Drive Train Cost HELP??? |
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gpd294
Senior Member Joined: 18-September-2008 Location: Dallas, Texas Status: Offline Points: 2178 |
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Posted: 07-January-2011 at 1:08PM |
Well Guys, I need some help here. As some may know, I have tried to do as much of the restoration of my wagon that I could, but I have reached the point that I am going to "farm out" the mechanicals. I spoke with the previous owner of the car and he said the reason the car was not driven for approx 18 years was because the transmission was needing attention. The wagon was his Grandmother's and his Dad was the one who stored it in his garage for so many years because it was his Mom's car and it had sentimental value to him. His Dad fell ill to brain cancer, luckily he's still alive, but he had to sell his home, cars, etc. I told them my story and they were set at ease. I hope I make them proud.
So my question is this:
This wagon is basically going to be a weekend driver, but I would like to make the occasional road trip, including the 1800 mile round trip to Tennessee in September, for Our 1st annual Torino Car Show. My Dad's original wagon had a 302 V-8 with a C-4 Transmission, but my wagon has a 400 V-8 with a C-6 Transmission.
To save a lil money, if my block is good, I would like to just re-build what I have and then go threw the brake system, fuel system, cooling system, etc to make sure it can make the trip. The car has approx 149K original miles so this is the reason I say "re-build". I have budgeted $5K to get these portions of the restoration taken care of.
Am I in the ball park here???
I haven't gotten any bids yet cause I'd like to be somewhat educated prior too, but I'd hate to stop by a Shop and have some guy tell me that my wagon needs a "New Johnson Rod" - George AKA Jason Alexander "Seinfeld" and then wanna charge me an arm and a leg.
What do yall recommend I do here???
The issues ILyes has had have gotten me worried. I would hate for whatever Shop I use to keep throwing things at me running up my bill. I guess I have yall to run things by if it turns out to be a horror movie, but let's hope that's not the case.
I would really like to actually drive my wagon this year!!! It's been almost 3 years since I started. Making it to the Show is just the cherry on top.
Thanks Guys for all the help!
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Carlos....1975 Gran Torino Squire Station Wagon restored to look like a 1973 Torino Station
Wagon my Dad bought new from McAnary Ford on June 6, 1973 in Gary,Indiana |
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ilyes
Senior Member Joined: 09-January-2010 Location: Philadelphia PA Status: Offline Points: 3782 |
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don't worry, you don't need new rods, except if you broke/bent one and i don't think you did
I'm reusing my stock rods and crankshaft, you just need to measure the journal to see if you'll get away with a simple polishing or a grinding, anyway, it doesn't cost much. An engine rebuild kit cost starts at 250$ for a sealed pro, and for this price, you got all the seals, bearing, gasket, pistons and rings, oil pump, plastigage. I payd 300$ for mine, it's a hypereutetic kit, basically, piston are a little bit better, and if you put more money, you get forged pistons. Then it depends what kind of rebuilt you're doing, stock, street friendly, or or heavy foot with some power adder. but first, you need to tear down the block to check cylinders wall and crankshaft journal. Mine was bad as i got some sabotage from a friendly neighbor, that's why my pistons and cylinder were trash. I also went on a very friendly built, and i made the mistake to try to save money by using few used parts (but not in the internal) that's why i got some trouble, but it's ok, i don't plan on giving up, i will make it run as it should avoid ebay rebuild kit if you can, i don't say their are junk, but as it doesn't say clearly which company makes it, i will stay clear of them, plus, Summit has a great customer service if you need any help, feel free to ask about the drivetrain, it depends what kind of riding you're looking for, stock, or a train ride. I will get new bushings, springs, shocks,rotors, pads, shoes, line. Expect a total over 450$ for a good chassis, a little more if you wanna go fancy
Edited by ilyes - 07-January-2011 at 1:58PM |
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occupant
Senior Member Joined: 23-October-2006 Location: Lawton, OK Status: Offline Points: 1973 |
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Well if you want to rebuild the 400, you can get what's called a master rebuild kit. But don't buy it up front. Pull the motor and strip it down to the block. Mark everything with masking tape and a sharpie or something.
