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topper paint and body woes.

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Dan the ranchero man View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dan the ranchero man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: topper paint and body woes.
    Posted: 25-April-2014 at 11:24AM
Some of you may remember the razor back topper I did for the 79. Well I have run into some issues that are pretty disappointing. The entire structures paint is cracking. Kind of like that fire treated pottery were the glazing cracks (on pottery that is good ranchero topper BAD) I realize at this point there is no saving the paint job. But what can I do to this thing to prevent this from happening again? It appears that the filler/fiberglass underneath is shrinking/warping. The top looked great before my wife and I took a two hour trip to starved rock for the weekend. The car sat outside for 3 days and was in the direct sun and even a good size rain storm. Then when I brought it home you could see all the body work coming apart. Things that were smooth are now all warped and cracking. :mad: I planned on taking this car to the fairlane nationals at the end of June but if this topper gets any worse I will most likely take it off and leave it home.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zebra 3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-April-2014 at 11:45AM
...Not sure how thick of material you used, but here is what has been working for me so far...keep in mind this is on sheet metal....
  I use USC Duraglas to fill in,seal and build up the area that I was working on...the area where I welded in new metal...  then used 3M Flowable Finishing Glaze for leveling over the Duraglas... My goal is to have the bondo 1/16"(or less) to no more than 1/8" thick in the areas that I work on...The combo of USC Duraglas and 3M Flowable Finishing Glaze was given to me by the paint/body shop owner that will be shooting the base and clear coat on the Torino. 


Edited by Zebra 3 - 25-April-2014 at 11:48AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-April-2014 at 3:56PM
zebra3  you're on the right track!Thumbs Up

 dan, can you post some pics of what you've got happening, and is it only where you made repairs?
JOHN
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-April-2014 at 6:50PM
Aw Crap man!

regarding a possible fiberglass hood I was interested in, my paint shop guy over here told me to let it weather for a bit to let it 'outgas' & whatever it was gonna do. he said glass doesn't take to being painted right away, it gets cranky
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Dan the ranchero man View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dan the ranchero man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-April-2014 at 1:30AM
Zebra 3 I will post some pictures soon. Rockatansky the top sat for about 6 months before I actually painted after the body work was done. As far as where the cracking is occurring lets just say "everywhere"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dan the ranchero man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-April-2014 at 9:47AM
Here are a few pictures of the paint cracking issue I am dealing with now. Talked to a very reputable body shop in our area. I was basically told to to sit tight and use the thing for one full season and DON"T let it sit in the garage! Take it out and use it. Let happen it what may (shrinkage, paint cracking) then in Sept bring it back and he would be able at that time tell what would be needed to make sure this will not happen again. He feels now if anyone made any repairs another crack would pop back up in a couple of week and I would be right back where I started. He wants all the fiberglass and body filler I used to do what it needs to do. So I will do just that...wait and see and in the fall I will revisit this and correct it. The topper looks so cool I don't want to give up on it.





     
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Dan the ranchero man View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dan the ranchero man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-April-2014 at 9:50AM
Question? Why can't I edit my posts? as you can see I posted the same photo twice. tried to edit and All I get is a server error.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dave302 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-April-2014 at 10:43AM

Here is a shortcut to Dan's Ranchero Topper Project Thread, so you can see how he applied the Filler, Primer, Paint and Clear Coat.

Maybe someone can figure out if he may have possibly done something wrong.

Dan's Ranchero Topper Project Thread.

I also have listed the most common things that can cause Automobile Paint and Clear Coat to crack.

Cracking:
Also termed as alligatoring, checking, crow’s feet, spitting or crazing, this problem usually appears as lines or cracks in your car’s topcoat. Appearing like the cracks on dried mud, these marks usually come in different widths and lengths.

Cause:
There are a number of things that could result in the cracking of your car paint. These include excessive thickness of your undercoat or topcoat’s film, force-drying of undercoats with the air coming from your spray gun or inadequate flash time after every coat.

The non-thorough agitation or stirring of the paint ingredients or the improper mixture or excessive usage of hardener are also two other possible reasons. Then, there is also the use of standardized hardeners or reducers or the breaking down of your car’s finish due to the continued exposure of your vehicle to direct sunlight, extreme changes of temperature or moisture.

