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Air conditioning charge issues high pressure

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Eliteman76 View Drop Down
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    Posted: 23-July-2014 at 1:57PM
Anyone that knows AC, I need consultation. Having some teething issues on my conversion.

PM me with a phone number if you don't have mine.

Andrew
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robbdtme Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-July-2014 at 6:51PM
What's up? My Cell company airfire went out of business so new phone on the way from republic wireless, In the meantime post away and happy to help.
Don't try any do it yourself kit crap until you understand it all which is pretty easy if done right, Modern and old stuff does not mix ( R12 VS R134 ) and you can really damage a system fast taking shortcuts etc. Take a day or two and learn first then do it right.
For example don't try just charging it with a over the counter 134a kit, Your system is not currently compatible with that and it will ruin your compressor at the least. The oils used with R12 freon do not work with r134 for example. It is easy with the proper tools and they can usually be rented from a decent auto parts store at around 20 bucks a day or bought from ebay if you feel like spending 150-250, Worth it if you have a few jobs for the tools.
Robb


Edited by Robbdtme - 23-July-2014 at 6:59PM
Johnny cash Special 74-75-76 freak. 77 XR7. 78 LTD II sport looks pretty but poop 302 in it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robbdtme Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-July-2014 at 7:09PM
I missed the HIGH PRESSURE part of your post. If your pressure is too high do not run it until we chat. Overcharging is really bad and will damage the compressor, If you already tried charging a R12 setup with R134a You actually use 15 percent less then a factory charge amount. You also have to get all the mineral oil out of the system and change to pag46 oil for R134a.


Edited by Robbdtme - 23-July-2014 at 7:13PM
Johnny cash Special 74-75-76 freak. 77 XR7. 78 LTD II sport looks pretty but poop 302 in it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eliteman76 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-July-2014 at 7:11PM
I ran into issues with the charge level, from what I'm thinking. I originally thought I may have over charged
but not the case. I think the evap core may be freezing up but not 100% yet.
Based off the 85% rule of the r12 charge, I factored 5.1 cans, 12oz.
I based off 4 lbs 8 oz = 16 ozx4 = 64 + 8 = 72 oz for r12. Times .85, deduct gets 61.2 oz.
Where I'm loss, the head pressures spike bad to plus 300, any time over 800-1000rpm. Low side is running 30-40.

I can't get solid info on where it needs to be. Going to see about if a shop with a machine can evacuate and charge.
I figured I used to do ac work this should be basic but she's fighting me.

Edited by Eliteman76 - 23-July-2014 at 7:12PM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eliteman76 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-July-2014 at 7:17PM

Good Morning-

I'll try to stay on topic and want too much.

My post consists of the following issues:
-I replaced the STV with a POA eliminator kit for clutch cycling - mistake? See below for details.
-Compressor oil level versus original oil level for my vehicle.
-Ideal system pressures and R134a charge amount.


A lot of good information here on the forum, and spent two very late nights sifting through retrofits, POA/STV posts.

I need to get my low and high side readings when I get home tonight, I can't find my notes from last night. I was out there until 330AM reading manuals trying to calculate if I have things correct and called it a night.

Reason for posting:
In 2011, I had retrofitted my 1972 Ford Gran Torino. I rebuilt the system using OEM specific parts for use with R134a.

That had consisted of:
-A know original, tested and functional 1971 dated factory York compressor
-A good original Ford factory condenser
-Original STV valve {not adjusted}
-Original Evap assembly on firewall
-Hoses rebuilt with Goodyear barrier hose, I elected to keep the R12 fittings as my gauge set has 134A adapters but it unscrewed fit R12 ports.
-Replacement dryer for OEM, for R134a
-Replacement expansion valve

R12 charge calls 4 lbs 8 oz
Oil charge is questionable here, the Ford service books are vague. I was reading again in my factory manual there was no specification listed for the oil a York would take.
At the time of the first retrofit I had a local HVAC guy assisting me on the vacuum and recharging as he had the correct tools.

