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starting small, help wuold be nice.

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krimlin077 View Drop Down
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    Posted: 30-April-2004 at 8:15AM

 

I know that during the 1970's "anti-pollution" peices were placed on most major cars. What items ( if you know off any ) were placed on the 1973 Gran Torino's ( not the sport editions! ) i know that the timing belt and and cam shaft were "restarted" to help reduce emissions...and exhaust fumes/gases were "recycled" to go through certain parts of the engine twice before leaving and i a working on those issues at the moment, but is there anything else that i am missing?

The point of the post is that i want the horsepower that the actual 351C was MENT to put out! i want POWER! No, the 351 isnt the biggest engine, but it is the one i have more experience on, that and gas is okay on it compared to the larger ones. I would like to stick with this engine...so any help on making the engine more powerful would be nice...

Im driving a 1973 gran torino 4 dr. pillard hardtop. 351 Cleveland 2v.

Also i would like to moderenize some things about the car...the brakes and the ignition mainly ( might switch to a modern A/C unit instead of the R12 stuff to..it gets expensive to recharge it. this wouldnt happened anytime soon though and not a definite things...i want some originality!) If anyone has done this or has seen it on other similar models... also is dual-exhausting it helpful? im more afriad of losing back-pressure. Anyways any help on boosting power on this car would be nice...it is a heavy car.

"Those who dance are considered insane by those who can not hear the music."

"The following statment is true;the preceding statement is false."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 73ranchero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-May-2004 at 9:07PM

  The only emissions on a 73 ford were the egr ( exhaust gas recurculation) ,retarding the timing and dropping the compression. If you want to add power put a dual exhaust on it. 2 1/2 iches,  and a good set of muflers also put an aftermarket ignition box in it ( MSD, Jaycobs, Mallorey)  update your dist. with a kit from Pertronics or get a new dist from the previos mentioned or take the electronic ones from a 76-79 which has all the goodies. Add a set of lower gears ie. 350/370.You eather have a C4 trans or an FMX both have converters you can buy to help get more seat of the pants feel (2500 stall should be fine). If money is not an issue rebuild the engine and bump the compression to around 9.5:1 also a good manifold from edelbrock and a 600 to 650 carb. Remember cam choice when rebuilding, use something that will work with your modifications now and later. I don't know where you live so cam choice iIwill not say because I live in Colorado with no air so my cam chioce would be different than yours if you were at sea level. Good luck and have fun.   

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nemtorino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-May-2004 at 6:11AM

in addtion to what 73ranchero suggets I would ditch the A/C. I spent many weeks, and thousands of dollars on my A/C until i just tossed it. If i would have saved the money i wasted on A/C i would have a healty and happy 460 assembled and running right now. as for performance never under-estimate the power of gears! you probaly have 2.75:1 rear gears, while bumping up to 3.25 or 3:50 would affect highway gas millage, it would definaly make the car more fun.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nemtorino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-May-2004 at 6:11AM
oh well, i guess that 73ranchero mentioned gears too, Amen brother!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote krimlin077 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-May-2004 at 7:42AM

To answer a few things mentioned by 73ranch, dual exhaust was a planned idea, but it useless to add dual exhaust without adding a better cam and air intake, so these things i have to address first. The igntion i was going to swap over to electric, but i have no set time for that to happen. I do have the FMX tranny, i dont know to much about it and was going to swap to a C6...

Money is currently an issue , so rebuilding is a far off plan. Also i live in Nebraksa...so air is not a problem, but rust becomes an issue over here.

Nemtorino, my A/C still works and i would like to keep it. Like i said , i am not going to street race this, i just want more power.

Okay well, now it is time to save some money and work on the baby. Thanks for you time.

"Those who dance are considered insane by those who can not hear the music."