Take the heads (with valve springs still on 'em), the block (with the main caps in a baggie), the intake manifold, the crankshaft, rods/pistons, and run that to a machine shop. Tell 'em to magnaflux the heads and clean 'em up, do a valve grind, new seals and retainers, all that. Then have them clean up and check the block over to see how much (if any) overbore may be needed. They can also check the crank and grind that if need be, and make sure your rods are good to go. If it were me, I would have them port match the intake to the heads just because. They may come back and say change the bearings and slap it together. You can figure $50-$80 for cleaning/checking the block, $50-$60 per head to clean and do the valve grind, and about $30 to clean up the intake plus any porting you get done there or on the heads. Add a few bucks here and there for freeze plugs, seals, things like that. $200 would be a good bare minimum to get in and out if it doesn't need anything. Then you buy the standard bore, standard rod/main bearings, no pistons master rebuild kit, run you about $550-$600. Now let's say they come back and say it's a standard bore but you've got some scratches and you'll need a .030" overbore. So go buy the master rebuild kit, get the one with pistons. Run you about $700-$750. If the crank needed ground down a bit, you just choose the undersized bearings to match. At any rate, don't forget new water-fuel-oil pumps and all that. If you want to spend a little more and get a better build, get a set of pistons/rings/bearings from Tim Meyer Inc, have the machine shop put the pins and rods on it (about $6-$8 per piston), and then get a nice Fel-Pro overhaul kit, buy yourself a new water pump, fuel pump, oil pump, and all that. Clevite also sells a master rebuild kit for about $650 includes pistons and bearings and gaskets and seals and rings, too. *OR* you could buy a 400 long block for $1300 or so from AutoZone and slap your intake and tin on, paint it Ford blue, and call it a day. |
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ilyes
Senior Member Joined: 09-January-2010 Location: Philadelphia PA Status: Offline Points: 3782 |
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my bad, rebuild kit for 400 are more expensive than 302
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stanman
Senior Member Joined: 23-March-2007 Location: Nova Scotia, Ca Status: Offline Points: 1432 |
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I started out last summer to do a cheap rebuild of a 351W for my F150. Truck was 302, so bought a used 351 in a Bronco. Deck of block was rusted and needed machine work, so I bought a 1996 E250 van 'cause it was low mileage and a roller block besides. 2 cylinders were badly pitted from engine sitting, so it had to be bored. Long story short, machine work and parts came to around $1800. That's not including anything for time and purchase price of vehicles, though I got most of that money back by selling parts. Price of a long block from Ford?.....$1800. My point (if I have one) is, unless you want to try a rebuild on your own, save yourself some time and aggravation and buy a rebuilt, unless your engine can be rebuilt with just a re-ring job. Once you start farming out machine work, it seems to snowball. Plus a rebuilt long block usually has a warranty, something a home rebuild doesn't have.
Edited by stanman - 07-January-2011 at 4:04PM |
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gpd294
Senior Member Joined: 18-September-2008 Location: Dallas, Texas Status: Offline Points: 2178 |
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Thanks for the input Guys, but I'm talking ball park figures including LABOR. I'm talking about having the wagon towed to a Shop and having them pull the existing motor/transmission and going threw and replace, if needed, the entire drive train. Aside from re-building the Engine and Transmission, new fuel lines, brake lines, brakes, clean and seal gas tank, etc., if needed. Those of you who have done this or do this for a living what does all this cost? I can clean up and restore the valve covers, oil pan, fan, accesories, and brackets, but the rest is ALL on the Shop. I just want the wagon to be dependable. Pretty much TURN KEY. Any other input???
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Carlos....1975 Gran Torino Squire Station Wagon restored to look like a 1973 Torino Station
Wagon my Dad bought new from McAnary Ford on June 6, 1973 in Gary,Indiana |
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torkair
Senior Member Joined: 01-May-2010 Location: Tucson, Az Status: Offline Points: 430 |
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To get all that work done you're gonna break your budget, anything you can do yourself will be a HUGE money saver! Rebuilding a 400 is pretty straight forward so long as you have any sort of mechanical skills to speak of (and I'm sure you do). In order to get GOOD off the shelf pistons for your 400 you will need to have the machine shop bush the wrist pin end of the rods to accept the smaller 351 Cleveland wrist pin, once that's done you have a whole boat load of pistons to choose from! You can also use any cam that is specd for a Cleveland as well, if you want a port matched dual plane intake let me know as I will be swapping mine out for a single plane (performance oriented build). Remember, anything you can do to a Cleveland you can also do to a 400, you've just got another 50 cubes to do it with!
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72 Gran Torino "sport"- in progress
73 Ranchero GT- Q code-460/C6/3.25 open rear |
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Blueoval76
Senior Member Member of the Stroker Club Joined: 20-February-2010 Location: Sussex WI Status: Offline Points: 698 |
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Ok here is my take on this. I spend alot of time on my local Craigslist and a mustang site that is local to the Midwest. I have found that it is way cheaper and easier to buy something that someone else decided to give up on or does not need. Examples are me selling my long block that came out of my Torino for $600. The guy was able to hear it run, and go for a ride in it before he bought it. He got a great deal on a motor that is just stick in and run. I have a line on a 86 mustang 302 that is in the car running and is stock as far as I know. The guy wants to trade the complete running motor for my left over 460 parts that I have. It is an awesome deal but I would have to take up alot more room in my dads garage if I do the deal. This is why I would take some time and shop around for someone selling a running motor or I have also seen alot of people selling a short block already rebuilt for half the price of having one done yourself.
Just my .02 cents.
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68 Galaxie Wagon 390/auto/2.70
03 Bonneville some mods |
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occupant
Senior Member Joined: 23-October-2006 Location: Lawton, OK Status: Offline Points: 1973 |
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gpd294, if you're having a shop do it, well that's kinda like me having the shop swap engines, maybe you can find a FRESHLY rebuilt one somewhere, and just have your shop drop that in. In the last year I have found four fresh M-blocks in and within a couple hours of DFW. The cheapest was $500 and it was down by San Antonio, fresh rebuild, guy didn't want it because he thought it was a Cleveland when he bought it. Then there have been $1000, $1100, and $2000 engines. So one of those plus what your shop charges for labor...
I still think picking up a long block would be your best bet. I'm also willing to bet your shop has a company they go through for such things and they can get you a better price. You might not get your pick of date codes or anything, but you would get a fresh 400. I would make some minor changes though for reliability. Change out the timing set if it's not a good quality double roller set. Make sure the pushrods and rocker arms are good to go. I might even change to a name brand camshaft, not for performance, but to know exactly what you have in there. The CompCams 255DEH comes to mind, M-blocks like dual-pattern cams. And then you can swap over the oil pan, timing cover, valve covers, intake and exhaust manifolds, and other bits from your 400. As far as how much it would cost altogether to have someone else do EVERYTHING... $300 to pull the engine $200 to rebuild the carburetor $200 to tear the engine down and inspect it $400 in machine shop charges for the block and heads $600 to put the engine back together $300 to put the engine back in the car and hook it up $800 in parts including the rebuild kit, gaskets, seals, whatever $200 in miscellaneous stuff, filters, hoses, clamps About $3000. Now if you choose the long block way... $300 to pull the engine $200 to rebuild the carburetor $1300 for the long block engine $200 to swap over your tin and other bits $300 to put the engine in the car and hook it up $200 in miscellaneous stuff, filters, hoses, clamps About $2500, no waiting on the machine shop, no uncertainty whether or not your rebuilt engine will run worth a darn, and no worrying about the quality of your shop's labor when working on engine internals. Edited by occupant - 08-January-2011 at 5:46AM |
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08 Uplander LS, 262K, broken again
08 Explorer EB, 195K, for the wife still looking for another something |
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ilyes
Senior Member Joined: 09-January-2010 Location: Philadelphia PA Status: Offline Points: 3782 |
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if i was closer, i would pull your block and tear it down for a bottle of coke and some cookies
for the carb, i will get a rebuilt one from ebay and sell the old one you can tear down the block yourself to save some cash too, just think to pack everything in zip lock bags, and label them Edited by ilyes - 08-January-2011 at 6:26AM |
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Regul8r
Admin Group Moderator Joined: 26-December-2007 Location: Sarasota FL Status: Offline Points: 6624 |
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Send me your carbs... I'll rebuild them!
Maybe I need to start collecting Ford 2&4 bbls and Holley 600/650 4bbls for y'all!?
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Carl Corey (Moderator/Event Coordinator) Contact ANYTIME!
1976 Ford Elite "Lola Mae" 97 Suzuki Intruder 1400 US Army Retired |
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Rockatansky
Senior Member Joined: 30-July-2010 Location: On The Road Status: Offline Points: 6059 |
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i don't know what it is about 335 series engines in TX, but they're sure hard to find
fresh build w/ fresh trans
used/rebuilder
rebuilder/core
http://phoenix.daype.com/autos/auto-parts/FORD-351M-400-MOTOR-PARTS-10000-100-PEORIA-Ad-2237040.html
these guys sell on ebay, for your car i wouldn't go with the Aussie heads though
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Rockatansky
Senior Member Joined: 30-July-2010 Location: On The Road Status: Offline Points: 6059 |
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that's all in the past now with Tim Meyer's pistons
i'm not saying that there's nobody closer or cheaper, but for a 'done right the first time' Ford 400 i'd call www.tmeyerinc.com
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legend onirot
Senior Member METAL GOD Joined: 18-January-2009 Location: hattiesburg ms Status: Offline Points: 3038 |
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i have, in the past, bought remanufactured engines from local parts stores. my dad and i did it with our original torino that my sister ended up with (she drove the car home with the oil light on). i also did it with a 74 ford f100, 360ci. never had a problem with that route.
however, with my current torino, it is all original so i wanted to keep the original block, etc, so i had a reputable local transmission shop rebuild my fmx tranny for about $800... a local speed shop is rebuilding my 351 cleveland engine for about $2800. that will include a new intake, new carb, new cam, etc, and they are cleaning it, painting it, etc... i feel like i did alright on it. still havent gotten my engine back yet but i expect it soon. Edited by legend onirot - 11-January-2011 at 12:38PM |
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gpd294
Senior Member Joined: 18-September-2008 Location: Dallas, Texas Status: Offline Points: 2178 |
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Thanks Guys for the help. I hope to start getting bids very soon. I have a buddy that is a mechanic and I have spoken to him about possibly attempting to get this motor to fire prior to pulling anything out. I need to drop the gas tank and have it cleaned and looked over to make sure it is sealed and in good repair. I definitely understand that the more I do labor wise will help in the long run.
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Carlos....1975 Gran Torino Squire Station Wagon restored to look like a 1973 Torino Station
Wagon my Dad bought new from McAnary Ford on June 6, 1973 in Gary,Indiana |
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Rockatansky
Senior Member Joined: 30-July-2010 Location: On The Road Status: Offline Points: 6059 |
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it's entirely possible that your engine can be 'brought back' with just a bearing, ring & gasket set with a quick berry-bush hone.
MANY times a good engine is rebuilt when all it needed is to be 'gone through', a carb kit, fuel pump & some TLC
if that carb has sat dry for that long be sure to clean it out and throw a kit into it before trying to fire the engine, the bowl will have some dry residue that you don't want to flow through the internal passages
even if you don't get it to fire you can run a dry & wet compression test and or a cylinder leakdown test so you have an idea what to look for when you get it apart, if that's needed
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gpd294
Senior Member Joined: 18-September-2008 Location: Dallas, Texas Status: Offline Points: 2178 |
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Well as it turns out my 351M/400 was seized up after all. My mechanic sprayed lubricant in it and let it sit for a few days, but it wouldn't budge. So what I decided to do is have the engine re-built versus finding another used engine.
My question is this. My mechanics engine builder quoted me $2800 for a basic re-build, but when I go online or call local engine rebuilders I have gotten quotes bewteen $900-$1200 for a premium long block assembly. This is pretty much what they do:
PREMIUM LONG BLOCK - Long Block Assembly with New Rocker Arms and Push Rods installed and pre set. Engine is then spin-tested and pre run on Sim-Test Machine for proper oil flow, oil pressure & compression.
LONG BLOCK ASSEMBLY - Short Block with remanufactured head(s) assembled and torqued to specifications. Also includes Gasket, Lifters(except rollers), and Oil Pump or Oil Pump Kit. SHORT BLOCK - Engine is thoroughly cleaned, bored, and honed. Connecting rods resized. Crankshafts are ground, oil holes chamfered, and micro polished. Reground or new camshafts custom fitted. All engines have new pistons, pins, rings, rod and main bearings, cam bearings, timing components, and all oil galley, cam and freeze plugs are replaced. Every engine is custom built by professionals, to factory specifications. CYLINDER HEAD(S) - Cylinder heads are burned, blasted, and magnafluxed to check for cracks and cleaned. Rocker arm studs are replaced as needed. Seats and valve faces are reground or replaced. Springs are tested and shimmed or replaced as needed. All heads are machined and resurfaced. All work is guaranteed for 3 years or 36K miles and they claim to use parts that are equal or better than factory new.
