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INFO: Braking Options….Hydroboost

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californiajohnny View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-November-2016 at 2:52PM
so are you missing the rod thing from the lincoln hydro???
JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE
74 VETTE CUSTOM
90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED
77 CELICA CUSTOM
75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED
79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED
75 VEGA V6 5 SPD
70 CHEV C10 P/U
68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BackInBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-November-2016 at 3:02PM
Originally posted by californiajohnny californiajohnny wrote:

so are you missing the rod thing from the lincoln hydro???

Yup...I'm missing the rod between the hydroboost booster and the master cylinder.   Its different than the vacuum booster rod.    

Looks like this


Looks like a star washer, another plastic washer, and spring.  

Its on this website
http://www.thehollisterroadcompany.com/hydroboost.html

I guess I can just make a simple rod and cut to size.   


Edited by BackInBlack - 06-November-2016 at 3:05PM
-John
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-November-2016 at 3:51PM
does it just pull out from the mastercylinder end? because the 76 mark IV i got the master and prop valve from has a complete hydro still on itWink


 that link above was an interesting read!!Big smile


Edited by californiajohnny - 06-November-2016 at 4:21PM
JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE
74 VETTE CUSTOM
90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED
77 CELICA CUSTOM
75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED
79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED
75 VEGA V6 5 SPD
70 CHEV C10 P/U
68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BackInBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-November-2016 at 11:57PM
I bought rebuilt booster part from rockauto. It didn't come with these pieces.   I thought the original parts might work...I gambled on ford's common parts and reuse and lost.

So now I have to find those parts or fab them. I'd rather not cut up the original part, that's a last resort.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BackInBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-November-2016 at 6:01AM
Bingo!   check this out.
http://www.tallonhydraulics.com/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=40_16

This may be the one...
http://www.tallonhydraulics.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=40_16&products_id=66

or this one...
http://www.tallonhydraulics.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=40_16&products_id=64


I wonder if I need this??  
http://www.tallonhydraulics.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=70


-John
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BackInBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-November-2016 at 3:17AM
Wow...what a headache doing this.   What i've learned is it was basically easy for those who had a donor car to pull the parts from, but doing piece/part assembly like I'm doing is a real pain.   My advice would be to don't do it the hard way like I did.   What I did learn that may be helpful for others:
1.  Use the newer version of hydroboost found on mid-80's and newer cars.   Bendix was the original mfg but was bought by Bosch and hte later units have better quality control.
2.  Plan on relocating the booster pin on the pedal.
3.  The master cylinder rod and spring/retaining washer are hte other hard parts to find which come for free with donor car.

Locally, I tried to find a hydraulic company to make me new hoses.  They wanted to charge me 200-300 bucks.   Pfft...  I'm building braided hoses now.  I'm so sick of these vendors trying to gouge me...

Here are a few links that was hugely helpful getting my problems sorted.
mustangsteve.com
Helped my get bearings installed on the brace for pedal support. Also, relocated my booster pin on the pedal for me.  He has a lot of good info and various parts at reasonable prices.   Master cylinders, pedals, boosters, etc.
http://www.mustangsteve.com/clutchbearings.html

Tallon Hydraulics
To bad I didn't find these guys sooner.  He makes hydroboost adapter plates, rods, etc.   He supplied the mastercylinder rod and spring kit.  He was very helpful and supplies kits with everything for reasonable prices.  He has a Torino kit for a 71 and he was willing to discuss supporting these year(s) of Fords.  
EDIT: Also...FYI there is suppose to be 20 thousandths of play in the master cylinder rod when assembled.  No preload!
http://www.tallonhydraulics.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=40_16&products_id=65

Techna Fit
http://www.technafitstore.com/
These guys supply all kinds of hose parts.  More importantly they will build you hoses with whatever fittings you want.   To bad I didn't find them sooner.   Hope this helps someone avoid the pain I had to go through to get this assembled.




Edited by BackInBlack - 14-November-2016 at 4:06AM
-John
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aquartlow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-November-2016 at 3:53AM
Techna fit is a great place for a bunch of hydraulic "stuff" best prices I have found on fittings/lines, bought all my fittings and a couple of MC to prop valve supply lines from them. As far as pressure lines, you can get fittings that allows you to use simple hand tools/wrenches to make your own(I did this for my PS box supply line from the HB unit). I have to look where I bought the fittings from and I just went to my local hydraulic supply house and he sold me 2 foot of 3k psi line and actually showed me the correct way to ensure a leak-free union. Great info/links above.  Thumbs Up
 
Here is the place where I purchased the re-usable 90 degree fittings to build my own hydraulic line/hose.


