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302/351W vs 351M/400

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occupant View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote occupant Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: 302/351W vs 351M/400
    Posted: 14-April-2010 at 10:32AM
OK, I have an opportunity to get a running 351W engine for my Torino. This means I can eliminate the crazy oil burning, the rocker noise, and the rear main seal leakage all in one shot. But since I currently have a 351M and FMX, I have to make some changes.

I need a few things clarified as far as the swap.

1) The seller is including the motor mounts (coming from a 1978 Thunderbird). When I remove the 351M, do the mounts just unbolt from the frame, and can I just bolt the 351W mounts in their place? Does it use the same mounting holes?

2) Will I have to modify the Y-pipe to fit up to the exhaust manifolds or are they in about the same location on both engine types?

3) I have read that all FMX transmissions have a removable bellhousing. Is this true? If so, maybe I can buy the bellhousing off the same vehicle.

4) I know the intakes are different, but will my 2150 carb fit the 351W's intake? I want to use it if possible because it doesn't leak and seems to give me smooth power in the 351M.

5) I have my fan, the wagon's fan, and I should get the Thunderbird's fan. Which one should I use, I think they're all flex fans, 5 or 6 blade, is there any difference between them? If the T-Bird has a clutch fan I'll keep it if it fits in the shroud.

6) Would the alternator be on the passenger side and the power steering pump and AC be on the driver's side in a 1978 351W?

7) Is there anything else I might have to change to make this all work? Throttle cable or linkage, anything like that? If I re-use my carb, I'm guessing that would fit fine?

edit: I have figured that the Duraspark box is different. There's different part numbers listed for 351M '76 models and 351W or 351M '78 models. I hope he still has the box from the 'Bird.

Edited by occupant - 14-April-2010 at 12:54PM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ramair351 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-April-2010 at 12:53PM
1.yes
2.no the y pipe will not fit, you must modify
3.yes 
4.yes
5. use the one that is beat up the least.
6. yes
7.  make sure to get the throttle bracket for the windsor, the cable will interchange. and all 351w accesory drive stuff, fuel pump,manifolds, motor mounts, distributor. the duraspark box will interchange if its a blue grommet. radiator hoses will be different.


Edited by ramair351 - 15-April-2010 at 12:54PM
-Pete
1972 montego GT
1970 Torino cobra SCJ
1970 mustang mach 1
1965 Falcon futura



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote occupant Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-April-2010 at 2:59AM
Awesome, I planned to buy new hoses and belts anyway. My box doesn't have the blue sticker on it. And the wires and grommets are gray or black (too dirty to tell) but definitely not blue.

My car has two cats on the Y-pipe, I think maybe it would be better to run no cats. No emissions here, and even if they do implement it in my county (Waco has high ozone levels evidently and they're considering it) I'm still exempt from age.

The manifolds, brackets, fuel pump, dizzy, all that stuff is already on the engine. If he can't cut off the Y-pipe from the 'Bird I can always drive it open up to the exhaust shop in Hillsboro. One 15-mile run won't kill it.

He's even bringing this stuff here to me. My wife is ecstatic that I won't be transporting this mess in her Durango!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ramair351 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-April-2010 at 6:45AM
what i mean by blue grommet, is where the wires come out of the box, the rectangle piece of plastic can be either blue, black or brown. you cant really tell unless you unbolt it. either color will work, but i think the blue has better timing characteristics.   yes by all means get rid of the pellet cats, you will probably pick up some horses doing that.
-Pete
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1970 Torino cobra SCJ
1970 mustang mach 1
1965 Falcon futura



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote occupant Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-April-2010 at 3:19PM
The guy's gonna give me the exhaust, ignition box, and the throttle linkage/bracket, but he doesn't have the bellhousing anymore. Good news, I found one for $25 in Burleson on a core FMX from a 302-equipped Mustang. Bellhousings don't burn out or leak fluid, so it's gotta be good. And then new belts and hoses and I should be good to go.

