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400 Modified - Build Experience

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unlovedford View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote unlovedford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: 400 Modified - Build Experience
    Posted: 19-August-2013 at 3:23PM
Any suggestions for a good build on this 400 I have? Thinking of going with it in C's car (hers is a factory S code anyhow). Any examples of good combinations that will yield great torque and reasonable power (plus reliability) would be great. We'll use the C6 out of the Ranchero as well and will be building it, too. She wants something that will wake up the car, not so much on top end as something hard out of the hole and at most 1/4 mile. It needs to be streetable, so thinking a 3.55 ratio?
Joe
1972 Mom's Squire Wagon
1972 Torino Wagon
1976 Torino       
1968 Cougar XR7-First batch
1972 Torino 460
1989 BroncoII/Jeeps/Titanimous
Popeye and Brutus (Rams)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote superroo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-August-2013 at 12:17AM
hope this helps, it's not meant to discourage you :) just the thinking i went thru when i was trying to work out what to do with my 72.  But I think my goals were a little higher.
 
I've taken out the mild 400 that was in the 72 when i bought it.  had:
- a baby cam (don't have the grind details sorry - assume it's the lowest street cam from crow or crane)
- performer manifold
- 750 vacsec
- original 2v heads with no work i'm aware of
- std comp - a horribly low 9.0:1 if memory serves
- badly made (for, not by, Previous Owner) 1 5/8" 4>2>1 extractors
- 2.5" dual system. 
 
PO's dyno chart shows 150rwhp. i think factory was 168 gross at fly wheel? felt like lots of torq, but nfi how to read the dyno dynamics chart... 5600 N @ 50km/hh = 30mi/h, whatever that means.
sounded nice. 
 
The torq would get it rolling, but any v6 from the last 10 yrs would have dusted it.  it's not that i want to race at stop lights, but the car deserves to be faster than some pos GM sedan. original 2.75 open wheeler did not help, 3.5s would have woken it up a bit for sure. as it was, the idle made them all look the other way and i cruised off like it wasn't worth my time.... LOL 
 
I got a lot of advice that i shouldn't bother with the 400 given how oddball it is and how off the shelf parts are so restricted.  just little things like the wider valley means all the good clevo manifolds that are easily available in aus dont fit without spacers, bearings are weird sizes, rods and pistons are weird sizes (i think - i remember reading it was the longest stroke of any factory ford engine).
 
its not to say it can't be done, and i was tempted to go for it just to prove people wrong :) i read this article 100 times, but it's a lot of messing about: http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engine/hrdp_0702_ford_400m_engine_build/
 
but in the end, i could get a 460 with a couple of healthy mods and make more power, cheaper (even here! and we didnt get them in any factory fords), with a wider range of parts and tech support.
 
There's some promise to the basic geometry of the 400, and clevo heads are great - have you seen this? http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tech/0902phr_jon_kaase_400m_ford_engine/viewall.html ... "but this isn't a normal motor."
 
Thanks to that some uber performance parts showing up  (I love CHI) but that's way beyond what you're after.
 
It's hard to say but I expect a moderately warmer built 400 than i had, with the gears, would do the trick for what you describe.  depends if you do the work yourself, but given how much easier it is to find a 385 series over there it's still a tough sell to me.
Carl
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote superroo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-August-2013 at 12:22AM
ps 3 yrs later and i'm only just about to get the 460 fired up thanks to "life" (fabbing headers from scratch for the first time didn't help matters).. i could have been driving my slow-arse 72 this whole time... Shocked 
different approach: chuck it in and cruise!!!
 
oh.. looking at your sig... maybe there's no shortage of options for that already :)
Carl
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-August-2013 at 1:28AM
You can build a 400 (it's 400 only, not 400M) fairly easily. Check out TMeyer's website, he is an expert on building 400 Fords. He has a build on there that makes some decent power:

http://www.tmeyerinc.com/

The biggest issue with the 400 Ford is getting a decent piston since there are virtually none in the aftermarket. You can bush a 351C piston to work (the small end of the rods have a larger hole than the 351C on the 400), but the piston will still not be zero decked this way. Some will deck the block then to bring the piston closer to zero deck. A better option in my opinion, is to just buy a set from TMeyer. He makes a set of Hyper pistons that will have 9.3:1 compression with the stock heads. He also has a set of pistons that will be 9.5:1 with Aussie 302 heads, but of course you have to also buy the Aussie heads. The advantage with Aussie heads is that you will also get a quench combustion chamber like the early 351C 4V heads. T Meyer has said most builds don't need the Aussie heads and that the stock 400 heads are good enough for most builds (avoid 1975+ 400 heads).

The 400 is limited in intake choices too, with only dual plane options. This is not an issue if you want a street engine. However, adaptor plates can be purchased to use 351C intakes. These plates are available for 4V heads if you choose to go that route, but there are no headers for a 400 with 4V heads. Of course cam selection is the same as what's available for a 351C, so there is a large variety.

I plan to build my 400 when I get the funds. I am going to get a rebuild kit from TMeyer, including the 9.3:1 hyper pistons. I will run my stock heads, a cam that's not too wild, decent ignition, and 4bbl carb intake with headers. I am certain this will be a strong enough street engine for me I think it's better than swapping a 460 as at least I will still have my original engine. The 400 Ford is a very underrated engine like the 72+ Torinos. Remember it's a 335 series engine like the 351C, it just has a taller deck height, and bigger mains.

