AC question - accumilator |
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Eliteman76
Admin Group Joined: 20-March-2006 Location: Nebraska, USA Status: Offline Points: 5044 |
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Posted: 18-June-2015 at 4:01AM |
So, the AC thread was locked so I wanted to post this question:
Aside from my conversion which I'm still having teething issues on, I got to thinking I am wondering if the AC shop was incorrect in suggesting to delete what they referred to as a muffler. I'm beginning to wonder if in fact I deleted the accumulator from the system... I found this image of a stock AC system from one of the cars here and have been wondering if this is part of my issue for the compressor not cycling rapid enough. I am going to take my car into the shop that helped with my hoses and hard lines for the conversion but I wanted to get some feedback from the forum on this. Before I make the next leap on the AC system I want to see if I can get the AC system fully working normally without issues so my experience can be of benefit to others to avoid the trials I've gone through to update to a modern compressor and 134a refrigerant. |
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Andrew:GTS.ORG admin, '72 Q code 5 speed Restomod
Pondering: #99Problems |
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Regul8r
Admin Group Moderator Joined: 26-December-2007 Location: Sarasota FL Status: Offline Points: 6624 |
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Andy, which thread?
I'll unlock it and move this there. |
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Carl Corey (Moderator/Event Coordinator) Contact ANYTIME!
1976 Ford Elite "Lola Mae" 97 Suzuki Intruder 1400 US Army Retired |
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Eliteman76
Admin Group Joined: 20-March-2006 Location: Nebraska, USA Status: Offline Points: 5044 |
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http://forum.grantorinosport.org/a-c-question-retrofit-info_topic5687.html
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Andrew:GTS.ORG admin, '72 Q code 5 speed Restomod
Pondering: #99Problems |
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Eliteman76
Admin Group Joined: 20-March-2006 Location: Nebraska, USA Status: Offline Points: 5044 |
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Sorry on my phone. It's a stickyed topic. 72-76 tech
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Andrew:GTS.ORG admin, '72 Q code 5 speed Restomod
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Nomadlife
Member Joined: 22-February-2015 Location: Missouri Status: Offline Points: 85 |
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Andy, If the item you deleted is the object in the circle, then yes that would be a mistake. I used to work as an AC Tech (different life, and I was never a vehicle tech, but I did a number of systems). All of the ASC techs I spoke to told me that if the system was open for any time, they recommended replacement of the accumulator, and of course the drier. What I have heard from some old timers who did some of the first conversions, were that if you converted over to 134A, it would not pump out as cold as before unless you upsized the condenser (I have not tested the theory, but it would make sense that if the heat exchange is occurring but not pulling enough delta, that a larger condenser would help). Now, you saying that your compressor is not cycling rapid enough; are you meaning that it is:- a/ compressor runs too long (not a short cycle), or b/ that it stays off too long (does not cycle back quickly enough)? This could be a completely different issue than an accumulator, as the modern compressor may have a "short cycle safety" which prevents it from "cycling too rapidly" - (the time between turning off to turning back on - which can damage compressors), and so you would need to adjust the droop (the point where the compressor turns off - i.e. allow it to take the cabin temp further down, to compensate for the longer cycle time). I hope this helps, let me know if you need more info. |
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Marilyn - '72 Ranchero 500 - known her since I was born, and traveled across the states in her; first in the back, then as the driver. Under restoration (and a little modification)
James |
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Eliteman76
Admin Group Joined: 20-March-2006 Location: Nebraska, USA Status: Offline Points: 5044 |
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Nomad thanks for the input.
My issue is not cycling enough. When the compressor is running it's getting the vent temps down but cycle times are far to wide so the cabin starts to hear back up. Now that we are getting some higher temps I've been wanting to check the pressures and see based off things how the system is operating. I've questioned if I've added too much oil but I went off the factory specs for replacement of all parts. The condenser is a parallel flow 4 pass unit that is actually the same size as oem for our cars. It was the largest I found and made fit with custom hard lines to match the oem layout. I found the oem dryer was better suited over aftermarket because it was set up for the orientation I wanted, I merely mounted it on the passenger side instead of it being on the driver side location. My progress thread should have details for reference. I've had doubts about the charge level but I went conservative based off the conversion factor I was given as I didn't want the head pressures rocketing thru the roof. |
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Andrew:GTS.ORG admin, '72 Q code 5 speed Restomod
Pondering: #99Problems |
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Nomadlife
Member Joined: 22-February-2015 Location: Missouri Status: Offline Points: 85 |
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What is the time between?
