fuel delivery problem |
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1beautifuldaughter
Member Joined: 23-February-2021 Location: Warwick ny Status: Offline Points: 46 |
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Posted: 20-April-2021 at 9:57AM |
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So the first time I took my wife for a ride in my newly acquired torino. 351 c 2v,, I go down town and put gas in it. I leave the gas station and start up the road and the car starts to die like its running out of gas. Lucky there was side street to swing into with no power steering. So I pump the gas and it starts back up , I run it a minute and it seems fine so I Drive it home without issue. I take the air cleaner off and rev the motor with a light in the carb and see plenty of fuel and the motor is running fine. So I go back out and drive it with no problems for maybe 15-20 miles. I took it on a couple of other short test drives since without issues. Today I drive the car about 5 miles and turn it off for 15 minutes, start it back up and start on my way home. On the way home it dies again and clearly is starving for fuel I manage to limp it home starting and stalling and pumping the gas . I take the top of the carb off and there is not much fuel , less than half. and I see little bubbles of fuel burping and farting around the shut off pin. I check the filter and it is clear and looks new, I take the shut off pin out and it all looks fine. I blot all the fuel out of the bowl , I crank the motor and fuel starts coming into the bowl and there are two places at the bottom that I can see the gas trying to boil. I check the pump and it seems fine I blow back into the tank and its under fuel making bubbles. everything seems fine. The motor was just up to temp with no signs of overheating. The fuel line is the factory steel routed through the front part of the motor ,not touching anything. So I am thinking its some kind of vapor lock issue? So all that being said is there some kind of known weakness on the 351c with maybe exhaust passages, ports, under the carb making things too hot? Nothing worse than something to worry about that you can't see. Hope someone can help point me in the right direction. Thanks in advance.
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72 RS 351
Senior Member Joined: 04-September-2014 Location: Knoxville TN Status: Offline Points: 2767 |
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That's a tough question, and a vapor lock or the carb would be my guess too. If it has exhaust passages open through the intake, it would be better to block those off. Those were a bad idea almost all cars had in the old days. The heat put into the intake was worse than the benefit of efficiency or later EGR functions. The Cleveland has a special valley pan under the intake, to help keep the intake cooler. But the passages in the middle of the intake, that hurts power and it does make the carburetor run hotter. I wonder what the coolant temps are, unless they are high such as 200 degrees, the carb should be able to work okay in typical weather.
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Don
73 Ranchero "Sport 72 front end", floor shift/console, planning EFI 7000+ rpm 351-4V &4R70W 73 Ranchero GT 351C-4V &4R70W for sale later. 92 Lincoln Mark VII SE GTC, OBDII 347/4R70W |
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1beautifuldaughter
Member Joined: 23-February-2021 Location: Warwick ny Status: Offline Points: 46 |
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I only have a factory temp gauge which is sitting lower than middle range. and the temp outside at the time was around 65-70. No signs of over heating and I think the cooling system is clean and doing as it should. I am perplexed . tomorrow I will try to get a temp reading under the carb. Thanks for the input.
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Rockatansky
Senior Member Joined: 30-July-2010 Location: On The Road Status: Offline Points: 6072 |
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most intakes have a heat channel in the carb pad, if somebody removed the under carb EGR plate and set the carb down on the manifold that could explain something?
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72 GT Ute
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californiajohnny
Moderator Group Joined: 05-October-2013 Location: winlock, wa Status: Offline Points: 14609 |
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kinda sounds like a vapor lock but that's not overly hot, heat soak or boil-over usually occurs after you shut off a hot engine and the heat transfers into the carb... then it's flooded when you try to restart it after it was sitting for a short time... a plastic phenolic spacer between the intake and carb usually fixes that issue may help in this case too but you said you see bubbles coming into the needle valve in the carb... you could have a fuel line leaking air ( or sucking air) into the line between the tank and pump that could cause the temp lack of fuel to the carb at times...
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JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE 74 VETTE CUSTOM 90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED 77 CELICA CUSTOM 75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED 79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED 75 VEGA V6 5 SPD 70 CHEV C10 P/U 68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION |
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Rockatansky
Senior Member Joined: 30-July-2010 Location: On The Road Status: Offline Points: 6072 |
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back in the day 1st thing to do was change out the fuel pump
and Yes i found a rust pin hole hiding at the top of the rubber hose coming off the sending unit, quick fix just move the rubber hose to seal the hole |
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72 GT Ute
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1beautifuldaughter
Member Joined: 23-February-2021 Location: Warwick ny Status: Offline Points: 46 |
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I will keep an open mind and consider all possibilities , I will say that any rust pin hole is highly un likely, Not even surface rust on anything on the car . the fuel pump looks new and pumps and holds pressure and suction on the bench. The vented gas cap looks new and the vent is open.