My background I spent 7 years as an autobody tech and did a number of AC repairs on late models. Not much in the way of trouble shooting, more of just pull a frame/unibody, rebuilt the car/truck, replace the coolers, line and related, and evac and recharge. I by no means am a master tech, and I never was certified for R12 like I should have been considering the stuff I was rebuilding. {I did however try to avoid caveman, vent to the atmosphere stuff}

2011:
After dialing in the system, we found it took the York happiest with six 12 oz cans + oil charge of 10 oz oil for the system from what we measured at the time. {This would seem to be overcharged?}
According to the formula of reducing to 90% of the R12 charge then reducing another -.25 LB {4 oz} I was figuring it should have been like 5 cans, 12 OZ size, plus a shot off a sixth. I found at that time, dialed in with summer temps around 85F I had 18PSI on the low side.
I do not recall the high side pressures but I want to say it was in the normal spec of 2.5x temp when the system was topped off and running. 220PSI? I really with I could find my notes from then.

I ran my car in this configuration since 2011 to early 2014 with mixed results. At times it would be absolutely frigid. Other times, like on the interstate at speed {car is currently geared for highway driving, RPM's spinning around 3,000-3,500 RPM.
At that time, the Ford service book for the HVAC section, R12 pressures 10-20 low side, and 200-220 from what I recall seeing last night. Over 300 PSI getting to 340-350 according to the book would indicate malfunction and to shut down the system immediately.
I realize the GTS has a greenhouse equal to the Chrysler building.

Now this brings me to my reason for posting. I elected to swap brackets on my car to clean up the engine bay with factory brackets powder coated to clean up things.
When I pulled the idler tensioner pulley bracket I had mounted to the York, one of the bolts had in my 2011 install bottomed out just enough to crack the very bottom of the bolt boss on the right front of the compressor. it remained charged, until I backed off the bolt. It had a slow leak, spooked the hell out of me, so I cranked it back down. it stopped the leaking, but at this point I am SOL and JWF. I elected to open the garage up, turn a fan on, and then the York gave up the ghost and decided to let go on me as I wasn't able to get a machine on it in time to pull it down. The crack was at the very bottom, and the end of the bolt managed to be the perfect length to compress it against the case.

That started me on my search for updating my car to modern parts for R134a. After discussions with the local shop that rebuilt my hoses, and two suppliers, one being the ACKITS.com guys who put up with me calling 3-4 times with condenser questions, I dealt with my local shop and picked up the following:

That had consisted of:
-New Sanden compressor 709 Vintage air part#04709-VUA.
-New Parallel flow condenser. Core size is 28" long x 18" tall, as I wanted to match the original fin and tube Ford unit for size, and the shop's suggestion to go as large as possible.
-I went with a POA eliminator kit specific for my car at the suggestion of the shop, with the pressure switch, more as a safety suggestion by the shop.
-Original Evap assembly on firewall
-Reused hoses rebuilt with Goodyear barrier hose, some new fittings crimped on for use with the sanden unit. One fitting is a #12 to #10 fitting to adapt to the #10 port on the 709. all others remain OEM size.
-Replacement dryer for OEM, for 134A. {In this case I have had two lines made to keep the install in a similar install to the factory location, with the exception of placement on the opposite side of the condenser due to the output of the #6 port. I placed it in the same relative location and layout.
-Replacement expansion valve.
-Installed the Vintage Air 351c specific Sanden adapter bracket with idler.
-Installed Heavy duty service V belt


I still have the STV valve {not adjusted}. I am beginning to wonder if it was a mistake to have gone to the POA eliminator kit versus calibrating the STV valve.

Last night, 79°F ambient temp, 70-75% humidity, I elected to do one last check and charge the system.
I purchase a 6CFM vacuum pump, and was at -30 IN Hg, and it held the vacuum overnight with no changes. I did draw vacuum twice on the system as a precaution due to {recommended solvent flushing out the system due to me being paranoid my previous install and reusing older components.

The 709 came with a 135CC/5oz oil charge. Vintage air stated that oil charge was sufficient for my system. The local AC shop agreed.

I have questioned this, as I back flushed the hoses and evap, and the rest of the system was new. I added a single PAG46 charge can, 3 oz, but after the charge, it was only 1 additional oz of oil.
Questioning if this should be increased to 8-10 OZ per the original system.

R134a used was Dupont brand with no oil added. 12oz cans.
I also added one small bottle, 1 oz of the "Ice synthetic temp booster", and leak dye, into one hose before sealing the system.

I used a can tap with hand trigger on the evap service port fitting, with my gauges hooked up. First can went in with the car off.

I rotated the compressor by hand 15-20 times before starting.

I then started my car, it was idling at 1200rpm in neutral. I turned the AC on, and added 4 more cans. System pressures didn't seem out of line {sorry I didn't write them down, I will check again tonight and post back}.