Edited by aquartlow - 14-November-2016 at 4:09AM
www.supermotors.net/22468
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BackInBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-June-2017 at 7:32AM
FYI...found this.  They sell kits for torinos
http://www.hydratechbraking.com/

Also, I found out the reason why the power steering pump has two return fittings; one for the steering and hte other for hte hydroboost return back to the reservior on the pump.

Apparently there is a possibility that you can get some feedback from from one system into the other under hard use...   Meaning if you hit the brakes hard you can disrupt the steering.  Same goes the other way.   The power steering is expecting a pressure differential from high side to low side so when the low side see to much pressure it reduces the effeciency of either the hydroboost or power steering gearbox. 

Two separate return hoses prevents this from occurring.   I had always wondered "why does the pump have 2 return fittings...there has to be a reason for this? "   I dug into this and found this information to share with the members. 

You may be fine with a T-fitting, but there is a chance that under hard use you may experience this issue.   It may be fine but probably it would be best to move the t-fitting as close as possible to the reservoir.  The reservoir serves the function of dissipating the return pressure in the steering return such that it doesn't feed back into the brake return line.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GranTorinoSport Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-June-2017 at 8:14AM
Originally posted by BackInBlack BackInBlack wrote:

FYI...found this.  They sell kits for torinos
http://www.hydratechbraking.com/

Also, I found out the reason why the power steering pump has two return fittings; one for the steering and hte other for hte hydroboost return back to the reservior on the pump.

Apparently there is a possibility that you can get some feedback from from one system into the other under hard use...   Meaning if you hit the brakes hard you can disrupt the steering.  Same goes the other way.   The power steering is expecting a pressure differential from high side to low side so when the low side see to much pressure it reduces the effeciency of either the hydroboost or power steering gearbox. 

Two separate return hoses prevents this from occurring.   I had always wondered "why does the pump have 2 return fittings...there has to be a reason for this? "   I dug into this and found this information to share with the members. 

You may be fine with a T-fitting, but there is a chance that under hard use you may experience this issue.   It may be fine but probably it would be best to move the t-fitting as close as possible to the reservoir.  The reservoir serves the function of dissipating the return pressure in the steering return such that it doesn't feed back into the brake return line.

A little steep at $850+ but I like that all of the guess work is taken out of it and it is a ready to install unit. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-June-2017 at 9:12AM
definitely don't T the return lines together, it'll create back pressure in the returns and affect the pressure side of both systems, steering & brakes are not things you want fighting you under most circumstances
 
same with performance EFI and even carbed fuel systems, they recommend the return actually be larger than the pressure supply to prevent the return from experiencing any pressure.
 
returns need to be completely free flowing, a T junction will cause a restriction and pressure point
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GranTorinoSport Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-June-2017 at 11:17AM
Is it possible to buy a brand new saginaw pump with the two return inlets?

And to use the pump, we only need to grind out a small section of the PS mount bracket?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aquartlow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-June-2017 at 12:45PM
Originally posted by GranTorinoSport GranTorinoSport wrote:

Is it possible to buy a brand new saginaw pump with the two return inlets?

And to use the pump, we only need to grind out a small section of the PS mount bracket?
 
 
Scott,
 Rockauto supposedly still have them, look under a '75/'76 Thunderbird with hydroboost, Lares 2160. This has the pressed on pulley some earlier versions have the bolt-on pulley with woodruff key. IMO, The Saginaw pump is the better choice. Good luck.
www.supermotors.net/22468
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BackInBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-June-2017 at 3:19PM
The saginaw pump with 2 returns is from a 78 lincoln. I have a new reman LARES pump with a new pulley lm looking to sell. Never used it.   I got a serpentine pulley system and now don't need the saginaw pump.

I never found a new one with 2 returns, maybe borgeson may have one, I can't remember. I came to the conclusion that you would have to get a used housing with 2 inlets and install a new pump.

Edited by BackInBlack - 12-June-2017 at 11:56PM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GranTorinoSport Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-June-2017 at 4:45AM
What pump are you using in your serpentine set up?

