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351M/400 for my '76 sedan

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote occupant Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: 351M/400 for my '76 sedan
    Posted: 26-June-2010 at 12:05PM
I'm keeping all content related to putting an engine in my car into this thread from now on. I keep changing my mind every two weeks and I still don't have the cash to do ANYTHING, so I'll keep brainstorming ideas in this thread.

At the moment I'm considering buying a rebuildable core from the guy who had the rebuilt 351M. He has two of them sitting in self-storage that have been there for three years. One is a '76 LTD 400-2V with 76K on the car (car's gone). The other is another 400-2V from a '78 Town Car that had just turned over 100K when it got wrecked. But both turn over and aren't locked up or have holes in the block or rods poking out of the oil pan. He hasn't named a price yet but I'm guessing in the range of $200 each. If he surprises me and they are cheap enough, I'm considering buying both of them so I build one now for the Torino, build one later for a 76-77 truck, and then build my 351M after that to put BACK in the Torino and then I'll have a good 400 to put in a 75-76 Ranchero.

There are three more options on eBay, one is a good running complete '78 truck 351M in Pennsylvania for $475 plus freight. Another is a running complete 400, think it's in Nebraska, for $200 plus $275 freight to Irving TX. The other is a 351M from a '77 LTD II at Elmer's in Wisconsin and it ran when pulled but has been sitting for a few years unfired. That one is $180 plus $185 freight to a commercial address.

I have also poked around on car-part.com and found a few more running 351M and 400 motors that could be shipped to me. Also there is a supposed good running 400 in Fort Worth for $450 from a '78 pickup.

I have Harbor Freight coupons good til July 23rd for a $99 folding shop crane and a $39 engine stand. I want to do some work to whatever engine I get before just throwing it in. I want to fix the inherent "issues" outlined on Dave Resch's M-Block site before installation. I know some of them will reduce my gas mileage a bit but I think I can tune it up to keep it around 15mpg with the FMX and 2.75 rear. Maybe with an AOD I can then see 18-20mpg. I drive easy enough, so those figures should be attainable if I keep my foot out of it.

Things I want to do in the build:

camshaft, lifters, valve springs
port heads, mill heads slightly
pushrods and rockers if needed
timing set (gear drive if I can afford it, otherwise double roller)

I do want to keep the stock 2150 carb (although I may change out the jets a size or two up) and the stock 2V intake manifold. I also plan to use the oil pan from my car, the stock exhaust manifolds and Y-pipe. At some point I want true duals front to back with some fancy name brand mufflers but I'm saving that for if/when I get headers/4V carb/4V intake. And I want to hear different 400's with different mufflers, in person, at shows and stuff, before I commit to one brand over another. YouTube videos just don't give the sound quality I'd need to make that decision.

And then there's the subject of what cam to use. Looking at the table of stock cam profiles, I certainly don't want to completely choke my engine with any of them. That '76 LTD 400 engine would have 258/266 duration and 428/433 lift. The '78 truck 400 would have 250/272 duration and the same lift.

So this is where I'm at this afternoon. I'm sitting in front of my computer looking at cam specs. How far can I push it and still keep good driveability characteristics? I see durations from 252/252 all the way up to 308/308. I see lifts from 468 to 651. That's a pretty big range.

OK, I just cut it back to street use and hydraulic flat tappet style. The range is MUCH smaller, topping out at 284/296 duration and 584/588 lift. Sounds like a big cam though, especially compared to stock. I think keeping a similar duration would be good, right? And bump the lift up .050 or so from stock? Maybe one of these?