"The following statment is true;the preceding statement is false."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote krimlin077 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-May-2004 at 7:47AM
Just another quick question, i am pushing a 2v engine, and i want to swap over to a 4v one, do i only have to change the carb. and the cam? or is there more to it? help would be nice again.
"Those who dance are considered insane by those who can not hear the music."

"The following statment is true;the preceding statement is false."
                -George Carlin
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 73ranchero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-May-2004 at 10:14PM

You live in Nebraska so air is not a real problem like in Col. Change the intake and get a 600/650 carb for it. It would be wise to get a new cam @ lifters but check your compression first, you want to get something that is compatible with what you have now. If you want to change your trans let me know and I will see about getting you a C4.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote krimlin077 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-May-2004 at 8:43AM

What type of air intake would you recommend? I will jump aroud some websites once i know this...

Are 600/650 carbs specail orders? i doubt that a Napa store would have these lying around for this old of a car, once again either a website or a popular auto shop name would be nice.

For anyone who has done cams/lifter/rebuilds, any idea on a rough estimate for doing this kind of work? What price range would this be ( well say for "average" parts...nothing high-end at the moment ) and how much time would the average suto shop take ( if that is known, though it varies )

A new tranny would be nice! i dont think i will find a small blocl version of a C6 so, if the c4 is any good i will look around for one. ( is the c4 a better tranny than the FMX? i dont keep up on trannies.)

Thanks again everyone.

"Those who dance are considered insane by those who can not hear the music."

"The following statment is true;the preceding statement is false."
                -George Carlin
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote torino75 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-May-2004 at 10:27PM

krimlin077,

If by saying ''swap over to a 4v'' you mean with the 4V heads, Forget it. 4V heads have Huge ports which doesn't help velocity at low Rpm thus you're losing low end torque. 4V heads will come to life at 6000+ rpm, which is really not what you want in a street car. Unless you'ra gonna race it, stay away from the 4V heads. As for intake recommendation, go with a good dual plane edelbrock with a 600/650 cfm double pump carb. those carbs are not special order, Look on ebay for holley 4776, you might get a good deal on those.  If you're  mechanically inclined, and have a minimum of how-to, along with your car's Shop manual, you can swap cam and lifters yourself and save some money. Remove that pesky EGR Valve and all emission related stuff unless your state have restrictions and you need to pass any kind of sniffer. and visual inspection. Have a rebuild of your C4 and stick with it. Those are Good trannies

Hope this helps.

 

Torino75

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JimW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-May-2004 at 8:35PM

FMX is not a bad trans for a small block, get a Trans-go shift kit and a small stall conv and it'll be fine (as long as it hasn't started slipping yet).   A nice build for your 351C would be a 272/284 Crane Cam, Edelbrock Performer intake, a Carter/Edelbrock 625, ported exhaust maifolds, (though you can get long tube headers cheap) and 2.5" duals with a crossover.  Later you can port the heads and add better springs.   This combo will run nicely up to 5500 and with 3.70 gears will feel faster than it actually is. (I had the same build on a 351M before I went 460 and beat my fair share of mild small block chebbies, with my original 2.75 gears it was silly though, because 1st goes over 60, second to over 110, 3.70's were much more reasonable)

1976 S&H Gran Torino

460/C6/4.33 13.05@105.6

545/C6/3.56 11.52@117.8

More to come!!!!

463rwhp/495rwtq

two tons of fun

see it and hear it at:

www.torinocobra.com

www.st
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote krimlin077 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-May-2004 at 8:42AM

since i am using this car for the "street" and not racing, your suggesting that i stay with the 351C 2V engine over the 4V version? Thats fine by me, i just wanted to know if it was actually worth the time/money to swap over to a 4v if i am just using it for normal street usage and nothing more.