Last night I ran the car up to temp. and let it run for a while. I shut it off and removed the top from carb to see what was going on and found a full bowl. Now with the motor off I will say the you can burn your finger touching the carb near the base plate. and I watched the fuel in the bowl with a flash light and see little bubbles streaming up from the bottom like Ginger ale soda. Then I pressed the float down and there was plenty of fizzy fuel pressure trying to spit into the bowl. My thoughts so far are that the carb base is no hotter than its ever been since 1972, but too hot for running on modern fairy juice ?? I am reading all this about the new gas boiling at much lower temps. My 71 mustang with same motor has a hard plastic spacer plate under the carb , this is just attached directly. |
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72FordGTS
Admin Group GTS.org Admin Joined: 06-September-2005 Location: Ontario, Canada Status: Offline Points: 5848 |
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If you have an infrared temperature gun, I'd be curious to know what the temperature of the carb is. Does the fuel in your area contain ethanol? If the carb temperature is very high, these modern fuels boil much easier than old fuels. If temperature is the problem, usually a carb spacer does the trick, it made a big difference with my car. You could also make a heat shield to help keep the heat of the carb. You could also cover the fuel lines near the engine with some insulation to help keep the fuel cooler.
Based on your description, I am thinking it might be more of a temperature related problem causing the fuel to boil. Years ago, my brother's old Cutlass had fuel starvation from sucking air in the fuel lines. The symptoms occurred under heavy throttle, high load situations where lots of fuel was needed, which makes sense. In this case the line from the sending unit had a crack in it that was sucking air.
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Vince
1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car GTS.org Admin |
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Rockatansky
Senior Member Joined: 30-July-2010 Location: On The Road Status: Offline Points: 6072 |
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i think you found the problem
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72 GT Ute
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californiajohnny
Moderator Group Joined: 05-October-2013 Location: winlock, wa Status: Offline Points: 14609 |
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yes these modern fuels are crap! sounds like you need a phenolic (plastic) spacer
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JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE 74 VETTE CUSTOM 90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED 77 CELICA CUSTOM 75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED 79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED 75 VEGA V6 5 SPD 70 CHEV C10 P/U 68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION |
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72 RS 351
Senior Member Joined: 04-September-2014 Location: Knoxville TN Status: Offline Points: 2767 |
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Ditto, if I wasn't sure the reason and wanted to replace something, that would be a good try.
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Don
73 Ranchero "Sport 72 front end", floor shift/console, planning EFI 7000+ rpm 351-4V &4R70W 73 Ranchero GT 351C-4V &4R70W for sale later. 92 Lincoln Mark VII SE GTC, OBDII 347/4R70W |
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1beautifuldaughter
Member Joined: 23-February-2021 Location: Warwick ny Status: Offline Points: 46 |
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Thanks all for the input, Now that I removed the carb , I am doing a clean and freshen up of the entire engine compartment. Thats how it works, lol. So I will be thinking of all the things I can try on the way. I will see if I can get some kind of plastic spacer for the carb, I will figure out some nice way to insulate the fuel line up to the carb. I will put it all back together and check some adjustments that could cause it to run hotter, like the timing and , I pulled the plugs and they look very lean. and I will probably drop the tank since I was going to anyway to clean all the undercoat off of it and I will see if everything looks right inside with the pickup and sender. So it will be a bit of a pause here on any progress. All Ive done is work on this car since the day it arrived. Probably has not seen this much attention in the last 30 years. Hope soon I can at least drive it to a local cruise in without worries. Thanks again
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1beautifuldaughter
Member Joined: 23-February-2021 Location: Warwick ny Status: Offline Points: 46 |
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If nothing else , at least if you break down in a 72 GTS you look good doing it, : )
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Rockatansky
Senior Member Joined: 30-July-2010 Location: On The Road Status: Offline Points: 6072 |
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i wouldn't put any kind of plastic or phenolic spacer on top of an active EGR channel. you can drill, tap, plug the passages that feed the channel and then maybe use a spacer, or make / use a sufficient metal barrier plate under the spacer. if the passages are left active, that gasket needs to be exhaust rated also, a regular carb gasket will not last long installed directly onto the intake with active carb heat / EGR
if it came from the factory with no EGR spacer then it got a stainless barrier plate under the carb, FWIW the aluminum EGR plates didn't stand a chance and burned through internally and externally from the exhaust gasses coming up through there maybe use a couple of these on either side of the spacer, height permitting? this is an example of the spacer to manifold 'exhaust rated' gasket i mentioned above, not saying this is the correct gasket for your manifold, it may be IDK, just an example. notice that it's not a composite / paper carb gasket, it's made of heavy duty exhaust gasket material
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/fel-60185 Edited by Rockatansky - 23-April-2021 at 3:31PM |
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72 GT Ute
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1beautifuldaughter
Member Joined: 23-February-2021 Location: Warwick ny Status: Offline Points: 46 |
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My car does not have any kind of spacer under the carb, Just an exhaust type gasket like you say first on the manifold, then a thin sheet of stainless steel, then a paper gasket on top. I found the exhaust port that runs under the carb is blocked solid with rock hard carbon. I plan to leave it that way. I purchased a two pack of the exact 1/4inch thick gasket you show which they also call an Insulator. and I bought a new metal infused thin exhaust gasket for under it. Thank you for the help. I will let everyone know how I make out. Probably in about 4 more days and it will be 80 degrees and I will have it back together so I will put it all to the test. I still plan on dropping the tank and doing a close up inspection of the sender and related parts. Thanks Again.
