Oil Pump Failure |
Post Reply |
Author | |
MontegoMan351
Member Joined: 22-October-2005 Status: Offline Points: 79 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Posted: 03-July-2006 at 8:43AM |
I was driving to work this morning when the worst happened, my car died going 70 on the interstate. I was driving along when the motor died, moved to the side of the road tried to diagnose on the side of the road...no spark. Got it towed home checked rotor button...alinnment pin broke, slop in distributor drive, Hmmmmmmmmm. I pulled out the distbirutor and found about 5 teeth sheared off...but why? I took the extra vehicle to college for my class, I got to wondering what made the teeth shear off like that... oil pump seisure? Maybe, I returned home to test my theory, I grabbed a socket and a long extension and tried to turn the drive by hand... nothing... my oil pump took a dump. I have the '73 Ford shop manual and it gives the way to do it without pulling motor... I don't have the money to pull the motor and give it a hp build like I want, so I am hoping that the oil pump replacement will work for now and I hope no other damage was done. Should I put a stock replacement back in or go with a high pressure or high volume pump, any recommentations? I also have to pull the front cover to put a cam in it just to be on the safe side. I figure that after 35 yeary it is about time for a new cam. Who only knows how many miles are on this car...the odo only says 35,000...yeah right. I am going with a slight perf. cam .458 int./.484 exh. 260/270 dur. matching lifters and double roller timing set. This will be the first cam I have ever done... and tips or tricks to help me out? Is it still recommended to soak the lifters, I've heard of ill effects if this is done. This ordeal made for a horrible start to the day. Thanks for all your help and have a happy 4th, Chris
|
|
1973 Montego MX, 351 Cleveland 2v SEFI, '88 LSC EFI harn. and Fuel rails, Adj. Fuel Pres. Reg., A9L Mustang Computer, 76 mm Mass Air Housing. W/R AOD, Lock Right Locker, Electric Fan. 3G Alternator.
|
|
Nevsryd
Senior Member Joined: 28-July-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 50 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
My bet is that the cam went. Make sure that the cam bearings are good, if they show signs of wear don't replace the cam without replacing them.
|
|
MontegoMan351
Member Joined: 22-October-2005 Status: Offline Points: 79 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
The oil pump intermediate shaft is locked up, I cannot even turn it with a ratchet. However, I will check the bearings. Thanks
|
|
1973 Montego MX, 351 Cleveland 2v SEFI, '88 LSC EFI harn. and Fuel rails, Adj. Fuel Pres. Reg., A9L Mustang Computer, 76 mm Mass Air Housing. W/R AOD, Lock Right Locker, Electric Fan. 3G Alternator.
|
|
meemooer
Member Joined: 29-October-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 15 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
thats exactly how mine blew up. I came home one day from school, and shut it off, and it dieseled alot longer then it was previously. Went to move it for something, and it wouldn't start. Checked for spark, and it was a continous arc to the header. So i pulled the cap, and had my buddy crank it, and the rotor didn't turn. ended up pulling the distr. and doing the same thing as you.
I had the whole engine rebuilt, cost me about $2300, including what the shop did, and what i did additionally. I had teeth in my pan, and ... is it the valley, where the cam is. But i noticed my cam was alot worse then what i thought[was only a 6.5 cylinder cam, too many miles and not enough lobe] I would flush all the oil galleries, and clean everything up real good. Replace the bearings regardless, your already in there, might as well freshen the top end up. |
|
MontegoMan351
Member Joined: 22-October-2005 Status: Offline Points: 79 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
This is the first cam I will be doing, is there a special tool to remove and install the cam bearings? What oil pump should I use: stock, high pressure, high volume? I am hoping the engine had enough residual oil and pressure and did no damage to the rest of the engine. When it happeded, I immediately put it in neutral and coasted to a stop accross 4 lanes of morning traffic. Sorry to hear about yours though meemooer, all I can do is hope that no more damage is done than the dist., cam, and oil pump. I'll end up putting a new oil pump drive in it for safe measure. However, I don't know what pump to use. That would change the selection of the oil pump drive. Thanks all
|
|
1973 Montego MX, 351 Cleveland 2v SEFI, '88 LSC EFI harn. and Fuel rails, Adj. Fuel Pres. Reg., A9L Mustang Computer, 76 mm Mass Air Housing. W/R AOD, Lock Right Locker, Electric Fan. 3G Alternator.