CompCams DE255H 255/263 duration, 469/505 lift, 1000-5500rpm
CompCams DE265H 265/275 duration, 484/510 lift, 1500-5750rpm
CompCams 260H 260/260 duration, 484/484 lift, 1200-5200rpm
CompCams 268H 268/268 duration, 494/494 lift, 1500-5500rpm
CompCams XE256H 256/268 duration, 487/493 lift, 1200-5200rpm
CompCams XE262H 262/270 duration, 513/520 lift, 1400-5600rpm
Crane Energizer 266/266 duration, 508/508 lift, 1400-4800rpm
Crane PowerMax 248/260 duration, 461/493 lift, 1000-4000rpm
Crane PowerMax 260/276 duration, 493/502 lift, 1500-4500rpm
Crane PowerMax 266/280 duration, 508/510 lift, 1600-4700rpm
Lunati 311-A1 262/272 duration, 499/524 lift, idle-5000rpm
Summit Racing 5200 262/272 duration, 484/510 lift, 1200-4500rpm

I am amused by different companies showing cams at different rpm levels. Lunati says idle-5000rpm for a 262/272 with 499/524 lift whereas a cam with less lift from Crane is 1600-4700rpm.

I'd like to hear some opinions on the cam specs and how they would apply to my driving style. I'll try to sum that up right now.

50% of the time I drive like this:


48% of the time I drive like this (still slow but I'm jammin'):


2% of the time, where I feel the need...the need...for SPEED:
08 Uplander LS, 262K, broken again
08 Explorer EB, 195K, for the wife
still looking for another something
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote occupant Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-July-2010 at 11:10AM
Videos are posted on YouTube to try and update everything going on with the car. As far as what's in them, they're 2 minutes each, go watch.

July 2010 Torino Updates 1

July 2010 Torino Updates 2

I'm trying NOT to drive the car at this point. There are four things I need to do first:

1) Drain engine oil overnight some night after a nice hot highway run, screw on a Fram filter I picked up on clearance, fill with a mixture of 1 gallon kerosene (about $4) and 2 quarts of 50-weight Valvoline VR1 racing oil (about $5), idle the engine for 10-15 minutes, shut it off, then add another gallon of kerosene (another $4) and let it sit for an hour, then drain overnight again, screw on the good FL-1A Motorcraft filter, fill with the 50-weight VR1 racing oil, and drive normally for awhile to see if all the sludge got cleaned out.

2) If all that didn't work, I plan to go after the leaks next, which will hopefully involve pulling the pan, changing the rear main seal, cleaning the pan, lower end of the motor, and the oil pickup screen, and putting on a new oil pan gasket, then pulling the valve covers, carb, and intake, and installing all new gaskets up there like the EGR spacer (above and below), the intake gaskets themselves, the seals at the front and back of the intake, cleaning out the lifter valley and the valley pan if there's one in there, and then putting it back together with new valve cover gaskets and all new vacuum lines.

3) If all that didn't work and I'm still using more than one quart of oil every 300 miles, then I will buy a foldable shop crane and an engine stand and pull the dang 351M to replace it with a 400 or something. The 351M can sit on the stand, under a tarp, until I figure out whether to rebuild it or not, and even if I do, it'll probably go in a truck (since I'm most likely to get a truck 400 and will have a truck pan ready to use).

4) I also, before I begin driving this thing daily again, need to replace the tires, for as of last year they weren't in too bad of shape but this year the dry rotting and the weekly pressure losses are too much. I don't expect these tires to last much longer at all. They were junk to begin with and they're not aging well. This means I need three more CVPI steel wheels, 12 more collared lug nuts, and I want a set of trim rings from a 90's Dodge pickup. I also want to trade my Explorer/CVPI center caps along with a set of 6-lug chrome caps from an 04-08 F-150 to get some Explorer (02-05 reg Explorer and 04+ Sport Trac) center caps (same 5x4.5 bolt pattern, need all 5 lugs to hold them on unlike the CVPI caps that only need 3 per wheel, should fit in the CVPI rims ok) which should look very boss, like dog dishes except better than the originals and even better looking than the 80's CVPI poverty caps. Here's a stock photo of the ones I want:



