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101stWGR View Drop Down
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    Posted: 23-July-2016 at 10:06PM
Hey Everyone,

So I have a 73 Montego with the stock worn out 400m under the hood.  As everyone knows bolted to the back it has the C6 Trans.  My question is rebuild the stock 400, or replace.  If I replace what is the easiest motor to drop in place of the 400.  I am a fairly intelligent shade tree mechanic, but find myself in a world of mess when I try to start adapting things that are not quite meant to be.  All experiences from updating my 4wd in my 71 F100 a few years back.  

If this question has already been heavily discussed could someone point me in the right direction of those posts.

Thanks!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-July-2016 at 2:22AM

I think you should rebuild the 400 (just 400, not 400M) you have.  These engines have TONS of potential if they are built correctly.  Remember, they are basically just a tall deck 351C. Unfortunately Ford never build any factory hi-po versons, so most just think of them as boat anchors. The biggest problem with the 400 was for the longest time there were no decent pistons available beyond rebuilder pistons which limited the compression ratio and also set them too far down in the hole causing detonation problems.  Now, Tim Meyer of TMeyer Inc has a couple of piston options available to get decent compression and near zero deck.  He also has some oil system mods to improve the oil system.

 
Here is one of his older builds, 400 Ford, stock heads 390hp, 450 ft-lbs:
 
 
If your engine is a stock 1973 400 it should have basically the same heads has a 351C-2V and they are superior to the 1975 and newer 400 heads (also used on a 351M).  With these heads, TMeyer's pistons and a decent cam, you can easily build a strong street motor.
 
If you are serious about building the engine, I'd recommend getting a TMeyer kit.  If you buy the parts from him, he'll steer you in the right direction on how to build the engine to meet your expectations.  I have no association to TMeyer, but I also have a 400 and have been researching for a long time about building these engines.  I have some other good sources of info I can provide to you if you want them. 
Vince

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrSmog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-July-2016 at 3:10AM
I think edelbrock even has a head/cam/intake setup for these engines now, so build that 400. It has the longest stroke of any ford V8 which translates to torque which is exactly what these big torinos/montegos/rancheros need.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-July-2016 at 3:40AM
quick history on why it's not a 400M ... the 400 came out in 1970 / 1971, there was no M
 
the 351M came out in 1975, the first time the M was used to distinguish this new 351 cubic inch engine from the other two 351 cubic inch engines already out, the 351C & the 351W. also, FWIW the exact Ford meaning of what the M stands for is unkown, if there is any meaning at all? Yes Ford did authorize printed material that uses the word Modified but there's no trail back to engineering or corporate for support. 'Modified' works because the 351M is a 'modified' 400 engine; using a shorter 3.5" stroke, unique pistons & the same connecting rods as the 400. nowadays with the resurgence many people just call them 'M blocks' along with the displacement for further explanation
 
the M block is The Lost Engine that Should've !
 
Yes the major fail was the lack of decent compression ratio, no CR = no power = no thermal efficiency = sucks, real bad. you don't have to go nuts to wake them up, get the pistons that poke their heads up near the top & it's almost impossible to not make over 400 hp, even with the worst stock (1975) 351M heads they make over 400 hp!  
 
and torque too, lots of torque
 
edit --------------- Re: Tim's 390hp build
 
in Tim's early days working with the 400 he was very conservative, I think he just wanted to get it right first, walk before run which is commendable. some builders just want to crank out huge dyno numbers & take the victory lap. I didn't understand the fairly expensive Aussie heads just to need fairly expensive dished pistons to limit CR from going nuts, just use the stock (pre 1975 or 351C-2V) open chamber heads and flat tops or very small domes to get your compression ratio. cheap & easy, that's all it takes!
 
here's a lesson in how not to build a 400, at least these days
 
 
I believe that this article came out too late as Tim Meyer was already up & running when it was done. Tim had pallets of Aussie heads & pistons on the shelf. back in the early 1970's this might've been the chit but today it's just Censored nutz. Yes he got results but you can do the same /way more using factory 351C 4V heads, TMI pistons & a moderate cam
 
check this out 799 hp / 667 tq from an M block, for a while anyway
  


Edited by Rockatansky - 24-July-2016 at 4:04AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bambithegreat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-July-2016 at 5:53AM
Interesting info.. currently thinking of doing up the 400 or replacing it also.. would like to see what you go with in the end.. project thread? :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lynchster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-July-2016 at 11:32AM
Shame you don't live closer. I swapped my 72 4V open chamber heads for a set of 70 4V quench heads. The 400 would make good use of the ports of the 4V heads.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Regul8r 2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-July-2016 at 3:35PM
yup 400 not 400M, other sites (especially the truck sites) absolutely lose their mind over this! lol
 
Not here we just pass on education.
 
