1972 351C starter? |
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russosborne
Senior Member Joined: 01-January-2015 Location: Glendale AZ Status: Offline Points: 664 |
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Posted: 20-May-2015 at 9:49PM |
It's been a long time (30 + years) since I had to change a starter on a Cleveland.
I don't have to do so now, but I was just looking online for Cleveland stuff at Summit Racing and they list the same starter for a 302/351W/351C. Although I have seen other stuff they list for a Cleveland that no way will fit one. As do several other places. I really seem to remember that the Cleveland took an entirely different starter than the Windsor. Like 3 mounting bolts vs 2. Am I screwed up here or is Summit? It would really open up choices if I am wrong. Thanks, Russ |
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IndyLTD I I
Member Joined: 01-March-2015 Location: Shelbyville, IN Status: Offline Points: 51 |
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Yes the 351 C uses same starter only difference is manual or automatic transmission. The 351m/400/429/460 starters are different, they have 1 threaded mounting ear. The FE (390,427,428) engines use a 3 bolt mount if my memory serves me correctly.
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Lee Virden
1978 LTD II S |
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russosborne
Senior Member Joined: 01-January-2015 Location: Glendale AZ Status: Offline Points: 664 |
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Getting old bites.
I really thought the C had a different one. guess that means I can get one of the high torque starters at some point for it. Which is a good thing, if my mind lasts that long. Thanks, Russ |
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BadHabit351
Senior Member Joined: 21-June-2013 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 217 |
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I have a starter from a 1995 Mustang on my 393C. Higher torque and more header clearance. All it takes is a simple wiring change (no modifications).
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1973/72 Gran Torino Sport
1971 Torino GT convertilble 2013 Ford Fusion 2004 Ford SuperDuty 2013 Mustang GT |
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russosborne
Senior Member Joined: 01-January-2015 Location: Glendale AZ Status: Offline Points: 664 |
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Thanks.
Wiring isn't a problem for me. It's one of the few things I still enjoy in life. Another thing to add to the "someday" list. Are you using a stock starter? Saving money is always a good thing, if I don't have to buy an aftermarket one it would be nice. Just don't know how the stock ones compare torque wise. Russ |
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BadHabit351
Senior Member Joined: 21-June-2013 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 217 |
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I bought a high dollar aftermarket starter. I had my motor "kick-back" and it stripped out the plastic (!!!) sun gear. I went to O'Reilly's and bought a stock starter for the 1995 Mustang 5.0L (about $75) and it's done a great job. My 393 is 10:1 compression and I run 12 degrees initial timing. The starter turns it over effortlessly. It's a poor mans high torque mini starter. Prior to this swap, I had to remove the passenger header to service the starter (which got burned up because of header heat). Now I can swap with no issue...and dropped 8-10 lbs in the process.
Wiring change: Swap the battery cable to the starter to the battery side of the inner fender solenoid (so it's a constant hot). The make up a 12-14 gauge wire from the "switched side" of the solenoid to the solenoid on the starter. That's it. |
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1973/72 Gran Torino Sport
1971 Torino GT convertilble 2013 Ford Fusion 2004 Ford SuperDuty 2013 Mustang GT |
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aquartlow
Senior Member Joined: 19-December-2011 Location: Summerfield, Fl Status: Offline Points: 2271 |
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Yep, those PMGR starters are a great upgrade, especially when CR's go over 9.5 to 1. Even the factory Motorcraft/Ford PGMR's have some plastic internal parts (opened/cleaned up a '96 F350 sourced 460 starter before installing it in my Ranchero). LOTS of header clearance as you mentioned as well when having a PMGR installed.
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www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires. No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t. Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone. |
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BadHabit351
Senior Member Joined: 21-June-2013 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 217 |
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I figured if the $300 starter had plastic, then why not just buy the parts store starter for 1/4 the price. At least it isn't all that expensive when they "pop".
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1973/72 Gran Torino Sport
1971 Torino GT convertilble 2013 Ford Fusion 2004 Ford SuperDuty 2013 Mustang GT |
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BadHabit351
Senior Member Joined: 21-June-2013 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 217 |
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Dang...they've gone up to $125. Still cheaper than the performance ones.
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1973/72 Gran Torino Sport
1971 Torino GT convertilble 2013 Ford Fusion 2004 Ford SuperDuty 2013 Mustang GT |
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Rockatansky
Senior Member Joined: 30-July-2010 Location: On The Road Status: Offline Points: 6072 |
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72 GT Ute
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aquartlow
Senior Member Joined: 19-December-2011 Location: Summerfield, Fl Status: Offline Points: 2271 |
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[QUOTE=Rockatansky]
http://www.dbelectrical.com/c-1126-50-liter.aspx[/QUOTE]
I had issues with the Db starter I purchased(wouldn't fully engage after a couple of weeks of use, grinding the flex-plate teeth got old QUICK). Hopefully for others, the Db starter issues were a fluke, or maybe just my luck (2 starters did the exact same thing, the reason I went & bought a JY '96 F350 starter with no more issues). Still have the brand new Db replacement sitting on my shelf, if ever the used Motorcraft gives a hint of a problem. I will say Db was great about handling the 2 warranty replacements, quick and easy, can't say anything bad about their customer service.
