-November-2011 Location: erie pa Status: Offline Points: 266 |
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Nothing was set yet. Waiting for all this options. The only thing the guy really said so far was about getting a rebuild kit. He suggested keeping the pedestal rockers the same. I asked him to give me a list of everything so I can make some choices. I'm up to $3000.00 now for the motor. What would your parts all beif it was you having rebuilt?
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73MONTEGO
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Rockatansky
Senior Member Joined: 30-July-2010 Location: On The Road Status: Offline Points: 6072 |
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that changes the cam selection quite a bit, with those changes you're into the range where you can get something a lot sportier. are you figuring on a hydraulic flat tappet to use with the stock non-adjustable pedestal style rockers?
did you have the heads done up for screw in studs?
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72 GT Ute
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smhj
Senior Member Joined: 01-November-2011 Location: erie pa Status: Offline Points: 266 |
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Probably going for a 10" converter and 3.7. I would like to go with headers for a good price. Anything else to keep in mine? Thanks for all the help and information.
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73MONTEGO
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Rockatansky
Senior Member Joined: 30-July-2010 Location: On The Road Status: Offline Points: 6072 |
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here's a screemin deel i just saw,
Crane 272 H hydraulic cam set comes with lifters brand new $125 Now $100
here's the link to the Crane page, not sure if that cam is the H10 or the -2 but from the ad saying 272H i'd think it's the 272H-10 ? either one would be fine for your app but i like the H10 a little better
otherwise there's a chitload of cams to pick from that'll work, still sticking with the 3.25 & stock converter? headers or stock manifolds?
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72 GT Ute
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smhj
Senior Member Joined: 01-November-2011 Location: erie pa Status: Offline Points: 266 |
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That's what I for got to ask about. He just said I little better than stock. What would you use?
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73MONTEGO
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Rockatansky
Senior Member Joined: 30-July-2010 Location: On The Road Status: Offline Points: 6072 |
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i'd say the Air Gap and Performer intake have more than 'very little difference'
the Air Gap has no exhaust heat cross-over passage to warm the carb, intake & air fuel mixture. if you plan to use the car into the cooler months this can be a problem. or not. to my surprise the Air Gap comes very highly rated among users, even with it's 2V porting on 4V heads it's at the top of the list. it's a little more of a serious performance piece
the Performer is ancient tech but it holds it's own for what it is. i always thought of it as a light weight alternative to the stock 2bbl mainfold but a guy posted that in back to back tests at the strip, the Performer's times didn't drop off hardly at all to even the Strip Dominator on that particular car. the Performer has carb heat and is a year-round intake, as i mentioned before the F351 is the previous version and works about the same. the Performer & F351 have very little difference
now what about a cam?
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72 GT Ute
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smhj
Senior Member Joined: 01-November-2011 Location: erie pa Status: Offline Points: 266 |
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The motor build is a little out of my comfort level so I took it to the pros. I do have some question thu. Not looking for a racing engine just a good fun weekend car. They are doing the normal hardening of the seats and such but what for cam and intake should I have them put in? Going to be a 4 barrel carb. They are saying that the Air Gap and Performer intake have very little diffrence. So now I'm asking the other pros. Anything else I should be sure to ask for?
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73MONTEGO
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Rockatansky
Senior Member Joined: 30-July-2010 Location: On The Road Status: Offline Points: 6072 |
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just came across this ad, carb & intake for 200
just re-checked & it's 4V, but may actually be better than a 2V intake because the ports on both are smaller than the the heads, the 4V ports are about the same size as the 2V head
and a 2V intake for 100
all kinds of stuff
Edited by Rockatansky - 29-January-2012 at 9:06AM |
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72 GT Ute
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Rockatansky
Senior Member Joined: 30-July-2010 Location: On The Road Status: Offline Points: 6072 |
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72 GT Ute
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antlerfiend
Senior Member Joined: 14-June-2010 Location: Louisville,KY Status: Offline Points: 3023 |
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I hate those GM HEI distributers. I chucked the one that came with my Cleveland and installed the old single point distributer til I can afford a decent electronic one.
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Alex
72 GTS (Morgan's Baby) 68 CJ Drag Car Clone 65 Mustang (first car) 77 LTD II (Drag Car) 78 Mustang II V6 4 speed |
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smhj
Senior Member Joined: 01-November-2011 Location: erie pa Status: Offline Points: 266 |
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Here are some pics. Lot of them are just so I don't forget some things. Bud light and PB blaster in alot of pics. http://s1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd498/smhj/
I will be taking my time to get it done right. I already have some stuff. Energysuspension kit. Carpet,headliner,fuelpump.Ball joints. Hoping by end of next year it will done. Two big things that I need are the rear floor pans and rad. core support. Maybe something will come up before I need them.