The compressor clutch was cycling, running good, no noises, no belt slip, I was truly happy {that york slipped over 3500-4,000 RPM, and with a four speed car drove me INSANE}.
I need to find my good thermometers as I dropped the one I was using and well, stepped on the thing.

With the car idling, I got in and increased the RPM to 1500. It cooled down while the compressor was running, quite nice. The the unit would shut off, and I'd get luke warm air.
I took the car for a drive, and it was cycling cool warm cool warm. Not exactly the ice I was expecting.
My Edelbrock carb is missing the idle solenoid to bump the RPM up to 1500 RPM when the AC kicks on, waiting for that to get here to install.

The blend doors and heater core shutoff valve are functioning and removed from potential issues.
I did not try spraying water on the condenser as some suggested on other posts.

I'm looking for guidance here with out having a mental breakdown.

Biggest issue is we are taking a 2,000 mile road trip in the next week for a major show and the wife and I need the AC functioning.
I don't want to, but if I have to crack the system open, swap back the STV, and recharge, so be it.

I'm under the gun to get this pieced back together and operating properly.

I'm also with the Fairlane Club of America and on a number of the Torino specific sites, and I would like to really have this cleared up, so I can help others avoid the pitfalls in retrofitting their cars.




     
     
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Dougflas
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Wed July 23, 2014 12:51 PM     
    

That started me on my search for updating my car to modern parts for R134a. After discussions with the local shop that rebuilt my hoses, and two suppliers, one being the ACKITS.com guys who put up with me calling 3-4 times with condenser questions, I dealt with my local shop and picked up the following


Why not buy your parts from ACKITS since they run this site and did help you???

Your old York's oil level was meant to be checked with a dip stick tool


I do not like POA eleiminator kits. If it were mine at this poinrt, I would have used the TXV and an eavporator sensing switch to cycle the compressor in order to cycle the compressor on temperature instead of pressure as the eliminator kit does. Your old York's suction pressure would be low in the 18 to 22psi range because the low side was directly on the compressor service valve. You're now playing refrigeration engineer so you'll need to play with the charge level. 80 to 85% of the R12 level is a starting point. ou want the compressor to cycle off before it can freeze up.

     
     
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eliteman76
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Wed July 23, 2014 1:43 PM     
    

I have been dealing with my local AC shop for a number of years, and had them build my hoses. They stocked the condenser and most of the fittings for my update, and have also helped me with other projects, so I wanted to keep my money local with a family run business that supports local car shows...not trying to disrespect the guys that run the forum.

I noticed the dip stick portion in the manual, but thought it was odd in the fact no specific level was stated. The other era Fords such as the Thunderbird used a 6 piston compressor {delco?} and there were specific charts for oil levels.

I called Classic Air on the POA and the gentleman I spoke with was adamant about the charge only being 3 lbs 4 oz; Old Air products {supplier for the POA eliminator} showed 4 lbs 4 oz for some cars, 4 lbs 8 oz for other Ford intermediates.

I re-verified with the local shop, and they suggested I verify at Idle if in fact I have 30-40 PSI on the low side, and 2.5x temp on the high side, blower set to low, and windows and doors open.

Hopefully I was correct on my original charge, and didn't overcharge the system.

Thanks for your advise on my issue...I really appreciate the help.
Andrew



     
     
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eliteman76
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Wed July 23, 2014 10:22 PM     
    

I rolled the car out, hooked up off the hi/low ports off the compressor.

Temperature: 79F
Humidity level has dropped considerably compared to last night.
At idle speed, I am running ~35-43 on the low side. Low side drops eventually down to ~25 before the compressor kicks off.
The high side creeps up, it's peeked near 300.
Engine RPM is roughly 1,000.

The instant I attempt to throttle up to 1500-200 RPM, high pressure rockets up, and I kill the ac as I don't want to kill the compressor by exceeding 340-350psi

I'm checking into have the shop pull the system down, and recharge with a machine this time...Suppose this is what I get for not using a scale with a single tank.

I can only make certain guesses to my error(s) at this point despite attempting to do this the correct method base on charge.

On the evap case it's cold. But not experiencing frosting issues.