As for what to do to wake it up...
FIRST ask yourself what you actually want it to do!
 
IF you just want a very reliable motor that has some oomph... cam, intake, carb and be done with it.
Want more... look into doing the above PLUS heads and other more expensive hi-po parts
 
here is the page now hosted by us that talks 35M/400...
 
Carl, Member/Admin since 07. Still the same admin/moderator REGUL8R just needed a 2nd account for more picture space.
Owner- www.CaNDeCustoms.com
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrSmog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-July-2016 at 7:15PM
sounds like closed chamber 4v heads with a cam would wake one up in a BIG way.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 500HPTorino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-July-2016 at 10:41PM
http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/hrdp-0702-ford-400m-engine-build/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 101stWGR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-July-2016 at 11:01PM
Gentlemen,

Thank you for the education, I have to admit I have spent most of my online time on a truck forum!  So I was already leaning towards keeping the original motor, but until this website I hadn't heard that much good about this engine, but I think I will build the 400, or have it built.  

The engine has a 4bl Intake on it that the prior owner installed on it along with HEI Distributor.  My goal is to have a real nice Daily Driver, with the ability to leave the Mustangs with Flowmasters sitting at the light.  I don't like anyone pulling up next to me with the same vehicle and I have to be honest I have never seen another Montego one on the road.

I emailed TMeyeric asking some questions and I look forward to hearing from him.  

Lynchster if you are serious, shoot me a quote my Sister lives in PA!  

I want to thank you all again though, I was at a loss, as I have only worked with the FE engine, and 4x4 stuff for old Fords.  Once TMeyeric gets back to me and I get home from my last hoorah in the Army I will start a project thread.  I plan on removing the vinyl top, removing the trim to clean up the lines and going back with white paint.  The interior needs very minimal work so I will have it repaired and just drive the car.  


Edited by 101stWGR - 24-July-2016 at 11:03PM
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Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-July-2016 at 2:38AM
The big thing to remember with the 400 builds is you really need the pistons to take advantage or a new cam and other mods. Buying a kit with cam, intake, valvetrain will perform poorly with rebuilder pistons.   TMeyer makes the only ones that I know of specifically for the 400, but you can also used 351C pistons if they are bushed for the 400 rods. 
 
If you want a great forum for 400 Ford tech, check this page:
 
 
You may already be a member of the above forum if you have a Ford truck, but this section is specific to the 335 series engines, mostly focused on 400s.  There is great knowledge there to help guide you through a build and they are open to people with cars having 400 engines participating. This would be a great place to start with a post to help you with your engine build. 
 
This forum is also a great resource, but more focused towards 351Cs:
 
 
As for TMeyer, I know he made a couple of forum posts lately stating he's been bombarded with calls and emails requesting tech info, then they often order parts elsewhere.  He's the expert on these engines, so I think we should be supporting him as he's come up with a lot of great parts. That said, I know if you do order parts from him, he's more than helpful.  He also has a bunch of custom cam grinds that work well with these engine.
 
He does have some spreadsheets with prices and rebuild kits on his site here:
 
 
One comment on using the 4V heads.  They do work well on 400's, but you need to buy expensive intake spacers, and exhaust headers that will work may be non-existent.  The stock 2V heads are capable of 400 horsepower and it will save you a lot of money using these heads.  But I am not sure how much power you are looking for.
 
Good luck, and keep us posted on the build.
 