( Sorry, i never worked much on this old of a car before and i dont know much of what i am doing nor how to do it. ANY help or "how-to" guides that anyone knows about would be GREAT help. i do have some 1974 shop books for the engine/body/maintance, i will read those over )I will work on the edelbrock suggestion. As for the EGR valve and emissions controls on this car, is there a "how-to" guide on removing these items. I never dealt with these issues/parts. My engine only has 105,200 miles on it ( not 150,200 ...actually low milage for this old thing ) but the engine has never been rebuilt. I think i will work on that over the summer also. And, there is no emissions tests run where i live ( nebraska )

My tranny, well, i am not to sure that it is running at its greatest. Either my engine is weaker than it should be or my tranny is slipping. ( i hope not! )

next, would i need to take my car to a shop in order to do the "gear" settings up to a 3.70 on a FMX? Or would i need to replace my tranny and start over? Kinda funny that you say "up to 5,500 rpm..." reason being..i dont have a tach on my car...lol..i am trying to find one at the moment. I think i might change my guage cluster over to the "sport" version for torinos if i can find a cheap one. ( which with that said, is that an easy change over? would i simpily remove the current cluster and all the wires and just replace the wires and cluster with the new one? well and add new wires for the gauges that i didnt have before of course ) 

Well, i began looking up carbs and foud the 600/650 ones. Can i put a 4brl carb on my 351C 2v engine? I am not really sure becuase they dont mention it in the installing instructions. Now a rather 'stupid' question, does my engine even have roller rocker arms!? Should those be replaced considering the age of the car. ( and the fact that newer/better ones are aronnd?)

Sorry for going on about my problems, i am just trying to be careful and not waste any time/money on this car. Thanks alot for anyone caring to answer questions. Really, i am thankful.

 

"Those who dance are considered insane by those who can not hear the music."

"The following statment is true;the preceding statement is false."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JimW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2004 at 10:14PM

Keep the small port heads, go to the 335 series website on Network 54 and ask build questions for your application to get more opinions, (there's a great wealth of knowledge there) but here's my thoughts:

Theoretical shopping list (big parts) using part #'s from Summit Racing Catalogue:

EDL-2750 Performer intake for 351C 2V (accepts 4bbl carb)

EDL-1406 Performer Carb (600 cfm actually, same as old Carter 625, make sure to ask for the one with the Ford auto trans kickdown)

CRN-523942 Crane PowerMax Cam kit

CRN-52993-1 Crane Roller timing set

The intake will allow you to remove the EGR equipment.  You will need plenty of gaskets (Carb, intake, water pump, etc) to go along with this job, will require removing the radiator and the A/C condenser as well...

If the FMX i slipping, you might want to consider another trans as I have no idea how they are once rebuilt (mine was great with just a shift kit, but only had 50k miles on it).  For gears you need to find a qualified shop to swap the gears in your rear axle for the lower ones, not too much work, but requires some tools you may not have, and some experience in getting the clearances right.  Either way, you'll need a different speedo gear, or you will find the speedo is VERY optimistic (like reading 90 when you're doing 70)..

If you're going to run the car hard, get a tach, otherwise, just don't manually shift, or go over 120 with the 3.70 gears.

Jim

 

1976 S&H Gran Torino

460/C6/4.33 13.05@105.6

545/C6/3.56 11.52@117.8

More to come!!!!

463rwhp/495rwtq

two tons of fun

see it and hear it at:

www.torinocobra.com

www.st
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote krimlin077 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-June-2004 at 8:10AM

Jim,

First let me thank you greatly for the time you spent answering those questions. It really is a big help on my end. I have been looking at the Summit site a bit actually, i never found that intake though. that was a nice find and something that i will have on my car shortly! The rest of the parts you suggested seem fairly priced...some are high, but it was to be expected.

The only thing i can come up with that you might have left off the list was the Camshaft. Any pointers on which one i should run with those gear settings and parts?

Once again, a large THANKYOU! from me to all those who have helped me along so far. I will try and load up some pictures of my car as it is now, and follow a part-by-part gallery.

"Those who dance are considered insane by those who can not hear the music."

"The following statment is true;the preceding statement is false."
                -George Carlin
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JimW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-June-2004 at 8:53PM

No problem..

