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Fuel issue overnight

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unlovedford View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote unlovedford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Fuel issue overnight
    Posted: 25-October-2016 at 1:37PM
The 460 in my '72 runs well, but every night the fuel disappears from the carb and fuel line (I think). Takes 6 to 8 periods of cranking to even get a sputter out of it. Once I get the sputter, usually 3 or 4 more cranks and it will fire off. No puddles underneath, no evidence of leaks anywhere, no serious gas smell. It is not flooding, just not getting fuel until the bowls fill. Any ideas?

I am going to get a new pump to see if there might be a small pinhole that could cause a pressure loss. If that makes no difference, I may be looking at a new carb. Current one is a Carter (Edelbrock), pump is only a few years old with maybe 10K miles.

Suggestions would be appreciated.
Joe
1972 GTSquire Wagon
1972 Torino Wagon
1976 Torino (2)       
1968 Cougar XR7-First batch
1972 Torino 460
1989 BroncoII/Jeeps/Titanimous

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californiajohnny View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-October-2016 at 2:52PM
sounds like the check valve inside the pump is leaking back, but you'd think the carb would still hold some gas in the float bowl, at least enough to fire up for a few seconds? by then the pump should catch up ???????
JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE
74 CORVETTE COUPE CUSTOM
90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED
77 CELICA CUSTOM
75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED
79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED
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aquartlow View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aquartlow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-October-2016 at 3:24PM
Joe,
 You may want to try a phenolic spacer between the carb and intake, to reduce engine temp heat soak of carburetor. This heat soak could cause the fuel to boil within the bowl and basically evaporate. This same heat soak condition can cause a vapor lock type of issue within the fuel line supplying the carb and actually push the fuel back toward the fuel pump/tank. In addition to the spacer, an aluminum heat shield(something similar to this)
Image result for carb heat shield
 could also be used between the carb/intake to keep engine temps away from the fuel bowls. The biggest contributor for this condition is the heated crossover passage in the manifold just below the carb. Good luck.  
www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires.

No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t.

Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone.
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californiajohnny View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-October-2016 at 6:41PM
yes! todd has a good point there! i have plastic phenolic spacers on all my cars except one ...the vega and that one boils over bad after you shut it off and go to restart it a half hour or so later!!!

 here's the ones i'm using:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-2-PORTED-PHENOLIC-CARBURETOR-SPACER-4BBL-FITS-HOLLEY-SB-CHEVY-FORD-SBC-BBC-BB-/180915455947?hash=item2a1f66c7cb:m:mTVzXowYeSIQyf94vLrulzQ&vxp=mtr

1/2" PORTED PHENOLIC CARBURETOR SPACER 4BBL FITS HOLLEY SB CHEVY FORD SBC BBC BB
JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE
74 CORVETTE COUPE CUSTOM
90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED
77 CELICA CUSTOM
75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED
79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED
75 VEGA V6 5 SPD
70 CHEV C10 P/U
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n2fordwagons View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote n2fordwagons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-October-2016 at 12:32AM
I've always had a similar issue with my wagon, since I bought it.  Any time the engine is cold, it takes well more than 6 to 8 cycles of cranking before it will start.  Following for suggestions...
Jeff

76 Mercury Montego MX Villager w/ 460
79 Ford Thunderbird w/ T-tops
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unlovedford View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote unlovedford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-October-2016 at 4:14AM
Oddly, this just started after we installed the cam setup. All the guys at the Moonshine Festival witnessed it firsthand. Without a seriously strong battery, there is no way this car would start in the mornings due to the extended periods of cranking. A high-torque starter is going on next to help it out and I'll install this starter on the Squire since it works well.

I will try the spacer, but space under the hood is at a premium. When I say that, I mean the case almost or does touch the bottom of the Sport hood - and I am using a drop case. I really want to rectify this, as I just love driving the car (even without a gas gauge/speedometer/tach, LOL).
Joe
1972 GTSquire Wagon
1972 Torino Wagon
1976 Torino (2)       
1968 Cougar XR7-First batch
1972 Torino 460
1989 BroncoII/Jeeps/Titanimous

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lynchster View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lynchster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-October-2016 at 5:13AM
Whats the oil smell like? The 76 I had back on the eighties leaked into the crankcase. Good fun.
Chuck
72 Gran Torino Sport
91 F-150
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Bird Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-October-2016 at 7:37AM
Is your fuel tank venting thru the charcoal canister correctly? I had plugged the canister hose with a bolt, and it would do this. Best guess was the fuel tank sucking air back thru carb and draining the bowl (Edelbrock 1406) and fuel line. Took the bolt out and fixed the hose to the canister, no more problems...so far.
While it was plugged, it would also "burp" and shut off the gas pump when fueling. Fixed the hose to stop that and the hard/dry start issue went away as a bonus.


Edited by Big Bird - 26-October-2016 at 7:39AM
The above post should be read in a "Grumpy Old Man" voice.
Almost forgot: "Get off my lawn!!!"
Randy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aquartlow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-October-2016 at 12:22PM
Originally posted by unlovedford unlovedford wrote:

Oddly, this just started after we installed the cam setup. All the guys at the Moonshine Festival witnessed it firsthand. Without a seriously strong battery, there is no way this car would start in the mornings due to the extended periods of cranking. A high-torque starter is going on next to help it out and I'll install this starter on the Squire since it works well.