Also check out this forum, there is tons of good info and TMeyer often posts here too:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/119419/
Vince

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote unlovedford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-August-2013 at 1:49AM
Hmm. Thanks guys. I drove the Ranchero last night with safety glasses (no windshield) before the rear gets pulled out just to see what it had. Lots of torque, but seemed to run out of power as I stayed in it. Just trying to find an excuse to salvage a running engine that is no longer made.

That little voice inside keeps telling me to look at a stroker 351W. They make great power, weigh less, and would cost about what I could build this 400 for.

Although some may think I am cold-hearted and wield a torch in one hand and a sawzall in the other, I do have a soft spot and hate to scrap a running engine.
Joe
1972 Mom's Squire Wagon
1972 Torino Wagon
1976 Torino       
1968 Cougar XR7-First batch
1972 Torino 460
1989 BroncoII/Jeeps/Titanimous
Popeye and Brutus (Rams)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-August-2013 at 1:56AM
Hey Joe,

If you want a stroker, TMeyer also makes a stroker kit for a 400. Now that would be a torque monster! If you do swap a 351W, think about all the other changes, different tranny bell housing, motor mounts, accessory brakets, etc. Be different, build the 400!

Do some research on the engine if you are serious, they do have a lot of potential.

Vince

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark S. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-August-2013 at 8:32AM
I had a 400 in a 71 LTD ragtop, many years ago, when I was young and poor. (Now I'm just poor, lol!) I threw on dual exhaust, and Accel dual-point dizzy, and a 500 cfm Holley 2 barrel carb. And that car RIPPED!!! It was a top end car, not a quarter-miler. One night, about 4 am,  on the way home from the street racing scene in Philly (down near the old JFK stadium, back in late 70's, early 80's) I ran a 69 Mustang on I-95. I had the speedo buried at 120+ when I heard a huge bang and watched billows of smoke pouring out from the Mustang's hood as he blew the engine. I guess he wasn't geared for highway running.
 
OK DISCLAIMER: STREET RACING IS STUPID AND NOBODY SHOULD DO IT> I'm lucky to be alive from the dangerous sh*t I did back then, and I'm really, really grateful I never had an accident or hurt somebody!!!!
Mark
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robbdtme Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-August-2013 at 6:43AM
400's changed almost every year, Pistons and  head chamber volumes. Mainly because of poor octane fuel and dieseling spark knock problems. ( 400's had higher stock compression ). Look up your heads chamber volume and piston type, Common 77 up 351M heads will likely increase your compression ratio easily. Main thing with these is remember to long 4" stroke so build it for high torque to about 5k rpm unless some serious bottom rpm work is done. Stock bottom end is not going to take 6k rpm for long. Run premium fuel and don't be afraid to run the timing a little advanced past spec. You will be impressed. Heck just changing the timing chain to eliminate the 4 degree cam retardation will impress you. For fuel 600-650 CFM is plenty up to 5800 rpm's. My 400 built to a 434 stroker feeds nicely on a Barry Grant 625.
Johnny cash Special 74-75-76 freak. 77 XR7. 78 LTD II sport looks pretty but poop 302 in it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote robot9000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-August-2013 at 7:13AM
Sell the 400 and buy a 351W and a Scat stroked crank.  Nearly 400CI stroked and you can then buy cheap(er) go fast stuff:
E Street heads for under $1K/Pair
Intake of your choice
Pistons of your choice (note the compression if you go after market heads and a stroker kit. Nice problem to have tho...)
Cams - pick one.

The parts bin is endless with a 351W......
1973 Gran Torino Sport
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-August-2013 at 2:24PM
Check out Bubba's M-block page for info on stock heads and other parts:

http://grantorinosport.org/BubbaF250/parts/parts02.html

Keep in mind, some later 400 heads have smaller chambers than the early heads, however, after 1975 the exhaust ports are much more restrictive. The early heads are pretty much the same as 351C-2V heads (I know in 1972 they use the same part number for both 351-2V and 400).

I don't see how a 400 would be more expensive than a 351W stroker. A 400 rebuild kit from TMeyer with his pistons for the higher compression ratio (I think they were about $800), a cam, an intake and stock heads would make a strong street engine for relatively low cost. Look at that Hot Rod build , something like 380 hp, 400+ft-lbs, with STOCK heads. 351W means, new motor mounts, new transmission, plus all the parts for the stroker.

It's too bad Ford had to make so many differences between the 400 and the 351C that make many parts not interchangeable for basically the same design. If they made the 400 Ford like the 400 Chev, where most internal parts were the same as the smaller 350, I think this engine would have had much more aftermarket support.

Vince

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote superroo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-August-2013 at 1:50PM
oh oops, going back over some stuff, dates on dyno chart confirm the 150rwhp was prior to the previous owner rebuilding it.  knew that sounded wrong!
i found my original post on torinocobra saying it was making 185 rwkw (248rwhp) when i bought it, but i can't find the chart for that now.
Carl
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