Help - 1969 Cobra trans casting numbers |
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farqs29
New Member Joined: 14-July-2018 Location: Elmhurst Status: Offline Points: 16 |
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Posted: 14-July-2018 at 5:43AM |
Hello-
I'm new to this forum and new to the Torino in general. I have liked these cars for a while, but am not an expert on them yet. I have found a 69 cobra 428 CJ and the seller is telling me it is a numbers matching car. The build sheet shows a RUG-AJ trans, which is on the tag affixed to the trans, but the trans casting number looks to be C8AR (no O - which shows fairlaine/torino). When I code this out the 3rd digit A shows a generic full size ford, not the Torino/Fairlaine (O). Does this make any sense? Any info/education here would be greatly appreciated!! Thanks! One more thing... did Ford ever paint their transmissions blue? Bryan Farquhar |
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72FordGTS
Admin Group GTS.org Admin Joined: 06-September-2005 Location: Ontario, Canada Status: Offline Points: 5846 |
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This will probably help a bit.
Unless someone else chimes in, give me a day or two and I will see what I can dig up. Does he have a Marti Report for the car? This would be essential IMO.
Edited by 72FordGTS - 14-July-2018 at 1:47PM |
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Vince
1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car GTS.org Admin |
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72FordGTS
Admin Group GTS.org Admin Joined: 06-September-2005 Location: Ontario, Canada Status: Offline Points: 5846 |
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I checked the Ford Part Master Catalog for you. The RUG-AJ is correct for a 1969 Cobra with a 428-CJ and a top loader. While the transmission does list a C9OZ part number the main case should have a casting number of C8AR-7006 D. It should also have a C9OR tail shaft casting.
Good Luck. Here are some helpful links here: |
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Vince
1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car GTS.org Admin |
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farqs29
New Member Joined: 14-July-2018 Location: Elmhurst Status: Offline Points: 16 |
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Thanks for the help! Much appreciated. That is the casting number on the trans. The fact that its an A not an O threw me off...
Another question if you dont mind- did Ford paint their transmissions blue? Thanks again |
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Rockatansky
Senior Member Joined: 30-July-2010 Location: On The Road Status: Offline Points: 6072 |
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you can't go by the car line decode, it may be that the casting was designed for a full size in 68 no painted Blue transmissions from the factory
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72 GT Ute
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farqs29
New Member Joined: 14-July-2018 Location: Elmhurst Status: Offline Points: 16 |
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Thanks. The trans tag matches build sheet but not Sure why trans has been painted blue...
The car I’m looking at is R code fastback. Numbers match on block and rear end and tag matches on trans. It has build sheet and Marti report... doesn’t have original carb or ram air filter. Brittany blue original color but not the color of car now and would need paint at some point. Everything is pretty orginal, but work to be done everywhere if I ever restore it. It’s a good solid car, original metal all over and I would say it falls under “fair condition”. Definitely driveable... interior is probably a 7. I’m trying to figure out how much to pay for but I keep seeing prices that seem to be all over the place and I don’t want to get ripped off... like I said previously I am new to Cobras so I am trying to learn the market. Any thoughts on pricing for these cars??? I know each car is different just looking for any insight. Love these cars and, if it’s not this one, I will find another. Thanks!! |
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72FordGTS
Admin Group GTS.org Admin Joined: 06-September-2005 Location: Ontario, Canada Status: Offline Points: 5846 |
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I'd wager that maybe the transmission got painted by a previous owner?? Hard to say what has happened over nearly 50 years.
I am no expert on pricing on these cars, and I think it's hard for us to give a fair value without seeing the car. If the sheet metal is original and not rusted that adds a lot of value in my book. You're best bet is to do some research and see what similar cars are selling for online. Check CL and Hemmings and this will give you a better idea. What is the seller asking?
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Vince
1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car GTS.org Admin |
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farqs29
New Member Joined: 14-July-2018 Location: Elmhurst Status: Offline Points: 16 |
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I appreciate the insight and help...
I did a ton of research and called a few people to get some insight and thoughts on value . I got the seller to a place where I felt pretty good and had a local restorer join me to check the car out. We ended up making the deal at a spot that I think was fair for both of us...I pick the car this weekend! Original R Code, numbers car, original sheet metal, trunk floors etc. and interior. Pretty excited. I almost don’t want to restore it as it being original is pretty neat!!! As long as it runs... Will post details on it shortly! Thanks again... look forward to this journey |
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72FordGTS
Admin Group GTS.org Admin Joined: 06-September-2005 Location: Ontario, Canada Status: Offline Points: 5846 |
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Congrats on the purchase! It sounds like you went about the purchase the correct way and did all your homework. Please post some pics! Or better yet start a project thread.
Here's how to post pics if you need help: |
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Vince
1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car GTS.org Admin |
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TorinoJet
New Member Joined: 08-January-2024 Location: los angeles Status: Offline Points: 9 |
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In general, Ford had 5 different toploader main case castings.