Edited by 72FordGTS - 25-July-2016 at 2:40AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-July-2016 at 3:28AM
Originally posted by MrSmog MrSmog wrote:

sounds like closed chamber 4v heads with a cam would wake one up in a BIG way.
 
using the zero deck pistons, static compression ratio becomes a problem with factory closed chamber or aftermarket heads, the chambers are just too small for a 4" stroke & flat top pistons. it takes a significant dish in the piston to get the CR back down to realville
 
unless maybe you want to run E85 or serious race gas
 
factory iron D0xx 63cc chamber heads make 10.6:1 with 30 over, 3cc relief FT pistons .060" down in the hole and factory iron D1xx 66cc chamber heads make 10.25:1 ... but it's possible that the pistons are farther down more like .085" (10:1 & 9.75:1 respectively)
 
that's why the TMI zero deck pistons are so important using open chamber heads,
a 30 over TMI open chamber 400 (408) makes just over 10:1 with the stock 2V heads
 
just add cam! 
 
another old trick was to use 351C pistons but the wrist pins are different size & require the connecting rod small end to be bushed to make it work,
again no longer necessary 
 
 


Edited by Rockatansky - 25-July-2016 at 3:28AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mtburger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-July-2016 at 3:32AM
Originally posted by 72FordGTS 72FordGTS wrote:

The big thing to remember with the 400 builds is you really need the pistons to take advantage or a new cam and other mods.
 


I agree with this 100%.

The piston sits between .060 and .080 down in the hole on all these engines.

Add in .041 compressed head gasket thickness and your "Quench Height" ends up being well into the .100 to .120, depending on the specific year.

This spec (piston deck clearance plus the compressed gasket thickness = Quench Height) needs to be around .050 to .065 for it to run good on today's gas.

I would use a set of the Tim Meyer "Zero Deck" .030 over pistons, and then all the same options from mild to wild are on the table from any of the know "Cleveland" builds.

Those pistons sit between .010 and .015 down in the hole, plus the .041 gasket thickness puts it right on target, they even leave enough room to deck the block for a new gasket surface.

If you do not close that deck clearance spec down, they (400's) just do not run anywhere near their potential or even good, with serious detonation being the result, or just horrible performance when you get it to run without pinging because you have to back the timing so far off.

Thanks, Mike H.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mtburger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-July-2016 at 3:37AM
Originally posted by Rockatansky Rockatansky wrote:

Originally posted by MrSmog MrSmog wrote:

sounds like closed chamber 4v heads with a cam would wake one up in a BIG way.
 
using the zero deck pistons, static compression ratio becomes a problem with factory closed chamber or aftermarket heads, the chambers are just too small for a 4" stroke & flat top pistons. it takes a significant dish in the piston to get the CR back down to realville
 
unless maybe you want to run E85 or serious race gas
 
factory iron D0xx 63cc chamber heads make 10.6:1 with 30 over, 3cc relief FT pistons .060" down in the hole and factory iron D1xx 66cc chamber heads make 10.25:1 ... but it's possible that the pistons are farther down more like .085" (10:1 & 9.75:1 respectively)
 
that's why the TMI zero deck pistons are so important using open chamber heads,
a 30 over TMI open chamber 400 (408) makes just over 10:1 with the stock 2V heads
 
just add cam! 
 
another old trick was to use 351C pistons but the wrist pins are different size & require the connecting rod small end to be bushed to make it work,
again no longer necessary 
 
 


You just beat me in with those comments. I think we are saying exactly the same thing.

Mike H.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrSmog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-July-2016 at 4:12AM
well i was thinkin more of the low buck route, just slap a set of closed chamber heads on a stock bottom end, cam, intake and run it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-July-2016 at 4:33AM
seems like about a break-even?
 
less wrench work but closed chamber heads don't usually come along cheap, and will also need work before they're ready for service
 
4V closed chambers will need intake spacers to allow the use of a 351C manifold,
there's still no 400-4V intake available. Aussie 2V's are a straight bolt in but they don't fall off trees on this continent, and again still need quality valves, springs, guides, retainer hardware
 
but yes there are quite a few Aussie head / stock bottoms out there, unfortunately by this time all those M blocks are pretty tired & need some bottom end work anyway. bumping the CR to 10:1 on a dinosaur you know what's gonna happen
 