Check again about the cam (third part# down).  And by no means am I suggesting buying from Summit, they just have the easiest to access part descriptions, and I had a catalogue handy, you can do price searching and shopping once you have a list..  You can also look at the smaller Comp Cams Xtreme cams, I hear good things about them, look in the 215intake 220exhaust deg @.050 range for duration (is like a 272 advertised degree cam), with about .520 lift not much more unless you want it rowdy..  You want hydraulic flat tappet.  Comp Cams has nice full kits available too with springs, retainers, locks, seals, timing chain, etc..  If you plan of running it hard, I would consider checking the valve springs (machine shop can do this for you easily), with that many miles, you may want to replace them...  Again, you should go to the 335 series forum on Network 54, do a search and ask questions there too, successful builds of all flavors over there.

Don't forget to add gaskets, fluids and fasteners to any build estimate..

Good luck!

Jim

1976 S&H Gran Torino

460/C6/4.33 13.05@105.6

545/C6/3.56 11.52@117.8

More to come!!!!

463rwhp/495rwtq

two tons of fun

see it and hear it at:

www.torinocobra.com

www.st
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krimlin077 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote krimlin077 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-June-2004 at 8:08AM

OH!....opps must have skipped that one in there. Summit i hear alot of things about...but i usally get the "undecided" answer when i ask someone if they are any good. A nice selection, but i have always questioned their service. As for Comp Cams, they area group i have heard a lot of good things about and also alot of people seem to have their products ( also Edelbrocks is popular )

And just to laugh at myself ( and i am sure you'll laugh too but i didnt understand much of this statement here...goes to show how much attention i gave to my Automotives class in Highschool.

"I hear good things about them, look in the 215intake 220exhaust deg @.050 range for duration (is like a 272 advertised degree cam), with about .520 lift not much more unless you want it rowdy..  You want hydraulic flat tappet.  Comp Cams has nice full kits available too with springs, retainers, locks, seals, timing chain, etc.."

Do me a favor and put that into "Auto's for dumbies" language if possible. If not i will try to find a dictionary real fast and in a hurry.

Are most of these kits easy enough to do once the instructions are reviewed or ( considering that fact that i didnt understand much of the previous statements ) would you say i need to take it to a shop.

Well i am off to do my price hunting..wha fun this should be...or lack there of.

"Those who dance are considered insane by those who can not hear the music."

"The following statment is true;the preceding statement is false."
                -George Carlin
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JimW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-June-2004 at 6:52PM

"272 advertised"  This is the number you usualy hear in the cam title, like the 268 High energy, or 280 Magnum from Comp cams, this is the number that means little as to how cams relate to each other since every company measures differently.

"215 @ .050"  This the total degrees of duration out of 360 that the cam is at .050 or greater lift, it equals the playing field amongst cams 

".520 lift"  This is the amount in inches that the valve lifts off of the seat, it is the cam lift multiplied by the rocker ratio (stock Cleveland rockers are 1.72 I believe so the multiply the cam lift by 1.72 to get valve lift.)  Greater lifts mean heavier valve springs are needed and sometimes the heads need work, and you may need different rockers, valve to piston clearance checked, etc.... 

(I've run the stock ones up to .530 lift with no problems)

I changed my first cam at 15, so I dunno how tough it is, it is just about being methodical, and also, getting a manual with assembly and disassembly procedures and torque figures for your engine. 

Like a broken record, I suggest again going to the 335 series forum in Network 54 and asking questions, I've never build a std cleveland, only a 351M, (same heads and bore/stroke, that's about it), so you can get tons of tips and pointers there.

Good luck!

 

 

1976 S&H Gran Torino

460/C6/4.33 13.05@105.6

545/C6/3.56 11.52@117.8

More to come!!!!

463rwhp/495rwtq

two tons of fun

see it and hear it at:

www.torinocobra.com

www.st
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