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Old Cleveland wants to rock

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smhj View Drop Down
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    Posted: 23-December-2011 at 6:08AM
Have $1500.00 to spend on the ol 351 2v. Thinking of Edlbrock intake 4 barrel Holly and headers.
It already has dual exhaust. The old owner thinks the owner before that had it borded out .03. Has 97000 miles just don't want to put the wrong stuff on it. Has a c6 /3.25 open. Going to be a weekend car with as much pep as I can get for 1500. Any suggestions on what to do or not do?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-December-2011 at 11:48PM
how does it run now, can you do a compression or better a leakdown test?
 
any idea what cam is in it?
 
how many miles do you think it has on it since it was last 'freshed' ?
 
73 Montego, running points in the dizzy?  
 
don't get stuck thinking 'engine only' here, the entire combo is what makes excitement. for a true weekend car you'll want more gear, at least 3.7 maybe 3.9 and i sure wouldn't pass up a deal on a 4.11 chunk that's ready to plug in. used rear chunks can be risky, it's hard to tell if a Trac-Loc unit is whipped out or if the gear is gonna scream like a banshee until you drive it, and they're usually not too cheap either especially when you have to fix it or pay twice. the 3.25 isn't toooo bad but more is better
 
then there's the torque converter, stock sucks. i have a 12" 'stall' converter that disappointed in a big way, couldn't tell it from a stock converter but it probably wasn't anywhere near what i needed to let my combo at the time run free. that's why i'm stressing to make sure you get enough converter for the job. don't settle for wishywashy salesman BS 'Oh yeah it'll be around 2200' my butt. look for a 10" diameter converter with at least 2500 rpm stall, a 12" converter just isn't gonna stall up
 
if you do go into the engine, regardless of 'fresh time' i'd figure on a decent timing set, cam, lifters, drop the oil pan and clean or replace the oil screen... then there's those stock valves (very bad) 
 
if you're not going into the engine just yet and it's running OK i would still check the valve stem seals for hardness or cracking / breaking up. if you start romping an older engine and the seals come apart, they clog the oil returns from the heads, clog the oil screen and destroy an otherwise good engine for the cost of a $5 set of seals, a short length of nylon rope, rental tool and maybe valve cover gaskets (been there done that)... then there's those stock valves (been there done that too)  
 
Edelbrock intake, which one? guys are saying the new Airgap manifold is worth the money, i don't think i'd pay new for an older style Performer, and there's the F351 that predates it. both older intakes come in 2V & 4V so make sure you know which one you're getting & get the right one, the Airgap is only 2V
 
4bbl Holley, again which one? are you going to need/want an automatic choke or will it be a summer only car, i hear PA gets kinda chilly. with a 2V not very radical Cleveland and auto trans i'd stick with a vacuum secondary carb
 
headers are getting hard to find, i waited too long to glom onto the headers i wanted and now they're discontinued and Hooker has just recently quit making headers for anything but 302's in our cars unless you can find old stock. hopefully FPA will keep making some, again not cheap
 
but i'll tell ya, i had a blast in my old 73 2V with stock manifolds and glasspacks


Edited by Rockatansky - 27-December-2011 at 11:50PM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZCowher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-December-2011 at 8:20PM
you could always polish the heads and cam it to. if you do them your self it shouldnt cost to much just make sure you do your homework first.
ZC
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smhj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-January-2012 at 10:05AM
Thanks guys. Running points in a dizzy? Whats that mean? Get rid of them? Polishing the heads no idea how. Maybe run them down to you since you're only down the road.
73MONTEGO
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-January-2012 at 7:36AM
contact points distributor is what came stock in 1973
 
for the the price of a couple sets of points &/or a dwell meter to set them correctly, you can upgrade to an electronic module that installs in place of the points 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZCowher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-January-2012 at 3:57AM
Polishing heads is easy and costs next to nothing to do. When you have the heads off and all apart I mean valves out of it and everything, get some Steel wool and got to town on the exhaust ports, make the nice smooth. Let's the exhaust flow freer and it's that little less that engine needs to work to push out the exhaust gas. Don't do that to the intake though that little bit of roughness still helps to better mix your fuel air mixture. It will take a little while to do but all it costs it the $4 for the steel wool and elbow grease.
ZC
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smhj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-January-2012 at 11:58AM

What about these?