101stWGR, whatever you do, don't re-use the stock Ford valves! 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Bird Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-July-2016 at 10:52AM
Rockatansky wrote:
"101stWGR, whatever you do, don't re-use the stock Ford valves! "
Is it a bad thing when the valve head falls off, and then the pushrod shoots through the valve cover?
"What we do in full frontal view, is more honest than your cleaned-up mind."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrSmog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-July-2016 at 1:06PM
not to stray off, but i hear so often online about the stock 2 pc valves failin but in my 35+ years of floggin cars I have yet to have one fail and I have run some real slapped together junk yard stuff lol  I have sprayed 150 hp on 150+k mile engines too with nothin but fun results. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote unlovedford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-July-2016 at 3:48PM
Don't know if you might be interested, but one of our members has a very strong 400 that will be up for sale soon. Small cam, nice intake and carb, extremely clean and runs fantastic. Easy to just drop in yours and go.
Joe
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-July-2016 at 3:43AM
Unloved Joe has a good plan, it's always more economical to grab a piece that's already done, as far as numbers matching I wouldn't worry about losing any value & you'll still have the original motor that you can go through on a budget as deals turn up
---------------
 
yeah it's a bad thing if a pushrod comes through the valve cover but it's a Real Bad Thing when the valve head drops into the cylinder & smashes the motor to bits from the inside
---------------
 
Mr Smog, spectacles testicles wallet & watch, count your blessings it happens every day. at least a 150k miler wouldn't be a terrible loss, it'd just be a total loss but what a way to do it! 

Edited by Rockatansky - 26-July-2016 at 3:44AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 101stWGR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-July-2016 at 1:47PM
I guess that would fall into the location vs price scenario especially since I am currently overseas.  That would give me the chance to build the original motor.  Shoot me the info if you don't care, I am interested.
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Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote unlovedford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-July-2016 at 5:22AM
Actually, the engine I was talking about is not that far from Cadiz. I can put you in touch with the owner if you'd like.

We used to meet up with a bunch of friends years ago at the Land Between The Lakes by Cadiz. Out of the way place called Cedar Knob. Ever heard of it? That long, high narrow bridge that connects the lands used to give me heartburn every time I crossed it in our truck hauling a boat. Used to attempt to time it just right and haul a$$ across it before someone was coming the other way - never worked well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 101stWGR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-July-2016 at 5:22PM
I know the bridge well I touched the side with my Pontoon Trailer tire (Passing an oncoming 18 Wheeler).  It didn't blow till I was across but it did blow.  Made for a late start getting on the water!  Yeah if you don't mind, I am currently sitting in Korea so email contact would work best for me.  

On that bridge they built a new one, actually I believe Monday they started taking down the old one!

http://www.wkdzradio.com/VIDEO---Demolition-View-Of-Eggners-Ferry-Bridge/22825110


Billy

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Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ranchero Fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-July-2016 at 2:55AM
Originally posted by 101stWGR 101stWGR wrote:

I know the bridge well I touched the side with my Pontoon Trailer tire (Passing an oncoming 18 Wheeler).  It didn't blow till I was across but it did blow.  Made for a late start getting on the water!  Yeah if you don't mind, I am currently sitting in Korea so email contact would work best for me.  

On that bridge they built a new one, actually I believe Monday they started taking down the old one!

http://www.wkdzradio.com/VIDEO---Demolition-View-Of-Eggners-Ferry-Bridge/22825110


Yeah, that barge that hit it a few yrs.ago didn't take it completely down.LOL
Brian   1973 Ford Ranchero Big Block. ''THE OTHER WOMAN''
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote glennford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-July-2016 at 8:24AM
back in 1983 when I first rebuilt/built a 69 4v windsor.  The best thing I remember doing was LEARNING ENGINE MATH.  I'm not trying to dis anyone , y'all  got some great ideas, but if the math don't add up your asking for problems so do the best thing you can for yourself readup on as much as you can find and learn the "easy way" also when able to talk with an engine builder. I'm sure he (or she) will help you in your decision making.  BTW that windsor was in a 1969 mach 1 that went through the 1/4 mile in 10.56 ,not bad considering it was my first engine done   Glenn
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gnrlee01 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-July-2016 at 3:01PM
i have a completely brand new high performance (o.566 lift) cam set with valve springs, roller rockers, roller lifters, timing set, high volume oil pump, 2 sets of push rods all never opened. i also have a couple of used edelbrock 4 barrel intakesone cleaned and painted, the other one not painted.

i bought the valve train set as a complete package from summit with the intent on putting them into my 400 from another car, but i no longer have that car and i can not use them. all together i paid 1000 dollars for the set from summit and 150 dollars per each intake. i also have a small 390 cfm 4 barrel carb that i paid 200 bucks for.
if any of these can help you, let me know..shoot me an offer. i cant use them, so i am in need of selling them now.
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