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Marilyn - '72 Ranchero 500 - known her since I was born, and traveled across the states in her; first in the back, then as the driver. Under restoration (and a little modification)
James |
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Eliteman76
Admin Group Joined: 20-March-2006 Location: Nebraska, USA Status: Offline Points: 5044 |
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I'll let you know tomorrow. I want to say at least 50 seconds.
http://vid80.photobucket.com/albums/j167/Eliteman76/Videos/GTS%20-%20AC%20conversion%207-21-14%20-%20charging%20video%201_zpsupyaaegk.mp4 Here's a video clip. |
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Andrew:GTS.ORG admin, '72 Q code 5 speed Restomod
Pondering: #99Problems |
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Nomadlife
Member Joined: 22-February-2015 Location: Missouri Status: Offline Points: 85 |
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Okay so I watched the video on your thread, and your cycle time is 29 seconds.
After reading your thread about what you did with your A/C, I think I have the answer as to why you are having issues. Difficult to accurately diagnose using 1 180 second vid, and text with pics, but here goes.... What I think is the problem is that you are hitting safety limits - which I can only guess is due to the upsize of the compressor - it is pulling down low (which a larger compressor would do since it is designed for a larger system, and therefore is taking pressures below specs) - this is the part where being there would help, just like you can tell a fuel filter clogged easy when in the seat, not so much when over phone. I hope this helps...if I didn't know that you had put a larger compressor on, I would swear that you were undercharged, the way it sucks down fast, and then kicks off early. You didn't really say, was the condenser smaller than the original? I only saw where you were not able to get the larger size you wanted. Hope this helps |
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Marilyn - '72 Ranchero 500 - known her since I was born, and traveled across the states in her; first in the back, then as the driver. Under restoration (and a little modification)
James |
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Eliteman76
Admin Group Joined: 20-March-2006 Location: Nebraska, USA Status: Offline Points: 5044 |
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James-
Thanks for this. I lost track of this post, but it was an under-charge situation and I adjusted the point on my cycling switch. Combination of the two didn't help. Also, at that time, I was pulling off small cans. One day I'll buy a robynaire machine with a scale and 30# tank. Thinking because I screwed up and didn't purge the lines I pulled in air every time I swapped cans. I swapped out to a serp belt drive and new compressor. Right now, thinking I need a fan or pair of fans moving more air over the condenser. |
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Andrew:GTS.ORG admin, '72 Q code 5 speed Restomod
Pondering: #99Problems |
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sj_mr2
Member Joined: 22-October-2016 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 72 |
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Are you able to get a guage set to get some pressure readings? I do a/c for a living on modern cars. May be able to get some insight into what is going on. if you suspect a fan issue, run cool water from a hose over the condenser to see if the system works properly then.
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Clayton
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Eliteman76
Admin Group Joined: 20-March-2006 Location: Nebraska, USA Status: Offline Points: 5044 |
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Yes, I have a gauge set. Last June before powertour I got pressures inline with the temp pressure charts.
Right now I just don't think there is enough air movement over the condenser. I will say two other factors are at play thinking about it: Heat absorption from the exhaust coming up through the floor pan. Small issues with weather seals and glass adjustment. But, to get back to things at hand, I did run over things when I pulled vacuum and recharged the system. I wish I would have noted it better on the dials. I was using this reference chart during the process, and a .85 reduction factor when going from R12 to R134a. The original system on the 72-67 cars were designed for 4lbs 8oz of refrigerant. I also had completely flushed out the system from my first R134a retrofit from suspected excessive oil in the system, so I started from scratch for the oil charge which also seemed to run better this time around. Right now, the car is in storage and with the tamps out, i'd not be able to honestly get a good pressure / temp reading due to temps here expected to be 8°-18°F for the next week in Nebraska. BTW, thank you for the replies guys. I really appreciate it, as I am trying to probably be a bit too methodical about compiling info for retrofits on our cars.