     
     
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robbdtme Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-July-2014 at 7:21PM
Where did it start on pressures before charging, I see you went R134a, or was it already converted prior?. Mineral oil removed and pag46 oil added ( Might have been in your charge cans ). 134 doesn't let mineral oil flow normal like R12 does. While most don't mention it a 134 conversion should have the expansion valve changed as the properties are different which could freeze your evap like you mentioned.
Johnny cash Special 74-75-76 freak. 77 XR7. 78 LTD II sport looks pretty but poop 302 in it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robbdtme Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-July-2014 at 7:36PM
Spinning your gauge dials to calibrate outside temp right, High side is pretty extreme. On a 134 conversion around 8-9 oz PAG46 oil is about right for these.
I would guess that it probably is a plugged orifice tube/ expansion valve. If it is a plugged orifice tube, you need to figure out what plugged it. It could be that somebody charged the system in the past with refrigerant with leak sealer. If it is that, you will need to flush the system, replace the orifice tube, evacuate and recharge the system. Again the expansion valve orifice tube should be changed out to run 134a properly.



Edited by Robbdtme - 23-July-2014 at 7:40PM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eliteman76 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-July-2014 at 2:51AM
*blank stare, deer in headlight look*
OK, I wasn't aware I should be rotating cover on the gauge to match temp...

*facepalm*

As far as things sit right no, everything in the system is new except the evap core and the hoses.

These were completely flushed with a solvent based flush, and that was ok'd by the guys at the local AC shop for my use.

Expansion valve, dryer, condenser, and the compressor was replaced.

Are their R134a specific expansion blocks? I bought the same one when i converted the car in 2011, which is the stock replacement unit.

When you say orifice tube, this era of car I didn't think had one?
I'm used to the late model stuff having the orifice tube.
This is what I think of for orifice tube: 



Edited by Eliteman76 - 24-July-2014 at 2:53AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eliteman76 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-July-2014 at 3:59AM
Vintage Air feels I have two issues:
-Possible excessive refrigerant charge.
-Excess oil in system.

Recommended action:
Pull system down, evacuate refrigerant.
Replace dryer

Local shop:

Evac system, open up, attempt to drain out excess oil. Suggested the same for the dryer assembly.
Dryer replacement should not be needed in my case because entire system is new.

Expansion valve is not suspect. High side pressures of 250-260PSI are not out of line.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GranTorinoSport Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-July-2014 at 5:13AM
Andy,

I have been watching this thread closely as I am getting ready later this summer to get my AC going once I get all the parts.

Since you are several steps ahead of me, I do not have any really good suggestions.

However, I do have some general comments to some of your questions (things I have found out over the last year or so):

Our system does use an accumulator but not an orifice tube. Our system is an Expansion Valve + Suction Throttle Valve - I am unsure why we have an accumulator (the big can on the passenger side fender) but some here have said it is ok to eliminate it when you move to a modern compressor. I do not know why it would have been there to begin with (as you indicate, Ford documentation of the time is vague or nonexistent). However, you can choose to switch over completely to an orifice tube and accumulator system if you wish. A gentleman named "Nacho" on aircondition.com does conversions and recommends it. I chose to remain with an STV/Expansion Valve.

Ford mid-size original charge was 4lb 8oz. I believe that is true for all 72-76. I am unsure about 77-79.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eliteman76 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-July-2014 at 5:25AM
Scott-
The black coffee can tube thing was in face a muffler of sorts. The shop here said conversion is not needed, so when I made a new hose I didn't replace.

Tonight I may take a break and mess with this tomorrow night. It was suggested bleed off some of my refrigerant charge. Go off the pressures in the system.

Edited by Eliteman76 - 24-July-2014 at 6:57AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eliteman76 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-July-2014 at 7:01AM
Spoke with the shop service foreman this time. Discussed bringing my car in.

He said right now, their records indicate the Torino system typically got 4 lbs 4 oz. R12. R12 is more forgiving than R134a in things. While charging off weight in theory should be fine, you must watch your system pressures and adjust as needed.

 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robbdtme Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-July-2014 at 7:59AM
Sounds like you have done everything correctly, Only last thought would be to ( Most shops have it ) have the refrigerant type checked, They use if to determine type if unknown, Converted or not. Reason I mention this is the Chinese have been selling bootleg copied Dupont 134a lately, Dupont is really upset over it. The bootleg stuff is all over the board. Some is up to 90 percent r12, Some even just propane.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eliteman76 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-July-2014 at 9:42AM
I bought off ebay from a highly rated seller with factory sealed cases from Dupont.
I'll double check the cans when I get home, but I can say the box definitely had a USA feel to it.
I know that sounds stupid, but I get industrial equipment in occasionally, for cranes for festooning {power supply stuff} and you can just tell the quality of the boxes are crap compared to the USA manufactured packaging.
Cans look identical to what I saw at O'rielly Auto parts the other day as well.