I was going to go serpentine also, I had just assumed any press fit Saginaw pump would accept a press fit serpentine pulley (I am specifically looking at the March brand standard set up, not their super fancy single serpentine).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BackInBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-June-2017 at 4:59AM
These guys have a new kit called the Wraptor.

https://www.cvfracing.com/351c-351M-400-serpentine-conversion-kits-s/168.htm

Its bascially a GM LS setup modified for the 351C.  So it uses the GM type2 pump with a remote reservior.  The Beast kit and v-belt kit had problems with the AC compressor sitting to high which hit the hood.   I'm kinda the test guinea pig for this new kit.  I have had some install and missing part problems since I got probably the first one off production. 

It swaps everything around which required me to rewire and route the electrical and the AC plumbing.  Since I was removing and replacing it all anyway; it didn't really matter much other than the aggrevation and time.   I tried to get them to stick with the standard ford layout, but they are trying to keep costs down and use as many common parts across all the kits.  Andy is using their Beast kit.  He had to modify his compressor and the kit to get the AC compressor to not interfere with the hood.  I didn't want to bother with that and I wanted the spring tensioner on the single belt setup.

I'll add more info on my project page.

Basically...I started down the path with the Saginaw pump and one-wire alternator change out...then changed my mind and went with a kit.   So I have the parts, looking to sell.  I can't find a "classifieds" on our forum.  Looking to recoup some costs...my loss hopefully helps someone on the forum.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GranTorinoSport Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-June-2017 at 5:06AM
Borgeson has a hydroboost pump, P/N 800323 for $166.

They say it is a new pump!

I've had some crap rebuilt products in the past, that is why I'm so leary about them.

Oh, and there are new pumps available in a slightly higher class from PST Motorsports, but these are $450 pumps that have external reservoirs.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GranTorinoSport Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-June-2017 at 5:29AM
Originally posted by BackInBlack BackInBlack wrote:


Basically...I started down the path with the Saginaw pump and one-wire alternator change out...then changed my mind and went with a kit.   So I have the parts, looking to sell.  I can't find a "classifieds" on our forum.  Looking to recoup some costs...my loss hopefully helps someone on the forum.


Down in the lower quadrant of the main forum page there are the Classified sections - one is "Parts for Sale/Trade" which would seem the most logical section to post your parts you'd like to sell.

I have different categories for the various types of sale ads, and also to keep the large list of ebay and craigslist items from clogging up people trying to sell... brackets and pumps!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BackInBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-June-2017 at 5:51AM
Originally posted by GranTorinoSport GranTorinoSport wrote:

Borgeson has a hydroboost pump, P/N 800323 for $166.

They say it is a new pump!

I've had some crap rebuilt products in the past, that is why I'm so leary about them.

Oh, and there are new pumps available in a slightly higher class from PST Motorsports, but these are $450 pumps that have external reservoirs.


Good...I thought I remembered see one for Borgeson.

Also, Lares does do a good job with reman units.  In my experience, they are one of the best reman sources.   Thats why I got the Lares pump...low cost...and still good quality.   I didnt want to invest to much in new stuff until I knew exactly all the details and parts of the switchover.  

Thanks for the classified path...not sure why I missed it.  I searched using the search utility and for some reason didn't return that section.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BackInBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-June-2017 at 5:56AM
Originally posted by GranTorinoSport GranTorinoSport wrote:

Borgeson has a hydroboost pump, P/N 800323 for $166.

They say it is a new pump!

I've had some crap rebuilt products in the past, that is why I'm so leary about them.

Oh, and there are new pumps available in a slightly higher class from PST Motorsports, but these are $450 pumps that have external reservoirs.


Oh yeah...PST is good stuff.   The CVF racing belt kit reservoir didn't accommodate hydroboost.  I was bummed by that and complained to them.  Dont think they are gonna offer a different reservoir.  I ended buying a PST reservoir because it was the only one I found that had separate returns for hydroboost and power steering.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GranTorinoSport Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-June-2017 at 6:11AM
Originally posted by BackInBlack BackInBlack wrote:

Originally posted by GranTorinoSport GranTorinoSport wrote:

Borgeson has a hydroboost pump, P/N 800323 for $166.

They say it is a new pump!

I've had some crap rebuilt products in the past, that is why I'm so leary about them.

Oh, and there are new pumps available in a slightly higher class from PST Motorsports, but these are $450 pumps that have external reservoirs.


Oh yeah...PST is good stuff.   The CVF racing belt kit reservoir didn't accommodate hydroboost.  I was bummed by that and complained to them.  Dont think they are gonna offer a different reservoir.  I ended buying a PST reservoir because it was the only one I found that had separate returns for hydroboost and power steering.