And when those four things are done, I will renew the tags for August 2011 ($53) and be good to go until the inspection expires again at the end of June 2011. Or until I vent the block with a connecting rod or two. It's all subjective, you see.
08 Uplander LS, 262K, broken again
08 Explorer EB, 195K, for the wife
still looking for another something
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote torkair Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-July-2010 at 9:39PM
Grab a builder 400 that still turns over, redo the heads, grab a 4bbl intake for the 2v heads, and pick your favorite Cleveland cam and lifter set and you should be happy for a good long time.  If you feel particularly squirrely then go for a full rebuild with Tmeyer pistons and aussie 2v heads.
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73 Ranchero GT- Q code-460/C6/3.25 open rear
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GranTorinoSport Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-July-2010 at 5:45AM
The following cams get good reviews from what I have read over the years:

CompCams DE255H 255/263 duration, 469/505 lift, 1000-5500rpm
CompCams DE265H 265/275 duration, 484/510 lift, 1500-5750rpm

I can not speak to the others, as I have no knowledge of them.

You may want to stick with the 255 cam if you are using the 2150 and other stock items. You can add some more stuff a little later and you will still see an increase. But, your driveability will not suffer (idle, vacuum, etc).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GranTorinoSport Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-July-2010 at 6:12AM
The YouTube videos are great!

About the Harbor Freight stuff - the foldable engine crane really is pretty good. I thought that was a good purchase.

The engine stand was maybe not as good. I have the heavy duty one (the toughest one they had) holding a 460, and it sags quite a bit. Additionally, the legs of the crane and the legs of that particular engine stand are the same width, so it was an interesting task to get the engine on the crane onto the stand and set it down (took two attempts). The other stands they have would not have had the same problem.


Edited by GranTorinoSport - 20-July-2010 at 6:16AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote occupant Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-July-2010 at 12:51PM
Thanks for some feedback there. After reading more and more about various F-Series and Bronco and other buildups using the Dual Energy cams, I think that 255 is really going to be the sweet spot for me. I like a lot of torque, I don't rev high, and I still want reasonable mileage. I know it's a big engine and 20-22 is definitely out there for a reasonable expectation, but with my driving habits, the 2.75 gearing, and an AOD, I should get darn close. If I can get 18 mixed I'd be happy no matter how high or low the highway figure. Just want to do as well as the wife's Durango with the 318 and overdrive automatic (gets 18-19 mixed and I check it by hand each fill-up)

At this point I think I'm just going to have my local mechanic eat $400 out of my wallet to put the motor in as-is from a running junkyard/CL find. If it needs a rear main or gaskets for tin bits he will do that before it goes in. Then I'll do the cam and all the other stuff later.

I just can't imagine another engine leaking and burning oil and making as much noise as my 351M. It'll get me around while I save up for a proper cam change, the needed gaskets, the head job at the machine shop to swap the valve springs and clean it up, and then I won't even NEED a lift or a stand.

I finished all my GFK work and submitted it all. I get paid $337 for those 3 days I was out and about. I thought it would be a 3 week project but I just work too darned fast, I guess. Now it's on to other projects I can do at home and hopefully they will pay as quickly.

Scott, if you get a chance, go watch that 2nd video again and turn on the Beta Transcribe Audio thing. There's a reason it's still in beta. I swear I never thought a computer could mistake "quart of oil" for "cold war" or "high idle on the choke" for "richard nixon words".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GranTorinoSport Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-July-2010 at 8:17AM
What I got out of the gibberish was that during the cold war, little Richard Nixon ended the war and it got 40 miles to the gallon.

That should be more like alpha software - not beta!

I am sure your Texas accent does not help matters with such basic software, but I guess it begs the question what exactly is the software written to transcribe? West Coast English, Queen's English, Australian English?

Wonder what it would do with Jamie Oliver.

So I guess the only logical course of action is to place a portrait of Richard Nixon into your car, and it will get 40 miles to the gallon!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote occupant Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-July-2010 at 11:27AM
Sadly if I did that, the weight of his lies would probably give me 40 miles to a cold war. Sorry, QUART of OIL. Gosh, now it's rubbing off on me...
08 Uplander LS, 262K, broken again
08 Explorer EB, 195K, for the wife
still looking for another something
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