HEI IGNITION DISTRIBUTOR **FITS FORD 351C 351M 400-460

That easy to polishing heads. I thought you had to send them out. Learning everyday

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ilyes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-January-2012 at 12:10PM
air cleaner clearance becomes an issue with those HEI
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-January-2012 at 10:52PM
Originally posted by smhj smhj wrote:

What about these?

HEI IGNITION DISTRIBUTOR **FITS FORD 351C 351M 400-460

 
most of the 'economical' ones have inferior modules in them that work for about 1 hour
some comments say the assy lube used caused the shaft and advance mechanism to bind up
some are made too low and interfere with the intake manifold, one install i saw the guy had to grind the intake and the distributor just to get it to drop in at all... in the wrong spot
 
 
and they're too big to fit a standard air cleaner, maybe with an offset base?
 
 


Edited by Rockatansky - 23-January-2012 at 11:12PM
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ilyes View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ilyes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-January-2012 at 1:01AM
I had a cheap one and it was enough to do VA NY and lots of driving in NY too. I changed the module as I bought one in VA before the trip. Someone here broke it after 50 miles or so
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 73 GT Sport 429 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-January-2012 at 3:32PM
Originally posted by ZCowher ZCowher wrote:

Polishing heads is easy and costs next to nothing to do. When you have the heads off and all apart I mean valves out of it and everything, get some Steel wool and got to town on the exhaust ports, make the nice smooth. Let's the exhaust flow freer and it's that little less that engine needs to work to push out the exhaust gas. Don't do that to the intake though that little bit of roughness still helps to better mix your fuel air mixture. It will take a little while to do but all it costs it the $4 for the steel wool and elbow grease.


Steel wool may work on aluminun heads, but not on cast iron.
Mark

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-January-2012 at 10:19PM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smhj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-January-2012 at 9:30AM
About $208.  Thank you Rockatansky. Pulling the engine and trans next month.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72GTS351CJ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-January-2012 at 10:27AM
I was in the same boat as you. Undecided how to get more power for not that much money. I was going to pull the motor because the pan was dented and maybe change the cam and put a sst of headers on. It just snowballs. If the engine is out how do you not freshen up the bottom end,change the oil pump,the cluch,,water pump and everything else. I think its alot more money but if your keeping the car its money well spent. So it takes a little longer. Take your time and do it right. That's where im at .That's just my way of thinking. Good luck on the project. Love to see the pics... Rick
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-January-2012 at 11:47AM
that should cover gaskets, oil & incidentals
 
you could do what 'needs to be done' in the bottom end now and wait for more $ to do the top end stuff that you don't have to pull the motor for later


Edited by Rockatansky - 28-January-2012 at 11:49AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smhj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-January-2012 at 12:14AM
Here are some pics. Lot of them are just so I don't forget some things. Bud light and PB blaster in alot of pics. http://s1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd498/smhj/
I will be taking my time to get it done right. I already have some stuff. Energysuspension kit. Carpet,headliner,fuelpump.Ball joints. Hoping by end of next year it will done. Two big things that I need are the rear floor pans and rad. core support. Maybe something will come up before I need them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote antlerfiend Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-January-2012 at 3:53AM
I hate those GM HEI distributers. I chucked the one that came with my Cleveland and installed the old single point distributer til I can afford a decent electronic one.
Alex
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-January-2012 at 6:55AM
Originally posted by antlerfiend antlerfiend wrote:

I hate those GM HEI distributers. I chucked the one that came with my Cleveland and installed the old single point distributer til I can afford a decent electronic one.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-January-2012 at 9:01AM
just came across this ad, carb & intake for 200
 
 
just re-checked & it's 4V, but may actually be better than a 2V intake because the ports on both are smaller than the the heads, the 4V ports are about the same size as the 2V head
 
and a 2V intake for 100
 
all kinds of stuff


Edited by Rockatansky - 29-January-2012 at 9:06AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smhj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-October-2012 at 11:46PM
The motor build is a little out of my comfort level so I took it to the pros. I do have some question thu. Not looking for a racing engine just a good fun weekend car. They are doing the normal hardening of the seats and such but what for cam and intake should I have them put in? Going to be a 4 barrel carb. They are saying that the Air Gap and Performer intake have very little diffrence. So now I'm asking the other pros. Anything else I should be sure to ask for?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-October-2012 at 4:06AM
i'd say the Air Gap and Performer intake have more than 'very little difference'
 