You have a PST setup? Where did you mount the external reservoir and how do you like it???
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BackInBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-June-2017 at 6:36AM
So far very happy with the PST reservoir.  Has a built in filter, excellent construction, baffled, has hydroboost return,etc etc...

You get what you pay for I guess.  It wasn't cheap but I feel it was worth it for the quality and features you get in it.




This was the only place I could get it fit.   I tried everything.  I made a nice aluminum bracket for hte engine to hold it...didn't fit.  Tried making a bracket for inner fender well...looked like crap...coudn't fit on firewall (which is a bad location anyway) no room.  I will have to relocate the radiator overflow. 



the CVF resevior was way to tall after putting adapters and 90 elbows to route the lines.  So tall it wouldn't let the hood close.




Edited by BackInBlack - 13-June-2017 at 6:39AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GranTorinoSport Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-June-2017 at 6:57AM
That looks really nice, but I do see your technical problem with having to relocate the radiator overflow.

I see you have one return line going forward to a cooler.

It begs the question I have not thought about until I saw the pic:

If you have two return lines (hydroboost and PS), wouldn't each return line require its own cooler?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BackInBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-June-2017 at 7:14AM
What Ive researched said they do not need 2 coolers.   The power Steering generates the most fluid flow and heat.   What I learned was...just run the power steering return through the cooler.   I'm sure there are some that would argue or may have a purist perspective.

Basically the cooler needs to cool the fluid...if you dont have enough volume through the cooler (meaning two small coolers) then you simply upsize the single cooler to drop the temp enough.

I'm using the stock cooler for now until I can take temp measurements.   I can always put in a larger cooler later if I find it needs more.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Inkara1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-November-2021 at 11:16AM
I have a few questions...

If I get a HB unit out of an Astro, will it come with the rod needed for between the HB and the master cylinder if I pull it from a vehicle in the junkyard? And is that rod the right length?

Can I continue to use my current Gran Torino master cylinder (or a new/reman one) for disc front/drum rear? Or does something need to be modified? Or if I have to change the MC to something else entirely, what do I need for disc/drum?
1972 Gran Torino station wagon, light blue, 351C 2V, prior owner upgraded to 4V (2V heads), originally had a C4 but prior owner changed to C6 for some reason.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aquartlow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-November-2021 at 11:48AM
The rod will be behind the Astro's "stepped" bore master cylinder. You will need to use a "shallow bore" master cylinder, a Ford MC will not have this feature at least not one intended for a Torino application. It may take some searching, but I bet there is a shallow bore disc/drum MC but it will be a GM design/look. Now with that said, you could get a new pushrod made/fabbed up that would allow the deeper bore Ford MC to physically fit just not sure of GM HB to Ford MC mounting stud measurements. Hope this helps
www.supermotors.net/22468
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Inkara1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-November-2021 at 8:03PM
The other question... Will I have clearance issues with the Borgeson pump and the air conditioner compressor, either physically fitting or with being able to remove the cap and add fluid?

Also, I see from posts here about a need to grind on the mounting bracket for the pump. Once I grind it, can I bolt on the pump with a pulley and have the pulley line up so I can install the belt?

Or, if I keep my current pump, could I use a Y fitting instead of a T fitting to alleviate some of the issue of back pressure because the fluid would have to make less of a turn?
1972 Gran Torino station wagon, light blue, 351C 2V, prior owner upgraded to 4V (2V heads), originally had a C4 but prior owner changed to C6 for some reason.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aquartlow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-November-2021 at 5:55AM
Never dealt with a small block and Saginaw PS pump install or having to use the Thompson/Ford pump with a T or Y fitting. The fitting "deal" has been done by others with success, I doubt using a "T" or a "Y" will make much of a difference due to it being in the return hose. 
www.supermotors.net/22468
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mr.Vegasmax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-March-2022 at 2:42AM

Raybestos MC36397 Professional Grade Brake Master Cylinder


$28.74
& FREE Returns
Correct for the stock replacement 1" bore 73 Torino and other Fords w/ power front disc brakes.
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patchel73 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote patchel73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-April-2022 at 1:00AM
Important info from another thread. The firewall mounting holes changed at some point around 1974. I think a Mark V from 75 ( I actually know where there is one ) will fit the later Gran Torinos, but not earlier? ... I like the astro trick tho !

Gran Torinos ROCK
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