I paid $54 for a 12 can case, compared to local $12-$15 a can pricing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robbdtme Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-July-2014 at 11:28AM
Word is the cans have a few spelling errors if you look closely. Probably not the issue but you really went through it all pretty completely. I did end up with a ebay 30lb tank of knock-off dupont suva 134a packaged like the real thing, It had actually a poor grade of r12 in it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eliteman76 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-July-2014 at 1:06PM
Guy just messaged back off eBay, look at my feedback I've sold thousands of cases, don't know what to say other than we are a preferred DuPont seller.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eliteman76 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-July-2014 at 10:19AM
Ok guys I spent some time today working on the system. First bat I decided to bleed off so high side pressue. Not much it was pure guessing but a small bit off the high side. Big improvement on high side pressure readings.
Was able to finally run at 1500 rpm with panel on ac on high. Ten to fifteen minutes. With an outside temp of 79 degrees, I was getting head pressures much better I'm now running around 210-230 with us in acceptable running pressures.
The compressor barely is even noticeable! Love driving not like the old York.
I also adjusted the low pressure switch on the poa eliminator about a quarter turn as instructed and that helped.
I tried spraying with water as a check, no real change in head pressures so I'm feeling good. Running down the road dash vent temps are at ~52 degrees which feels decent. Long term I'm tinting my glass which will help, but for now the test will be the gta.org show trip.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eliteman76 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-July-2014 at 10:20AM
Next fix: wiring harness for the high speed switch problems. I will do a post on this separately for people so they know how to keep our cars from melting switches and plugs at the control head.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GranTorinoSport Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-August-2014 at 4:08AM
Andy,

Now that the show is over, how did the AC work?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eliteman76 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-August-2014 at 5:47AM
Overall, we stayed cool and comfortable.
I'm going to tint my car later this summer. I think even a 35% tint would be a huge help, I'm going 20% all around though.
Issue I had was it would get nice and cold. But then the air would get lukewarm as the compressor cycled.
I'm going to revisit my pressures and check things out.
I may bite the bullet a spend $140 at the shop that did my hoses to test the system and verify if I'm not off on my refrigerant charge slightly.

I also plan to pull my seats and carpet, remove the good factory insulation and spray lizard skin.
Unless there is a specific thread for floor insulation.
My exhaust is tucked tight near the tunnel and I know I'm getting radiant heat.

Vintage air with their gen iv magnum unit looks like a good update possibility but you know me. I'm liable to guy my dash and go get a 2003-2012 crown Vic dash setup.

Anyone have service diagrams for the cv?
Andrew:GTS.ORG admin, '72 Q code 5 speed Restomod
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dave302 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-August-2014 at 7:39AM
Originally posted by Eliteman76 Eliteman76 wrote:

I also plan to pull my seats and carpet, remove the good factory insulation and spray lizard skin. Unless there is a specific thread for floor insulation.
 
There is a good thread about this subject below. Many of the members had talked about floor insulation in the thread below.
 
 
There is also another short thread about this subject below.
 


Edited by dave302 - 07-August-2014 at 8:48AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eliteman76 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-August-2014 at 3:20AM
Thanks, I will need to look that over this weekend. 

Had the car out last weekend, and stuck sitting in the car cruise traffic from hell on a very hot muggy day the AC was a godsend. Was watching the temp gauge creep up half way while stuck there, not had that before as my car has always ran cool. But I was used to the direct drive fan.

I still feel the system may need tweaking. Time will tell.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dave302 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-August-2014 at 3:31AM
Originally posted by Eliteman76 Eliteman76 wrote:

Thanks, I will need to look that over this weekend.
 
Your Welcome.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GranTorinoSport Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-August-2014 at 5:43AM
I have been using the Hush Mat products in my Torino as I have been moving through various areas. It is nice stuff - works well and a novice like myself can install it pretty easily.

In hot weather, there was no odor. I am big on that, as I am somewhat sensitive to chemicals.

The stuff sticks really well, heck I even used the foam stuff cut up for heater case seals and door dampeners.

It is outrageously expensive, I will admit that, but it is a product I am satisfied with, and hearing that Gran Torino Man had to say about it many years back, I think it is worth it.

One of the things I need to focus on coming up is the floor. Like you, I am getting a ton of heat from the transmission and exhaust. Also noise coming up from the floor is a little much (exhaust). A bunch of good insulation would solve that problem very well...
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