I will try the spacer, but space under the hood is at a premium. When I say that, I mean the case almost or does touch the bottom of the Sport hood - and I am using a drop case. I really want to rectify this, as I just love driving the car (even without a gas gauge/speedometer/tach, LOL).
 
Joe,
  They do make these spacers in 1/2" sizes, just picked one up at the last swap meet I attended, may help with clearance issues. As far as starter, one for a '92-'96 F250/F350 with 460/automatic(preferably a new Motorcraft or a even a used one from a JY) is a great substitute. I use a JY one since my brand new DB Electrical seems "down a cylinder" in power compared to my old used '96 Motorcraft starter I sourced while JY "browsing".
www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires.

No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t.

Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-October-2016 at 1:23PM
jeff, mine does that when it hasn't been started for a couple of weeks or more only when it's cold and hasn't been started for weeks.

joe: that link i posted above is for a 1/2" spacer!!! you can get taller one's though. like i said i've bought several of those from them, good quality, everything pictured included and the best price i've found too
JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE
74 CORVETTE COUPE CUSTOM
90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED
77 CELICA CUSTOM
75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED
79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED
75 VEGA V6 5 SPD
70 CHEV C10 P/U
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aquartlow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-October-2016 at 1:27PM
Originally posted by californiajohnny californiajohnny wrote:

jeff, mine does that when it hasn't been started for a couple of weeks or more only when it's cold and hasn't been started for weeks.

joe: that link i posted above is for a 1/2" spacer!!! you can get taller one's though. like i said i've bought several of those from them, good quality, everything pictured included and the best price i've found too
 
John,
 I apologize for not clicking on the link you provided before I replied Embarrassed.
www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires.

No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t.

Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote n2fordwagons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-October-2016 at 1:02AM
Originally posted by californiajohnny californiajohnny wrote:

jeff, mine does that when it hasn't been started for a couple of weeks or more only when it's cold and hasn't been started for weeks.
 
Hmmm.  I'll have to pay more attention.  I'm pretty sure mine does this every time the car is cold, whether it's the following day, a week later, or a month later.
Jeff

76 Mercury Montego MX Villager w/ 460
79 Ford Thunderbird w/ T-tops
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote unlovedford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-October-2016 at 2:47AM
Todd, thanks for the spacer and starter info. John, you too.

I should make a video of it to show how it does. Pumping your foot madly does nothing, as there is just no fuel in the carb. Once 12 hours have passed, it cranks the same - whether a week, or just a night. It seems that once whatever fuel has "left", it does not get any worse. Will try all suggestions.

Would the decreased vacuum as a result of the cam change make any difference? I need to install a canister to help with the brake booster, and just thought of that last night. Thanks again!
Joe
1972 GTSquire Wagon
1972 Torino Wagon
1976 Torino (2)       
1968 Cougar XR7-First batch
1972 Torino 460
1989 BroncoII/Jeeps/Titanimous

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote unlovedford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-October-2016 at 2:50AM
Chuck, the oil is fine. No gas smell, no thinning.

Randy, this has the '78 Cougar tank and side fill. I will check the vent to see if it is open or even hooked up.

Excellent ideas, all.
Joe
1972 GTSquire Wagon
1972 Torino Wagon
1976 Torino (2)       
1968 Cougar XR7-First batch
1972 Torino 460
1989 BroncoII/Jeeps/Titanimous

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fordpower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-October-2016 at 5:29AM
My car has been that way since I bought it 13yrs. ago.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gnrlee01 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-October-2016 at 10:29AM
this is the exact same problem i have with my 460. when youve let your engine run for a while and everything is up to temp, take your breather off and physically touch your carburetor. after running mine for a while, (longer than a half hour, or any real driving) my carburetor is so hot that it burns my fingers when i touch it...and of course i have to use starting fluid and a half a million turns on the starter, before i get fuel back up to the carb again because of this. this is why im asking everyone to keep an eye out for an aluminum intake manifold for my car, so that i can kill 2 birds with one stone...reducing the weight with the aluminum over the cast iron, and secondly so that when i go to do the swap, i can plug off that exhaust gas tunnel that is under the carburetor and eliminate this problem for good.


Edited by gnrlee01 - 27-October-2016 at 10:29AM
74 gts 460/auto with factory sunroof
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-October-2016 at 11:33AM
I've still got an eye out steve aluminum intake, block off the exhaust cross over, and a phenolic spacer should do the trick!
JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE
74 CORVETTE COUPE CUSTOM
90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED
77 CELICA CUSTOM
75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED
79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED
75 VEGA V6 5 SPD
70 CHEV C10 P/U
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gnrlee01 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-October-2016 at 12:29PM
Originally posted by californiajohnny californiajohnny wrote:

I've still got an eye out steve aluminum intake, block off the exhaust cross over, and a phenolic spacer should do the trick!


thanks john!!  Smile
74 gts 460/auto with factory sunroof
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote unlovedford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-October-2016 at 1:16PM
Running a Weiand Stealth aluminum intake, semi R/A setup, open GTS scoops.



Joe
1972 GTSquire Wagon
1972 Torino Wagon
1976 Torino (2)       
1968 Cougar XR7-First batch
1972 Torino 460
1989 BroncoII/Jeeps/Titanimous

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aquartlow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-October-2016 at 1:19PM
I used this on my big block to remove/block heat from the underside of the intake and block the heat crossover, this and a phenolic carb spacer really helps with vapor lock/heat soak. Felpro MS96044
 
www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires.

No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t.

Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone.
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