C4AR-7003-A used in 1964 and possibly early 1965 applications C5AR-7006-D used in all 1965 thru 1967 applications C8AR-7006-D used in all 1968 thru 1971 applications D2AR-7006-CA used in late 1971 applications D2AR-7006-CB used in 1972 thru 1973 applications very common that ford used the same casting (engineering) number for a few years on all of their cast parts , if you are doing a concourse restoration and dates matter, next to this engineering number will be a small date code of when that part was specifically cast
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hogfiddles
Moderator Group Moderator Joined: 19-September-2016 Location: Central NY Status: Offline Points: 1509 |
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“Numbers matching” is not a Ford thing.
For Ford, it’s “Correct Part Numbers and Correct Codes, and appropriate dates-within-range codes”
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1973 Gran Torino Sport - Q code “Q-Clone” project-on-hold
1972 Gran Torino Sport - Q code new project 1972 Gran Torino - parts 1969 Torino GT - M code 95+/- mid-80's Yamaha XJ-Series (10 trophies) |
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TorinoJet
New Member Joined: 08-January-2024 Location: los angeles Status: Offline Points: 9 |
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[QUOTE=hogfiddles]“Numbers matching” is not a Ford thing.
Sure it is!!!, Numbers matching is extremely important in all Hi Performance vehicles including Ford For those who dont know already, numbers matching means the vehicles VIN number is hand stamped on the engine and it "matches" the cars VIN , Some poeple dont know that, and use the term "numbers matching" in many wrong ways. I went to look at a car for sale once, and the seller claimed numbers matching, I asked him to proove it, so he showed me the title, then opened the door and showed me the matching VIN on the door tag, I had to give him a little schooling. Also, If youre missing the cars original engine (in a car that should have a VIN stamped on the engine), but are able to source a replacement engine with appropriate casting numbers and date codes that relate to the vehicles build date, then you have a period correct engine, and its not a numbers matching vehicle Prior to 1968 Ford only stamped the vehicles VIN number on the engine on special or hi performance vehicles, like shelbys and K code Hipo Mustangs. And starting in 1968 all Ford vehicles were supposed to get their VIN (or partial VIN) stamped on the engine block . If you have a hi caliber collector Ford car, a "numbers matching" VIN to VIN engine to vehicle match , is extremely important and could raise the cars value anywhere from 20% to 50%
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RacerJames
Member Joined: 25-April-2022 Location: 86401 Status: Offline Points: 50 |
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I've been around for 50 plus years, and never heard of vins being stamped on engines in a Ford until today. I remember the aluminum tags both on one intake bolt, and the carburetors, but those had part numbers and engine info only.
Every publication I have read over the past 50 years mentions that Ford didn't "match" the engines with the chassis/body in the same way GM and Mopar did.
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'73 Torino Stock Car
'71 Mustang Stock Car 351C powered |
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72 RS 351
Senior Member Joined: 04-September-2014 Location: Knoxville TN Status: Offline Points: 2767 |
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Ditto, I never heard of a VIN being on the engine block at all. I still have my original 1972 Cleveland engine block, and my family bought the car new in 1971. I bet a lot that there is no markings on this block with the VIN number. I had this block worked at a machine shop in the 1980's, and it's been stored ever since. The others are correct, the basic model or year of production is cast into blocks, but not the VIN significant digits.
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Don
73 Ranchero "Sport 72 front end", floor shift/console, planning EFI 7000+ rpm 351-4V &4R70W 73 Ranchero GT 351C-4V &4R70W for sale later. 92 Lincoln Mark VII SE GTC, OBDII 347/4R70W |
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hogfiddles
Moderator Group Moderator Joined: 19-September-2016 Location: Central NY Status: Offline Points: 1509 |
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1. Nowhere did I say it wasn’t important I said it’s not a FORD thing. Other company’s matched numbers all over the place. 2. I have NEVER seen ANY Ford engine stamped with any VIN number to match the VIN the car it was in. 3. I said matching CODES and appropriate dates. If you got pictures to show me that Ford DID match VIN’s to vehicle and engine, by all means feel free to post them. I’d love to learn something different than 40+ yrs of ford knowledge has taught. [For those who dont know already, numbers matching means the vehicles VIN number is hand stamped on the engine and it "matches" the cars VIN , Some poeple dont know that, and use the term "numbers matching" in many wrong ways. I went to look at a car for sale once, and the seller claimed numbers matching, I asked him to proove it, so he showed me the title, then opened the door and showed me the matching VIN on the door tag, I had to give him a little schooling. Also, If youre missing the cars original engine (in a car that should have a VIN stamped on the engine), but are able to source a replacement engine with appropriate casting numbers and date codes that relate to the vehicles build date, then you have a period correct engine, and its not a numbers matching vehicle] That’s what I said, only in not so many words. Edited by hogfiddles - 09-January-2024 at 10:13AM |
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1973 Gran Torino Sport - Q code “Q-Clone” project-on-hold
1972 Gran Torino Sport - Q code new project 1972 Gran Torino - parts 1969 Torino GT - M code 95+/- mid-80's Yamaha XJ-Series (10 trophies) |
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72FordGTS
Admin Group GTS.org Admin Joined: 06-September-2005 Location: Ontario, Canada Status: Offline Points: 5846 |
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I am not disagreeing with the majority here that lots of Fords did not have the engines stamped. That said, my '72 GTS was stamped with a partial VIN by the factory on both the engine and the transmission. The engine stamp is on the a flat pad near the casting information on the back of the engine block. FWIW, it was cast at Dearborn Iron Foundry and assembled in the Oakville plant (where I assume it would have been stamped). The transmission has the partial VIN on a small area on the top of it, and I had no idea it was there until I dropped the transmission. I am wondering if it was assembly plant dependent? I am not sure why my car was stamped and so many others were not.