Repair:
There is nothing else you can do to fix this kind of blemish, but to get rid of all the cracked paint film and then refinish.

Prevention:
Even during the painting process, you can already prevent cracking from happening and it can be started by the proper application of all paint materials according to all the directions on their labels. Before starting with the refinishing procedure, remove all the cracked or crazed finishes completely.

Only use the recommended paint additives and mix these thoroughly with all the other ingredients. Each component must be added according to the recommended sequence and proper ratio for mixing. All materials should be agitated or stirred meticulously as well before using to make sure that all the ingredients are mixed into the solution.

Never use air from your spray gun to force dry undercoating. Be sure to use only the recommended reducer or thinner and hardener and measure them accurately before application. If you want maximum durability and gloss for your car, you should always use a two-component undercoat and topcoat system for it.
 



Edited by dave302 - 27-April-2014 at 7:05AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-April-2014 at 11:22AM
dan, that "hair line" crack in the pic--- was there a crack there in the fiberglass before you prepped and painted?  it looks like  a stress crack that was in the fiberglass prior to your work and vibration and twisting of it reopened the crack
JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE
74 VETTE CUSTOM
90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED
77 CELICA CUSTOM
75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED
79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED
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Dan the ranchero man View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dan the ranchero man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-April-2014 at 1:59PM
john if you check out the link that Dave posted of my topper build you will see that bad boy was very busted up! I did a lot of reconstruction of the entire topper. I ground off over 90% of the gel coating and reapplied a filler primer and sanded to rid of the hairline cracks and skinned the thing as well with body filler.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zebra 3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-April-2014 at 3:27PM
I am wondering if making that big cut in the rear portion compromised some rigidity...i.e a stress fracture/crack(s) from twisting....would have to see where the cracking is taking place to make that call....from what I can tell by the pictures it is near where the topper makes contact with the bed with the seal in between...but where at on the topper?

Edited by Zebra 3 - 26-April-2014 at 3:28PM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-April-2014 at 5:44PM
dan, i think i know what happened, where that was busted up, did you grind down the glass out away from any cracks so that you could relayer/reinforce the area with fiber glass? if you just filled the crack with bondo/primer it will flex and recrack Cry i've done a lot of questionable things over the years, some worked (most did not!) i don't have any digital pics of my vette, while i was doing it to show what i mean (sorry) i've done a bit of fiber glass work over the years(PITA hated it) had to do a bunch on the vette (was seriously dreading it) but it went so smooth it was almost scary!!! (after that good fortune, i swore i'd never go back to metal body work!) now i'm patching panels on the torino,welding, and grinding, forming metal Wacko
JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE
74 VETTE CUSTOM
90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED
77 CELICA CUSTOM
75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED
79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED
75 VEGA V6 5 SPD
70 CHEV C10 P/U
68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Montego01 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-April-2014 at 12:53AM
Those sure look like fiberglass stress cracks to me. It just appears to be the paint cracking because the fiberglass is giving away below the paint. There really is no support at the edges of the topper. If it was the paint, they'd be all over the topper including any of the flatter areas of the topper.

The gelcoat needs to be in place to keep this from happening.
You really need to do is grind all that back down (remove the paint), then re gel coat it and possibly even add more matting.

I took a  look at your topper thread and didn't really see any fiberglassing. Plus you mentioned on this thread, you took off most of the gelcoat, then just bondo'd and primed it.

Primer and bondo will do nothing except make it look pretty. It offers no support on a big topper like that. Plus since the lid was cut out of it, I'm sure that took some of the rigidness away (like Brian said).

I'm assuming all the cracks are on the lower edge of the topper?
If so, here is what I would do.

Remove the topper and lid.
Use a 'big wheel' (really a buffer type machine with a 8" 'stick-it' pad on it).
and grind the complete bottom edge about 8-12" up from the bottom.
Then add section of fiberglass matting and the resin mix to the complete edge (at least 4" up). Try to wrap it around to the inside. Let it dry overnight, possibly even a couple days.
You can carefully grind it with 80 grit, then possibly even add more resin mix depending on how it went on for you (you may not need this if it went on nice, smooth and thick for you).
If you did add another layer of resin, you can grind one more time, THEN you can bondo to make it straight. This should give you plenty of support.