Here's a question, I know the AC is top mount, driver's side, and I bet the bracket is different somehow, but he's including his bracket and will my compressor bolt to that bracket? Here's a photo of my AC unit:



And here's a pic of a '78 Thunderbird with a 351W, I think it looks almost exactly the same, which is odd, I would think they'd be different:

08 Uplander LS, 262K, broken again
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ramair351 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-April-2010 at 11:41PM
the compressor should bolt on fine. another small hurdle i thought of is the engine wiring will have to be modified slightly,  the oil pressure sender is next to the oil filter on a 351w, and is on the back of the engine on a 351c/m
-Pete
1972 montego GT
1970 Torino cobra SCJ
1970 mustang mach 1
1965 Falcon futura



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 78sport Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-August-2010 at 7:18PM
hey occupant, the top picture of the blue engine-does that vacumm can have two hoses going to it? If yes, I want to know where they lead, thanks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote occupant Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-August-2010 at 1:25AM
The larger diameter hose goes to a vacuum tee with about 5 ports on it on the firewall, up high, and it goes to the bottom driver's side port.

The smaller diameter hose goes all the way around and down by the transmission dipstick and attaches to the firewall down low, I assume this goes to the interior to give vacuum to the HVAC controls. There is another line that tees off of it back by the firewall and this goes to a vacuum delay valve near the carb.

I went ahead and labeled them on the picture so you can see what I mean. If you need close-ups of the tees or delay valves or whatever, let me know before it gets hot outside (or I can do it tomorrow morning, it's been 100-105 and low humidity during the day just stifling with no wind, then drops to 70-75 at night but humidity triples, so it's humid but VERY pleasant from about 3am-7am while still dark).

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GranTorinoSport Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-August-2010 at 2:04AM
On comment about the fan - consider replacement of the flex fan if you have it all torn apart. A cheapie from Flex-A-Lite or similar is probably $20.

I say that because of the notorious safety concerns associated with aged flex fans breaking. There are deaths attributed to this. I had one break in the early 90's (nobody was under the hood at the time but the AC system got torn and leaked all out). I am afraid of those things ever since.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 78sport Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-August-2010 at 11:09AM
Occupant thank you very much. I will hook my can up very soon. Weather here has been less than pleasant also but not as bad as you have. Somebody told me my can with the two fittings was wrong for my 78 LTD II but they probably didn't realize it was originally an AC car since I removed the components. I still use my AC controls to circulate cabin air even though it doesn't get cold because it pushes more air out the vents than just having the controls set to the vent position. I can see my vacumm fitting high on the firewall but I'll have to hunt for the smaller line down below. I'll find it this weekend when the weather turns cooler. Thanks for your diagram and explanation. Happy motorin' Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Damo70 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-December-2010 at 10:58PM
Hi there,
I have a 75 Gran Torino which I have purchased a oil pressure sender for however the block and oil filter seem to be in the way or the sender is too big to fit in. I was going to take the oil filter off to try but it seems that the block may prevent it from fitting on. Any suggestions on which one I should have. I believe the sender i have is for a 69-73 windsor however I was told it will fit my 75 gran torino. There was only a plug in prior to this so no oil pressure indicator at all
Any info appreciated.
Cheers
Damian
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote occupant Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-December-2010 at 6:21AM
I think the oil pressure sender for Clevelands and M-Blocks is at the back of the engine, above the bellhousing. It would be too big to fit on a 302/351W engine. If you can post a pic or two I can help more, haven't had my head under the hood of a small-block 72-79 in awhile.
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still looking for another something
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote occupant Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-December-2010 at 6:23AM
I've got a choice of 3 flex fans to put on the front of this 351CJ but I think I'm going to go with a clutch style fan if I can come up with the extra $60 or so to order the fan and clutch from Summit. As long as it'll fit inside that nice shroud I kept from the wagon, that is!
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08 Explorer EB, 195K, for the wife
still looking for another something
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Skinnys Garage Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-December-2010 at 6:25AM
The 302/Windsor use the same sender, but have a long hex adaptor tube that screws in the block to bring the sender out away from the filter.
Scott -'73 Gran Torino Brougham

Past Torino's -'73 Q-code GTS, '76 Original PS-122 S&H, '73 H-code GTS, '73 Ranchero
        '71 Cobra 351 Auto, '70 351C Brougham 2dr HT, '71 351C Ranchero
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