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Vince
1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car GTS.org Admin |
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RacerJames
Member Joined: 25-April-2022 Location: 86401 Status: Offline Points: 50 |
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I worked for a time at the Mack trucks Cement mixer facility in Utah. That experience helps me to think that your idea that it might have been assembly plant specific is on the right track. We all know that the lower production specialty cars coming from Shelby and others were specially identified at those facilities. It stands to reason that a plant manager might have chosen to imitate this process on the more specialty cars he was producing. I am picturing said manager with a self satisfied smirk on his face as he imagines us debating it in 2024.
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'73 Torino Stock Car
'71 Mustang Stock Car 351C powered |
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72 RS 351
Senior Member Joined: 04-September-2014 Location: Knoxville TN Status: Offline Points: 2767 |
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I've read of there being partial VIN numbers on Ford blocks before,
20-30 years ago. But I doubted it could be true or they should all be
marked in some way. So if some plants did it somehow for some models,
that could be nice for those few owners. It wouldn't help or effect
anyone else though, so it's a poor subject and should be forgotten. As hogfiddles
said, if an engine block had to be replaced it should be a minor thing
to care if it was the identical model of block, or just similar casting
and date codes.
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Don
73 Ranchero "Sport 72 front end", floor shift/console, planning EFI 7000+ rpm 351-4V &4R70W 73 Ranchero GT 351C-4V &4R70W for sale later. 92 Lincoln Mark VII SE GTC, OBDII 347/4R70W |
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TorinoJet
New Member Joined: 08-January-2024 Location: los angeles Status: Offline Points: 9 |
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Sorry Hogfiddles , wasnt meant to call you wrong , and yes you are right it seems other car makes did more vin stamping etc than ford so that is true
From what ive seen and learned, VIN stamping location can vary between engine blocks , what year it was at the time, and where the car was built, I am more familar with 1965 - 1970 vin stamps, 1971 and later information may vary In the early 289 hi performance vehicles only 1965 - 1967 , Ford was supposed to stamp the vehicles full VIN number on the passenger side of the block , near the front just above the oil pan rail , near the area where the ground strap bolted to the block. hard to find sometimes because it was right on the rough casting and could easily dissapear under spray paint or corrosion. Later, possibly 1968 and later? ford started to stamp the vehicles VIN or partial vin, on a machined flat surface , driverside, top of the block facing straight up, just behind the drivers side cylinder head. cant really see with engine in the car but sometimes you can reach your phone back there snap a few pics then look at the pics, or can be seen with a mirror in a stick and flashlight. As far as I know, this should be the location for all engine sizes A partial VIN would usually consist of 8 digits, 1st digit is year, 2nd digit is plant , then your last 6 digits of the VIN. So 9R458236 , would read 1969 San Jose and last 6 of VIN. transmissions , From 1965 - 1967 Ford stamped Ford toploader transmissions (only on hi performance vehicles) on the small rectangular machined area of the main case that faces the ground, 1968 and later ford stamped the 8 digit partial vin on the top of the driver side front ear of the main case. As far as automatic transmissions, I am not sure where they were stamped ? There are always exceptions. I have heard stories of no vin stamps, stamps on the back of the drivers head instead of the engine block , stamps on engine and not on transmission and vise/versa, wrong digit stampings (flip flop numbers)etc..... remember these were hand stamped by people, at a few different Ford plants. I can imagine a car built on a friday before a holiday weekend missing some things because the employees just wanted the work week to end Edited by TorinoJet - 10-January-2024 at 7:51AM |
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72 RS 351
Senior Member Joined: 04-September-2014 Location: Knoxville TN Status: Offline Points: 2767 |
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That sounds about right, reasonable, hand stamping as it was possible to.
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Don
73 Ranchero "Sport 72 front end", floor shift/console, planning EFI 7000+ rpm 351-4V &4R70W 73 Ranchero GT 351C-4V &4R70W for sale later. 92 Lincoln Mark VII SE GTC, OBDII 347/4R70W |
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72FordGTS
Admin Group GTS.org Admin Joined: 06-September-2005 Location: Ontario, Canada Status: Offline Points: 5846 |
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On my engine, it was a machined pad at the back of the block and it definitely looked hand stamped. The numbers were not lined up very well. Like mentioned about, it was the 8 digits, with the 1st digit the year, 2nd digit is plant , and the last 6 digits of the VIN.
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Vince
1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car GTS.org Admin |
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