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73MONTEGO
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Rockatansky
Senior Member Joined: 30-July-2010 Location: On The Road Status: Offline Points: 6072 |
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that should cover gaskets, oil & incidentals
you could do what 'needs to be done' in the bottom end now and wait for more $ to do the top end stuff that you don't have to pull the motor for later Edited by Rockatansky - 28-January-2012 at 11:49AM |
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72 GT Ute
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72GTS351CJ
Senior Member Joined: 30-November-2010 Location: NY Status: Offline Points: 1481 |
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I was in the same boat as you. Undecided how to get more power for not that much money. I was going to pull the motor because the pan was dented and maybe change the cam and put a sst of headers on. It just snowballs. If the engine is out how do you not freshen up the bottom end,change the oil pump,the cluch,,water pump and everything else. I think its alot more money but if your keeping the car its money well spent. So it takes a little longer. Take your time and do it right. That's where im at .That's just my way of thinking. Good luck on the project. Love to see the pics... Rick
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72GTS Clint Eastwood Special
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smhj
Senior Member Joined: 01-November-2011 Location: erie pa Status: Offline Points: 266 |
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About $208. Thank you Rockatansky. Pulling the engine and trans next month.
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73MONTEGO
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Rockatansky
Senior Member Joined: 30-July-2010 Location: On The Road Status: Offline Points: 6072 |
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dual plane intake, if you miss this one there will be more
this one's a tad high
Holley 600 with Ford kickdown
Hughes converter
Comp 265DEH kit
electronic distributor conversion kits, besides colors they look the same to me
new balancer for safety
how much $$$ left for a dizzy cap, wires & plugs ?
Edited by Rockatansky - 25-January-2012 at 10:23PM |
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72 GT Ute
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73 GT Sport 429
Senior Member Joined: 25-October-2010 Location: TarponSpringsFL Status: Offline Points: 277 |
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Steel wool may work on aluminun heads, but not on cast iron. |
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Mark
original owner-93 Lightning 73 Gran Torino Sport 429 (prodigal son) |
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ilyes
Senior Member Joined: 09-January-2010 Location: Philadelphia PA Status: Offline Points: 3782 |
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I had a cheap one and it was enough to do VA NY and lots of driving in NY too. I changed the module as I bought one in VA before the trip. Someone here broke it after 50 miles or so
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Rockatansky
Senior Member Joined: 30-July-2010 Location: On The Road Status: Offline Points: 6072 |
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most of the 'economical' ones have inferior modules in them that work for about 1 hour
some comments say the assy lube used caused the shaft and advance mechanism to bind up
some are made too low and interfere with the intake manifold, one install i saw the guy had to grind the intake and the distributor just to get it to drop in at all... in the wrong spot
and they're too big to fit a standard air cleaner, maybe with an offset base?
Edited by Rockatansky - 23-January-2012 at 11:12PM |
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72 GT Ute
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ilyes
Senior Member Joined: 09-January-2010 Location: Philadelphia PA Status: Offline Points: 3782 |
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air cleaner clearance becomes an issue with those HEI
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smhj
Senior Member Joined: 01-November-2011 Location: erie pa Status: Offline Points: 266 |
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What about these? HEI IGNITION DISTRIBUTOR **FITS FORD 351C 351M 400-460That easy to polishing heads. I thought you had to send them out. Learning everyday |
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73MONTEGO
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ZCowher
Senior Member Joined: 20-March-2011 Location: New Castle, PA Status: Offline Points: 512 |
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Polishing heads is easy and costs next to nothing to do. When you have the heads off and all apart I mean valves out of it and everything, get some Steel wool and got to town on the exhaust ports, make the nice smooth. Let's the exhaust flow freer and it's that little less that engine needs to work to push out the exhaust gas. Don't do that to the intake though that little bit of roughness still helps to better mix your fuel air mixture. It will take a little while to do but all it costs it the $4 for the steel wool and elbow grease.
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ZC
2016 F-150 xl 2.7 liter 73 Gran Torino Formal roof, Ten damn years, and its almost there. |
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Rockatansky
Senior Member Joined: 30-July-2010 Location: On The Road Status: Offline Points: 6072 |
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contact points distributor is what came stock in 1973
for the the price of a couple sets of points &/or a dwell meter to set them correctly, you can upgrade to an electronic module that installs in place of the points
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72 GT Ute
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smhj
Senior Member Joined: 01-November-2011 Location: erie pa Status: Offline Points: 266 |
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Thanks guys. Running points in a dizzy? Whats that mean? Get rid of them? Polishing the heads no idea how. Maybe run them down to you since you're only down the road.
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73MONTEGO
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ZCowher
Senior Member Joined: 20-March-2011 Location: New Castle, PA Status: Offline Points: 512 |
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you could always polish the heads and cam it to. if you do them your self it shouldnt cost to much just make sure you do your homework first.
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ZC
2016 F-150 xl 2.7 liter 73 Gran Torino Formal roof, Ten damn years, and its almost there. |
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