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www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires. No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t. Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone. |
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BadHabit351
Senior Member Joined: 21-June-2013 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 217 |
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My brother in-law had issues with a starter purchased from them as well. That's why I went to the parts store to get one when my CVR starter took a dump.
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1973/72 Gran Torino Sport
1971 Torino GT convertilble 2013 Ford Fusion 2004 Ford SuperDuty 2013 Mustang GT |
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lynchster
Senior Member Joined: 07-January-2006 Location: Pennsylvania Status: Offline Points: 2150 |
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That's useful information.
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Chuck
72 Gran Torino Sport 13 Taurus SHO "Mr Pig" |
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Rockatansky
Senior Member Joined: 30-July-2010 Location: On The Road Status: Offline Points: 6072 |
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yup I'd rather have a used OEM part than new aftermarket most of the time I hope that beauty I'm not sure where it is works at least as long as it's been sitting now
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72 GT Ute
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aquartlow
Senior Member Joined: 19-December-2011 Location: Summerfield, Fl Status: Offline Points: 2271 |
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I really hope I never have to find out . The extra starter did do "a ride-along" to Dawsonville and back last month, figured if I had it along I wouldn't need it. Coulda kept 1/2 dozen cars on the road with all the 500lbs of stuff/tools I loaded in the back of my Ranchero , anticipating a problem and never wanting to be stuck on the side of the road(yeah, I have issues).
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www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires. No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t. Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone. |
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ilyes
Senior Member Joined: 09-January-2010 Location: Philadelphia PA Status: Offline Points: 3782 |
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Sounds great, the stock starter is about 1/8" away from the headers on mine, gonna swap that out quick.
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aquartlow
Senior Member Joined: 19-December-2011 Location: Summerfield, Fl Status: Offline Points: 2271 |
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Sorry I went off-topic with my last post. Here is a pic of the size differences between two Ford 460/auto starters, easy to tell which one will yield more header clearance. The PMGR starter on the right for the win.
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www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires. No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t. Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone. |
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SocalTorino
Senior Member Joined: 09-September-2011 Location: SOCAL Status: Offline Points: 344 |
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Hi, doing some cpr on this topic,
My starter is starting to fail and is over heating with the long tubes. I want to switch to the smaller 95 5.0 starter to free up some space to help with the heat. But I’m having trouble understanding the wire route change Want to understand it’s before buying the starter My car is a stock 1972 351 Cj 4 speed Also Do I buy the automatic or 5 speed starter for the 95 Mustang 5.0 Edited by SocalTorino - 18-April-2018 at 6:41AM |
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aquartlow
Senior Member Joined: 19-December-2011 Location: Summerfield, Fl Status: Offline Points: 2271 |
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Dang, that must be some CPR, resuscitation at the 2.5 year mark . If you look at pic above, the PMGR has is a "pigtail" wire at about the 4 o'clock position, this wire goes where the original large starter wire went on the fender mounted starter solenoid. The main/larger starter wire switches sides on the fender mounted solenoid(battery side), the starter's solenoid has battery voltage via this larger cable at all times. You can remove the fender mounted solenoid and do all the wiring terminations at the starter but the FM solenoid lends itself to easily "hook up" other electrical connections is needed in the future. If you purchase the Db Electrical starter, a wiring diagram is included as well as the wire/terminals needed for the conversion.
Edited by aquartlow - 18-April-2018 at 7:22AM |
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www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires. No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t. Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone. |
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Rockatansky
Senior Member Joined: 30-July-2010 Location: On The Road Status: Offline Points: 6072 |
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is this diagram also correct?
https://www.cjponyparts.com/tech-mini-starter/a/155/ i've heard of schematics out there that will run the starter all day after you let off the key |
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72 GT Ute
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SocalTorino
Senior Member Joined: 09-September-2011 Location: SOCAL Status: Offline Points: 344 |
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LoL old post need love too.
Cool thanks that really helped!! |
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BadHabit351
Senior Member Joined: 21-June-2013 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 217 |
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Both of those diagrams are the same and correct. More than likely what's happening with the "run the stater all day after you let off the key" is that starter solenoid is hanging up on the starter. There is no way that anyone with any mechanical ability can wire this wrong.
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1973/72 Gran Torino Sport
1971 Torino GT convertilble 2013 Ford Fusion 2004 Ford SuperDuty 2013 Mustang GT |
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BadHabit351
Senior Member Joined: 21-June-2013 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 217 |
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There is some modification to use this starter on your 4 speed. I'll check this out and get back to you shortly. The 5.0L starter is the same for auto & 5 speed...which fits auto in our cars, IIRC.
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1973/72 Gran Torino Sport
1971 Torino GT convertilble 2013 Ford Fusion 2004 Ford SuperDuty 2013 Mustang GT |
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BadHabit351
Senior Member Joined: 21-June-2013 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 217 |
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Found the info...if you have the 164 tooth flywheel; then you can't use the 5.0L PMGR starter from a parts store. The 164 tooth flywheel uses a different depth than the 157 tooth.
Pretty sure you have a 164 tooth flywheel which you would need this starter: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/fms-m11000mt164 or this one https://www.summitracing.com/parts/pwm-9604
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1973/72 Gran Torino Sport
1971 Torino GT convertilble 2013 Ford Fusion 2004 Ford SuperDuty 2013 Mustang GT |
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