It also helps to lay the fiberglass on wax paper, pour and brush the resin over the matting. Then slap it up on the area you are working on. Do this sections at a time.

If you just do the cracks that you see now, I'd be afraid that you repaired those, others would pop up down the road. Might as well do it right so you aren't constantly chasing cracks.
Also be sure and look very closely at other areas elsewhere on the topper to see if you are also getting cracks there.

You'll probably need the following
8" 40 grit discs
8" 80 grit discs
6" 40 grit discs
6" 80 grit discs
6" 180 grit discs
1 gallon resin (comes with activator)
1 gallon of bondo
Primer - catalyzed - NO rattlecan primer.
paint, clear, reducer, hardener...

Be sure and put paper on the floor before doing all this. It's messy! Wear gloves.

Realistically, you could have this done in a couple weeks even working full time and doing this in the PM and weekends.

The topper looks great on your car!!! 
Like to see you get all these worked out before that show!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Bird Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-April-2014 at 3:01AM
Looks like stress cracks in the picture, I would try reinforcing it on the underside with several layers of fiberglas as well as repairing the topside. On the underside, a buildup won't be as noticeable.
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Dan the ranchero man View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dan the ranchero man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-April-2014 at 5:26AM
Originally posted by Montego01 Montego01 wrote:

Those sure look like fiberglass stress cracks to me. It just appears to be the paint cracking because the fiberglass is giving away below the paint. There really is no support at the edges of the topper. If it was the paint, they'd be all over the topper including any of the flatter areas of the topper.

The gelcoat needs to be in place to keep this from happening.
You really need to do is grind all that back down (remove the paint), then re gel coat it and possibly even add more matting.

I took a  look at your topper thread and didn't really see any fiberglassing. Plus you mentioned on this thread, you took off most of the gelcoat, then just bondo'd and primed it.

Primer and bondo will do nothing except make it look pretty. It offers no support on a big topper like that. Plus since the lid was cut out of it, I'm sure that took some of the rigidness away (like Brian said).

I'm assuming all the cracks are on the lower edge of the topper?
If so, here is what I would do.

Remove the topper and lid.
Use a 'big wheel' (really a buffer type machine with a 8" 'stick-it' pad on it).
and grind the complete bottom edge about 8-12" up from the bottom.
Then add section of fiberglass matting and the resin mix to the complete edge (at least 4" up). Try to wrap it around to the inside. Let it dry overnight, possibly even a couple days.
You can carefully grind it with 80 grit, then possibly even add more resin mix depending on how it went on for you (you may not need this if it went on nice, smooth and thick for you).
If you did add another layer of resin, you can grind one more time, THEN you can bondo to make it straight. This should give you plenty of support.

It also helps to lay the fiberglass on wax paper, pour and brush the resin over the matting. Then slap it up on the area you are working on. Do this sections at a time.

If you just do the cracks that you see now, I'd be afraid that you repaired those, others would pop up down the road. Might as well do it right so you aren't constantly chasing cracks.
Also be sure and look very closely at other areas elsewhere on the topper to see if you are also getting cracks there.

You'll probably need the following
8" 40 grit discs
8" 80 grit discs
6" 40 grit discs
6" 80 grit discs
6" 180 grit discs
1 gallon resin (comes with activator)
1 gallon of bondo
Primer - catalyzed - NO rattlecan primer.
paint, clear, reducer, hardener...

Be sure and put paper on the floor before doing all this. It's messy! Wear gloves.

Realistically, you could have this done in a couple weeks even working full time and doing this in the PM and weekends.

The topper looks great on your car!!! 
Like to see you get all these worked out before that show!

Thanks a bunch for the tips and advice. I will most likely Not have this done before the show BUT it will get done by end of year. I have a lot going on between now and the show (end of June). The original gel coat looked like the paint does now (that is why I removed it). The major part of the failure is in the areas where there is no extra fiberglass matting (I.E) edges and door hatch backside near handle) The rest seems to be holding up ok. This has been an expensive lesson in bodywork but If in the end it looks great I will be good with it. Thanks again Dan

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote unlovedford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-April-2014 at 11:44AM
Looks like stress cracks, alright. Only way to fix that properly is to grind it all out, reinforce it, fiberglass it and then properly prep for paint. As far as letting it go, cracks only grow. Never stay the same.
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