Why is my mechanic's engine builder charging more if these folks are doing the same work? or are they?
Also the C-6 is gonna get re-built as well. I have gotten quotes between $775-$1600. I just don't get the drastic price differences. Any ideas from those of you who know???
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Carlos....1975 Gran Torino Squire Station Wagon restored to look like a 1973 Torino Station
Wagon my Dad bought new from McAnary Ford on June 6, 1973 in Gary,Indiana |
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occupant
Senior Member Joined: 23-October-2006 Location: Lawton, OK Status: Offline Points: 1973 |
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Most of the money your mechanic quoted was labor to install it. A long block assembly, premium or not, is just that. No intake, valve covers, oil pan, exhaust manifolds, brackets or accessories, fuel lines, fuel pump, water pump, etc etc etc.
Engine installation labor should run $600-$1200 depending on the shop. Because of my own experiences, I recommend the engine and transmission be removed together, then separated out of the vehicle. Should prevent front pump damage on the transmission. The reason a rebuild costs more is they have to assume your engine is completely shot and replace everything. If your block is shot, they have to source another one. If your crankshaft can't be reground, they have to source another one. Also the engine rebuilders that do lots of engines do just that. LOTS of engines. So they have sort of an assembly line working and that saves money. Since you are trying to have a '73 model wagon, why not use a '73 model engine? A 351-2V engine would be more appropriate and you'd really only have to change the engine mounts and locate a small pattern C6 or an FMX to install behind it. Personally I would recommend doing this: http://dallas.craigslist.org/ndf/pts/2420626261.html Fully rebuilt '77 truck 400 for $850 up in Anna (next town north of McKinney up 75) That'll bolt right up to your C6 once it's built. Stick your oil pan and valve covers on the engine, build a fresh 2150 carb, slap on your intake and exhaust manifolds and new water and fuel pumps, and it's good to go. |
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08 Uplander LS, 262K, broken again
08 Explorer EB, 195K, for the wife still looking for another something |
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Rockatansky
Senior Member Joined: 30-July-2010 Location: On The Road Status: Offline Points: 6059 |
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first off, is it a 351M or a 400?
the valve cover tag will list the Engine Family as 351M/400 then on another line list the actual displacement. if it's a 351M i'd build it as a 400 by using a 400 crank and ordering 400 pistons... or you could just buy the 400 rebuilt with warranty but they may not credit the core if yours is a 351M
the engines are externally identical and interchangeable, the only difference is the crank & pistons. in 1975 the 400 got de-stroked and the 351M was born
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72 GT Ute
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gpd294
Senior Member Joined: 18-September-2008 Location: Dallas, Texas Status: Offline Points: 2178 |
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Ok, well I feel like I am at least in the ball park and am not getting gouged then in those quotes. The engine is a 400. I know it is a lot of work to remove and replace an engine and get it running correctly so I don't mind forking out a lil more to get done right, but I am on a budget so luckily my mechanic is allowing me to lend a hand here and there so if nothing else I learn a thing or two.
Any other suggestions are welcome!
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Carlos....1975 Gran Torino Squire Station Wagon restored to look like a 1973 Torino Station
Wagon my Dad bought new from McAnary Ford on June 6, 1973 in Gary,Indiana |
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unlovedford
Senior Member Joined: 17-December-2010 Location: Tennessee Status: Offline Points: 10142 |
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Most of the time, I look around for an engine that is already built that I can drive and test out. I like used engines, as I don't have to "core" any of my original parts, have less money in it, get the extras included with the donor, and know that it will run once it's installed. I've built a few engines and have always been happy, but still think that finding a no or low mileage donor is the smart route for me.
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Joe
1972 Mom's Squire Wagon 1972 Torino Wagon 1976 Torino 1968 Cougar XR7-First batch 1972 Torino 460 1989 BroncoII/Jeeps/Titanimous Popeye and Brutus (Rams) |
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