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Andrew:GTS.ORG admin, '72 Q code 5 speed Restomod
Pondering: #99Problems |
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aquartlow
Senior Member Joined: 19-December-2011 Location: Summerfield, Fl Status: Offline Points: 2270 |
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What are you running for a fan(s), I have had excellent service from my dual electrics, even in central Florida's 100 degree/100% humidity summers.
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www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires. No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t. Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone. |
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Eliteman76
Admin Group Joined: 20-March-2006 Location: Nebraska, USA Status: Offline Points: 5044 |
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Todd, I am running a '77 400 7 blade HD cooling fan from a '77-78 T-bird I parted many moons ago, with a clutch.
Are you using like a Taurus 3.8 V6 dual fan setup? I was looking at going to the Mark 8 style.
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Andrew:GTS.ORG admin, '72 Q code 5 speed Restomod
Pondering: #99Problems |
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Power Surge
Senior Member Joined: 06-March-2016 Location: Palm Coast, FL Status: Offline Points: 542 |
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Did you ever put the accumulator back in? You definitely need that. The accumulator is your filter, drier, and storage tank for freon. If you don't have that tank, you don't have the proper freon amount circulating when the system is running.
Keep in mind that if you've converted to R134, you don't put the same amount in as you do with R12. You need to put 80% of the R12 charge amount in. These older systems also don't work like modern AC systems. The compressor should run all the time. There is no high/low pressure switch like modern systems. The only electrical cutoff for the compressor is an ambient temp sensor behind the grille, that turns the AC off under 40 degrees. I'm really curious why your compressor is cycling at all.
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Sal Mennella
73 GTS 351 CJ 75 Cougar XR7 73 Ranchero - 5.0 Coyote swap - in progress Past Torinos - 72 Gran Torino, 75 Gran Torino, 75 Elite |
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aquartlow
Senior Member Joined: 19-December-2011 Location: Summerfield, Fl Status: Offline Points: 2270 |
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Hey Andrew, I am using a factory dual electric fan assembly out of a '96 Ford Windstar, I tried using a Mark VIII cooling fan but it just would not fit with my engine/3 core aluminum radiator. I usually do not have the smaller(14") secondary fan running unless I have the A/C on(fan motors are wired to individual fan controllers that turn each fan on when A/C compressor is engaged), the larger (16")primary fan handles 90% of the cooling duties all by itself. Fit is really good on our radiators, just a little bit of trimming is needed for upper/lower radiator hoses and A/T cooling fittings on the radiator and make tabs for the upper/lower radiator clips(seen in 3rd pic). Here is a couple of pics, I can tell you this is one of the best upgrades I have done, although it does take a bit of wiring and an upgrade to a 3G alternator(a great upgrade all by itself). If you want another option for a 2-speed single fan assembly, check out one for a '95-'97 T-bird/Cougar. These are A LOT easier to find in a wrecking yard but probably best to buy an aftermarket Dorman unit. I apologize for not using your name and/or recognizing you in my last reply, no disrespect intended .
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www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires. No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t. Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone. |
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aquartlow
Senior Member Joined: 19-December-2011 Location: Summerfield, Fl Status: Offline Points: 2270 |
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Andrew,
The accumulator you have circled in your previous post is basically a muffler for the suction side of the compressor(it is supposed to allow refrigerant/oil in a gaseous form back to the compressor and not a straight liquid/liquid Freon, due to the compressor not being able to compress a liquid) for that type of system using the York/Tecumseh compressor, I've opened one up, nothing but a couple tubes inside the case. My system sourced from a '76 T-bird does not use and/or never had an accumulator placed within the system, but it also used an A6 compressor. The receiver/drier (as you know) is mounted on the pressure side of the condenser. Not sure if it would be beneficial to remove the accumulator, I believe it is there to stabilize suction pulses from the compressor. As Sal (Power Surge) mentioned, the older systems aren't designed for a cycling switch/cycling compressor clutch, that feature will burn up the clutch fairly quickly. I installed a new aluminum A6 replacement compressor with new expansion valve and filter/drier during this past summer, no cycling switch just stock POA valve. I can tell you the aftermarket A6 WORKS, with vent temps @ 34 degrees, but I also use R12 .
Edited by aquartlow - 10-January-2017 at 1:52PM |
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www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires. No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t. Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone. |
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