|
|
PatsPOS
Member Joined: 06-April-2004 Location: westcentral PA Status: Offline Points: 101 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
I'd strongly recommend using a stock oil pump, so long as you keep the RPMs under 6000 (which, judging from your camshaft selection, shouldn't be too hard). I learned the hard way about high-volume oil pumps and factory oil pans...the Melling HV pump will suck the stock pan dry on my 460 in less than a minute if I make a sustained top-end charge over say, 5500 RPM. Not to worry about what you might read about 335- and 385-series engines having poor oiling systems...for a street cruiser or mild bracket car, a stock oil pump will have no problems at all keeping up with demand.
I concur with inspecting your cam bearings before you go nuts changing 'em. Yeah, there's a tool you need to change them, and from my extremely limited experience with changing cam bearings, they are a bear. IMO, considering the fact that you're putting a fresh oil pump in, a little wear on the cam bearings shouldn't be an issue, but obviously, if they're extremely worn, pitted, scored, etc., then they should be changed.
Nice choice of cam, too. Soaking the lifters ain't recommended these days; just use plenty of assembly lube on the cam lobes and journals, and the lifters. Don't forget to set your lifter preload to .060" (there should be instructions with the lifters). OTOH, variable-duration lifters (which shouldn't be necessary with that mild cam) should be set at zero lash...ANOTHER lesson I learned the hard way!
Hope this helps....and good luck!
Pat Edited by PatsPOS - 03-July-2006 at 6:57PM |
|
MontegoMan351
Member Joined: 22-October-2005 Status: Offline Points: 79 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
I did not think the preload had to be set on hydraulic lifters. I'll check the wear on the bearings for damage, I did not want to go overboard with the cam because it is still a daily driver.
Thanks for the input by the way, I wasn't shure about the oil pump hype, so thanks for steering me in the right direction.
I still have to wait for the cam, lifters, and timing set to come in, so I am trying to get the facts and opinions from those who know more than me at this. I got the thick ARP assembly lube from a local speed shop yesterday, it is moly based and extremely thick.
Also, going to run the Rotella T 15w-40 oil as breakin oil as per the comp. and crane cam tech. bulletins, because of the high zinc content.
|
|
1973 Montego MX, 351 Cleveland 2v SEFI, '88 LSC EFI harn. and Fuel rails, Adj. Fuel Pres. Reg., A9L Mustang Computer, 76 mm Mass Air Housing. W/R AOD, Lock Right Locker, Electric Fan. 3G Alternator.
|
|
djdevlin540
New Member Joined: 29-May-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
With the pan off, pull a main cap and a rod cap. At 70MPH crank bearings go REALLY fast! Check crank for scoring. If the journals/bearings are not damaged, do the cam , licfters and bearings if needed. imho
|
|
djdevlin
|
|
JimW
Senior Member Joined: 09-December-2003 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 602 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
For added insurance when breaking in the new cam, throw a bottle of GM EOS in there, it's been highly recommended for flat tappet cams lately.. I used it on mine for the first two oil changes just to be sure... You should be able to get it at any Generic Motors dealership.. I second the use of a regular pump, and a good look at what is in the bottom of your pan. Pulling a cap to be sure won't hurt eaither as long as you reattach it to spec.. With any luck, with the motor shut down, you may not have killed any bearings, but what I find unusual is that the oil pump shaft usually breaks b4 the teeth strip off the dizzy gear..