the Air Gap has no exhaust heat cross-over passage to warm the carb, intake & air fuel mixture. if you plan to use the car into the cooler months this can be a problem. or not. to my surprise the Air Gap comes very highly rated among users, even with it's 2V porting on 4V heads it's at the top of the list. it's a little more of a serious performance piece
 
the Performer is ancient tech but it holds it's own for what it is. i always thought of it as a light weight alternative to the stock 2bbl mainfold but a guy posted that in back to back tests at the strip, the Performer's times didn't drop off hardly at all to even the Strip Dominator on that particular car. the Performer has carb heat and is a year-round intake, as i mentioned before the F351 is the previous version and works about the same. the Performer & F351 have very little difference
 
now what about a cam?  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smhj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-October-2012 at 5:04AM
That's what I for got to ask about. He just said I little better than stock. What would you use?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-October-2012 at 6:11AM
here's a screemin deel i just saw,
Crane 272 H hydraulic cam set comes with lifters brand new $125 Now $100
 
 
here's the link to the Crane page, not sure if that cam is the H10 or the -2 but from the ad saying 272H i'd think it's the 272H-10 ? either one would be fine for your app but i like the H10 a little better
 
otherwise there's a chitload of cams to pick from that'll work, still sticking with the 3.25 & stock converter? headers or stock manifolds?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smhj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-October-2012 at 6:40AM
Probably going for a 10" converter and 3.7. I would like to go with headers for a good price. Anything else to keep in mine? Thanks for all the help and information.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-October-2012 at 7:27AM
that changes the cam selection quite a bit, with those changes you're into the range where you can get something a lot sportier. are you figuring on a hydraulic flat tappet to use with the stock non-adjustable pedestal style rockers?
 
did you have the heads done up for screw in studs?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smhj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-October-2012 at 7:51AM
Originally posted by Rockatansky Rockatansky wrote:

that changes the cam selection quite a bit, with those changes you're into the range where you can get something a lot sportier. are you figuring on a hydraulic flat tappet to use with the stock non-adjustable pedestal style rockers?
 
did you have the heads done up for screw in studs?
 
Nothing was set yet. Waiting for all this options. The only thing the guy really said so far was about getting a rebuild kit. He suggested keeping the pedestal rockers the same. I asked him to give me a list of everything so I can make some choices. I'm up to $3000.00 now for the motor. What would your parts all beif it was you having rebuilt?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-October-2012 at 8:40AM
yeah there's no cheap way to get there. doing it today from scratch i'd probably use bolt on pedestal style roller rockers...
 
-----vs-----
 
studs, rockers, adjuster locks, guide plates, hardened pushrods, machining costs and the possibility of the machining being off
 
unless you're gonna go pretty crazy on the cam lift & spring pressure the 5/16" hold down bolt is good for most cams. look at Scorpion, or Yella Terra if you hit the lotto
 
another direction is the Crane conversion kit that allows you to use 7/16" stud mounted rockers w/o machining the pedestals, so you have the Crane kit, rockers & adjuster locks.
 
 
and figure on a pedestal shim kit to set lifter preload
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72GTS351CJ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-October-2012 at 11:39AM
I spent 5k delivere to my door and he supplied the engine.It sounds like what you want. 351c stroked,Aussie heads,roller rockers,air gap,540 lift and 10-1....450hp ,pump gas. I've had 1000 trouble free miles so far... Rick
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smhj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-October-2012 at 10:24PM
I think maybe a wrote it wrong. I have $3000.00 to spend on the motor. Not up to $3000.00 spent already.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote occupant Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-October-2012 at 3:14AM
The F351 is a fine intake, it's what is on my car and it will be staying when I go TBI and even if I go full MPFI I'll drill it. It fits good, it's not too heavy, it's just what the factory intake should have been IMO.

I also want to take a moment and really recommend the Dual Energy line at Comp Cam. 255/265/275 DEH and they are great for trucks and heavier cars like the Torinos. If you're not going to spend a lot of time above 5000-5500rpm why bother with a wild cam. A dual pattern cam gives you the best of both worlds, lots of breathing room up high and gobs of torque down low.

I know the cam in my 351C is an Erson RV cam of some kind and it's OK, but I want a 265DEH in here as soon as I am ready to do a cam swap.

http://www.compperformancegroupstores.com/store/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=CC&Category_Code=F351HFTCDE

255 is the RV cam, 265 the midrange, 275 honestly should be more cam than most people need but if you want a rougher idle it has it.

Edited by occupant - 04-October-2012 at 3:19AM
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