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72FordGTS
Admin Group GTS.org Admin Joined: 06-September-2005 Location: Ontario, Canada Status: Offline Points: 5848 |
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EGR was not used in 1972, it came in in 1973.
FWIW, Summit has some 2bbl spacers available too. The wood spacers have the best insulating properties. |
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Vince
1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car GTS.org Admin |
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1beautifuldaughter
Member Joined: 23-February-2021 Location: Warwick ny Status: Offline Points: 46 |
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All there 2v spacers are advertised as holley 2300 and I was told they won't work on motorcraft 2100 series , I think maybe they wood but don't know.
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aquartlow
Senior Member Joined: 19-December-2011 Location: Summerfield, Fl Status: Offline Points: 2271 |
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I did not read through all the replies, so excuse me if any of this has already been mentioned. When I first put my Ranchero on the road I fought vapor lock issues....bad issues. I tried the phenolic spacer, I tried a better Edelbrock 1726 mechanical fuel pump, wrapping fuel lines anywhere near the exhaust with heat shield, ran a fuel bypass so excess fuel could be set back to fuel tank, installed "bathtub" intake gasket made for propane 460 applications, increased ignition timing, initial and mechanical advance rate, modified my air filter housing that draws air from my hood scoop instead of underhood air, installed 160' t-stat, dual electric fans with all aluminum radiator-just to reduce engine heat in any way, had headers coated. Everything I did helped just a bit but didn't cure it. Once I removed the mechanical fuel pump and installed my Edelbrock 1791 electric fuel pump, ALL vapor lock issues ceased. I came to the conclusion that todays fuels are much more susceptible to vapor lock when a vacuum is placed upon it as compared to gasoline mixtures/blends of the past. How long has it been since a carburetor or a mechanical pump was used for supplying an automotive gasoline engine? Just like when the government took sulphur out of diesel fuel or lead out of gasoline, then the fuel makers wanted to sell it back to us in one form or another. If the gasoline manufacturers don't feel there is a need to worry about a vapor lock issue in new vehicles and can lower or change the quality and still meet some kind of government standard, you can bet they will try to save a penny at every chance. Sorry for the long reply, hopefully it will be somewhat helpful.
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www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires. No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t. Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone. |
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72 RS 351
Senior Member Joined: 04-September-2014 Location: Knoxville TN Status: Offline Points: 2767 |
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Those are good thoughts, carburetors with very low fuel pressure is a recipe for vapor lock. The bad gas makes it more possible for sure.
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Don
73 Ranchero "Sport 72 front end", floor shift/console, planning EFI 7000+ rpm 351-4V &4R70W 73 Ranchero GT 351C-4V &4R70W for sale later. 92 Lincoln Mark VII SE GTC, OBDII 347/4R70W |
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1beautifuldaughter
Member Joined: 23-February-2021 Location: Warwick ny Status: Offline Points: 46 |
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The only time I ever had a vapor lock was with 1960 lincoln in a parade , It was 100 degrees outside and I was idling and hardly moving. I don't understand why my car would die while driving it up the road. and why it would start back up and get me home. The first time this happened I was driving up a slight incline and it quit, I rolled off the road and started it back up and drove it through three towns home. I read somewhere else about solving the problem with an electric pump in the rear. I don't understand how that would change the pressure in the bowl, ?? anyway I appreciate the input even though its hard to read after just coming up out of the garage after hours of just wrapping my fuel line from the pump to the carb. The car is A/C and the only way to wrap in well was to remove it which meant removing the Distributor . Had a real fun time getting it back in. Its hard for me to wrap my head around why the pump would not be able to keep the bowl full. anyway I will have done a couple of considerable things with spacers and wrap and next on to the gas tank to see if anything wrong. Its very frustrating fixing things you don't understand, And I really appreciate all the advice because I know these are problems with many possibilities. I hope there's some way out of this problem. Thanks
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72 RS 351
Senior Member Joined: 04-September-2014 Location: Knoxville TN Status: Offline Points: 2767 |
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It might be interesting to have a pressure gauge at the inlet side of the carb, to see how it varies with rpm etc. An electric pump I would assume should have a linear predictable pressure at all times. The manual pump will have fluctuating pressure, if it's weak at all there can be times that not much fuel is pushing on the inlet seat. I'm not suggesting adding a gauge, I would install the spacer first, phenolic is what most of the good kind are made of.
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Don
73 Ranchero "Sport 72 front end", floor shift/console, planning EFI 7000+ rpm 351-4V &4R70W 73 Ranchero GT 351C-4V &4R70W for sale later. 92 Lincoln Mark VII SE GTC, OBDII 347/4R70W |
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Rivercrest
Member Joined: 07-December-2019 Location: Manitoba Canada Status: Offline Points: 175 |
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Just gonna chime in here to say I am currently running a 1971 Cleveland in my Cougar, after I swapped out the original 1974 engine I had vapor issues. I installed a fuel line "regulator" and a gauge just after the mechanical pump and re routed the steel fuel line across the top (ish) of the engine. so far it runs great, just don't know if the regulator or the line re routing solved the issue.
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Bob
1974 Cougar XR7 with a 72 351C |
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1beautifuldaughter
Member Joined: 23-February-2021 Location: Warwick ny Status: Offline Points: 46 |
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So while waiting for my insulator gaskets to arrive, I removed the tank and found that the sock at the end of the pickup has been falling apart and there was chunks of it laying around inside the tank, The inside of the tank is otherwise very clean. Maybe a little pc got sucked up into the fuel pump inlet and is causing a problem with flow at times ?? I'll blow out the line and maybe consider changing the fuel pump just to be sure.
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72 RS 351
Senior Member Joined: 04-September-2014 Location: Knoxville TN Status: Offline Points: 2767 |
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That's a good clue, and a good bet the fuel pump has ingested something. The filter is upstream and protects the carburetor inlets, the pump has the sock in the tank.
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Don
73 Ranchero "Sport 72 front end", floor shift/console, planning EFI 7000+ rpm 351-4V &4R70W 73 Ranchero GT 351C-4V &4R70W for sale later. 92 Lincoln Mark VII SE GTC, OBDII 347/4R70W |
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1beautifuldaughter
Member Joined: 23-February-2021 Location: Warwick ny Status: Offline Points: 46 |
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pictures of sock in fuel and a washer looking thing that was in the tank
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1beautifuldaughter
Member Joined: 23-February-2021 Location: Warwick ny Status: Offline Points: 46 |
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Thanks to all who helped me , Today I was able to impress my wife by actually driving the car around without breaking down. We are all hero's lol, I did put the 1/4 inch spacer under the carb and replaced the fuel pump and filter and insulated the gas line from the pump up, But I feel with some certainty that the main problem was the filter sock in the fuel tank falling apart, and plugging things up just enough to create a fuel demand problem. Thinking maybe also the remnants of the sock would suck the inlet closed and then release once the car started running like a check valve and so thats why maybe it would get me home. Anyway Thanks very much
Edited by 1beautifuldaughter - 02-May-2021 at 8:53AM |
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handsofstone
Senior Member Joined: 13-April-2018 Location: Northeast Status: Offline Points: 3946 |
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Glad to see you are up and running.
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72 RS 351
Senior Member Joined: 04-September-2014 Location: Knoxville TN Status: Offline Points: 2767 |
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Excellent, fixed and ready to run any where now.
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Don
73 Ranchero "Sport 72 front end", floor shift/console, planning EFI 7000+ rpm 351-4V &4R70W 73 Ranchero GT 351C-4V &4R70W for sale later. 92 Lincoln Mark VII SE GTC, OBDII 347/4R70W |
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Steve M.
Senior Member Joined: 08-June-2019 Location: Florida Status: Offline Points: 1756 |
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Very nice
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Steve M.
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dan0R30
Senior Member Joined: 30-June-2020 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 637 |
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LOL. Nicely done!
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Dan
1970 Ford Torino hardtop - 351C 4V - FMX - 9" 3.89 TrueTrac |
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