Jim
|
|
1976 S&H Gran Torino
460/C6/4.33 13.05@105.6 545/C6/3.56 11.52@117.8 More to come!!!! 463rwhp/495rwtq two tons of fun see it and hear it at: www.torinocobra.com www.st |
|
MontegoMan351
Member Joined: 22-October-2005 Status: Offline Points: 79 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Thanks for the tip on the GM EOS, I'll get some before I start tearing it down. I figure that it wouldn't hurt to pull a rod bearing and a main bearing, I guess it would be better to know when the pan is off than when it is all back together and running; then a strange noise pops up. I've got the '73 manuals with all the torque specs, so that is no problem there. I guess I am lucky either way that the teeth broke and not the oil pump shaft. That happened to a guys fox- body Mustang I know, it kept running with no oil pressure and seized the motor before he turned it off.
Do Clevelands commonly have low oil pressure? Cold-it has almost 50. but warm-it drops to less than 10. I don't know if this is normal or if it is a symptom of a worn bottom end. It has been like this for as long as I have owned it ~4 years. Should I be concerned, do you think? I know quite a bit about engines but have never been through one.
I saw a high pressure spring for this pump, but I am wondering if they are worth the hype or if they are bogus and do no good for a street motor.
Anyway, I am glad it destroyed the dissy gear making it loose spark and stopping the motor. I am hoping I get lucky and that is all the damage is done. I hope I will be driving it soon and not completely going through the motor.
I got the oil pump today, as per everyones recommendations, its a standard replacement. Got the drive to be on the safe side and the primer, I know that a socket and extension would work fine but, an AutoZone loan-a-tool; you cant go wrong.
I'll see about running to the Chebby dealer toworrow to get the EOS.
Thanks a lot to everyone who helped with the tips, suggestions, and ideas. You guys are great, Chris.
|
|
1973 Montego MX, 351 Cleveland 2v SEFI, '88 LSC EFI harn. and Fuel rails, Adj. Fuel Pres. Reg., A9L Mustang Computer, 76 mm Mass Air Housing. W/R AOD, Lock Right Locker, Electric Fan. 3G Alternator.
|
|
Eliteman76
Admin Group Joined: 20-March-2006 Location: Nebraska, USA Status: Offline Points: 5044 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Just from my limited exeperiance; I spoke with the guy that runs MPG heads about my '72 351c 4V CJ, and I would run a good quality stock pump, with the Moroso spring kit.
I would take your filter, and slice it open, and OPEN UP the filter material.
look in it, see if there are any metal particles of decent size in it. A trans guy I know taught me by opening up filters, you can save yourself alot of grief.
I bet your cam is well overdue, probably with 10psi, you are not going to like my answer.
I had a Elite with a 351W, cold it's pressure was 45-50psi, warm, it dropped to under 10psi.
I put a new pump in, did not help.
You engine is probably due for a complete rebuild, I know this is not something you want to hear.
If you are going through the engine, and don't know the history of the heads, I would be paranoid of the valves, and would look into having the heads atleast checked out if nothing else.
I had my '79 f150 with a rebuilt 400 being dogged with a 15 year old rebuilt engine. Was using antifreeze, but not showing it. Also had a couple burnt valves, so they either got replaced or cleaned up.
look into a new timing set, Cloyes makes a double rolar, $55 or so at most parts stores.
If you have never torn an engine down, just take your time, get a divided tray for the bolts, or like me at times, use ziplock bags or small boxes, and a marker.
Go maybe pick up a book on the 351c / 385 series engines, and do some reading.
Hope it's not too torn up.
Andy
|
|
Andrew:GTS.ORG admin, '72 Q code 5 speed Restomod
Pondering: #99Problems |
|
MontegoMan351
Member Joined: 22-October-2005 Status: Offline Points: 79 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Well, I pulled the cam out tonight and the front bearing was toast. I did not even look at the rest. The lobes were pretty rounded, and the lifters had a slight concave. Does anyone know how to put in cam bearings? The book says to drop the crank, if I go that far I might as well do a complete rebuild. I have heard horror stories about the valves and seen the end result. I may as well have a valve job and screw in rocker studs done. Run some roller rockers and stainless valves since I already have the motor pretty well stripped.
If I do have to rebuild, should I run flat tops? I don't want the motor to be too wild, but would like to have power in such a large car.
I guess I should go ahead and get hardened valve seats installed. Well, tomorrow I will know whether or not I have to do the complete rebuild when I pull the pan and rod and main caps. I figure I'll have a slightly warmed up motor by the time I'm done, the way things are going. With the cam bearings being that bad I can only imagine the shape of the mains and rods.
Well, thanks for the replies.
Chris
|
|
1973 Montego MX, 351 Cleveland 2v SEFI, '88 LSC EFI harn. and Fuel rails, Adj. Fuel Pres. Reg., A9L Mustang Computer, 76 mm Mass Air Housing. W/R AOD, Lock Right Locker, Electric Fan. 3G Alternator.
|
|
JimW
Senior Member Joined: 09-December-2003 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 602 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
If you toasted the cam bearings, you probabably have at least a bunch of wear in the bottom end.. And if you've been sending metal through the motor from the cam lobes, you should take this as a sign and go through the whole motor. Yes to good stainless valves, and for a decent combo and general Cleveland advice, check out the 335 series forum on Network54 (http://www.network54.com/Forum/119419/)
With a mild cam, 9.5:1 compression, a little touch up on the ports and appropriate induction/exhaust, you can have a nice streetable 380hp...
Jim
|
|
1976 S&H Gran Torino
460/C6/4.33 13.05@105.6 545/C6/3.56 11.52@117.8 More to come!!!! 463rwhp/495rwtq two tons of fun see it and hear it at: www.torinocobra.com www.st |
|
Eliteman76
Admin Group Joined: 20-March-2006 Location: Nebraska, USA Status: Offline Points: 5044 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Well, a place to start, would be to get the block out of the car, and take it to a machine shop. Cam bearings are toast, so have them knocked out, and get that block cleaned and checked out. My thoughts, depending on the engine and heads, I would honestly sugget looking up MPG heads, and he could give you some simple advice, and suggest what to do. The used to pro-race clevelands, so he knows his stuff. My thoughts, empty the block, get it checked and cleaned, have them do the machine work, and if you are leary, let them assemble the bottom end. The cranks were usually pretty stought, and could be cleaned up with new bearings. Not sure, but I have been considering crower internals for my cobra jet, but for what I want, and what I truly need, I am not sure yet. Flat tops from what I have read and found out, would be fine. Part of the combo though is what heads you have, I saw it's 2bbl heads, but maybe you can have the head decked to bump the compression a little. |
|
Andrew:GTS.ORG admin, '72 Q code 5 speed Restomod
Pondering: #99Problems |
|
MontegoMan351
Member Joined: 22-October-2005 Status: Offline Points: 79 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Well, I pulled the engine and got it all tore down. Before I got it on the stand, I soaked all the exhaust manifold bolts with PB Blaster. All the bolts came right out, thank goodness for PB. All the rods and mains are fine, minimal pitting and wear on the crank. I may not need to have it machined undersize. But I'll let the machine shop measure them. All the cylinders have a very slight ridge, all the pistons came out though without a ridge reamer.
I got the stainless 1 piece valves, roller rockers, rocker stud and pushrod and guide plate set, and nylon valve stem seals online last night.
I am going to have the heads cleaned, magnafluxed, machined for screw in studs, and a 2 or 3 angle valve job done. I am going to stick with the cam and lifters I had purchased a while ago. Also, I'm probably putting in flat top pistons. I want the motor not to be too wild, I still drive it everyday to work.
I finally got the oil plug above the filter out. I'm going to run an external oil line to the back with some 3/8" steel tubing.
Chris
Oh yeah, I also had 3 broken compression rings. Edited by MontegoMan351 - 11-July-2006 at 4:04PM |
|
1973 Montego MX, 351 Cleveland 2v SEFI, '88 LSC EFI harn. and Fuel rails, Adj. Fuel Pres. Reg., A9L Mustang Computer, 76 mm Mass Air Housing. W/R AOD, Lock Right Locker, Electric Fan. 3G Alternator.
|
|
Post Reply | |
Tweet |
Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |