@&$!%$@& Headers |
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GranTorinoSport
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Posted: 30-July-2014 at 6:23PM |
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Precursor statement:
If you have a big block stroker motor, headers are essentially a must. Further, the Hooker super comp ceramic coated headers are the best out there hands down. They took a tight space and made a performance header work, and ceramic coated it on top of that. The headers are built well and perform their task admirably. With that being said…. I blew out a header gasket. The bolts have been loosening up on me (small head ARP header bolts, stainless). I am going to a good exhaust shop tomorrow for the exhaust system (been just running some cheap cherry bomb style things), so I figured I'd replace the Percy's XX Carbon with a Percy's super seal one (whatever they call it) - I have had good luck with it in other applications. So I start loosening up header bolts, get most of them out (except the two semi-captive ones, far cylinder 5 & 6 I believe). Then I realize that I can't actually move the header enough to take the old gasket out and put the new one in. I then decide (since I already have an appointment at the exhaust shop) that I just need to put together what I have and roll with it. I have drill this weekend so I was going to take the Torino to Spokane this weekend (and next week) as the "final test". I quickly realized that what I *really* need to do, is to get my engine hoist, undo the motor mount on the drivers side, and lift that side of the engine up enough to get it off of the frame and the steering gear. That is more than a quick after-work evening job. And certainly something I don't have time to do before a big trip. I hope the header gasket holds enough for the trip as-is. Why am I posting this? I don't really have a question per se, more of a rant really. However is someone sees anything flawed with my logic, please let me know. I like the headers, or at least I really try to. They are necessary, but like a root canal you just have to curse it out. Done. For now anyway.
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Scott Eklund
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Rockatansky
Senior Member Joined: 30-July-2010 Location: On The Road Status: Offline Points: 6072 |
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in all the years I've owned a set of SuperCraps, like 30+ ?, they've only been sealed for about 17 minutes total
at one point I got semi-serious about getting the gaskets hold & make them sound right. I carefully looked at the weld beads around the ports on the sealing sides of the flanges... & they were whacked all over the place. with a straightedge it was easy to see why they wouldn't seal. so I got to work with a flat file & started knocking down the high spots until I thought we had a chance but it was not to be. the weld beads around the ports were not matching up to the solid surface of the head. the weld beads were inside the ports in some places so the gasket wasn't being sandwiched. it'll last until the gasket burns through were it's not sandwiched
I tried to like them, I tried to make them work... Fail, and Fail the only thing I didn't ever try was to use RTV only w/o gaskets. some guys say it'll work I may try the RTV first on this new set of headers I have, just a heavy silicone bead around the outside of the weld beads so I'm sure I'm inside the port ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ another option to headers... extrude honed manifolds & ceramic coat inside & out isn't there a CJ / Police manifold that's better than regular production? |
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72 GT Ute
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aquartlow
Senior Member Joined: 19-December-2011 Location: Summerfield, Fl Status: Offline Points: 2271 |
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Scott,
I had issues trying to find exhaust gaskets that fit my ported DOVE-C heads & 6126 Hookers, my 6126's(purchased in '92 so later model 6126's port size may be different) port size IS somewhere between a stock 429-460 port and a CJ/SCJ 429 port. I did a bit of research and found these gaskets at Summit Racing, http://www.summitracing.com/parts/fog-7021 They have port size of 2.18" H X 1.550" W, most 429-460 header gaskets have a smaller port size, thus handicapping exhaust flow and going against my reasoning for buying headers in the first place. I totally agree with Rockatansky on Hooker's weld ring deal to sandwich the header-gasket-cylinder head, not the best looking weld job at all. I have used these gaskets for about 1.5 years with absolutely no issues, in fact, I just removed the passenger side header on my Ranchero to polish the aluminized/ceramic coating to get rid of small rust spots(I will be sending them to Nitroplate for a better finish) and found the gaskets were in great shape. I ordered another set of these for re-installation, I only use gaskets one time, saves on headaches. Hope this helps. Todd Edited by aquartlow - 31-July-2014 at 1:10AM |
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www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires. No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t. Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone. |
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SininenIII
Senior Member Joined: 06-March-2008 Location: Vuolenkoski FIN Status: Offline Points: 462 |
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My old headers had poor flanges, got them sealed with gaskets and Permatex Ultra Copper.
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Aatu
73 Gran Torino Sport |
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miketorino
Member Joined: 07-February-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 53 |
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I used black RTV on my last torino with hedders. Just set a nice thick bead on them, let it set for about 20mins and then install the hedder
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Big Bird
Senior Member Joined: 25-August-2013 Location: New York Status: Offline Points: 4194 |
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+1 on ultra copper! always worked for me in the past. |
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"What we do in full frontal view, is more honest than your cleaned-up mind."
Randy 1979 T-Bird 2005 F-150 STX RCSB 4.6, 3.55 LSD How the Heck does a REGULAR CAB SHORTBED weigh over 5200 pounds? |
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mlachance112785
Senior Member Joined: 31-May-2012 Location: Dighton, MA Status: Offline Points: 343 |
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I'm currently running these on my car with the same Super Comps.
They leak significantly less than what they did. I've just come to terms with the leaks until next time I pull the motor. They have those gaskets for the CJ style heads too. I'd definitely recommend trying these. I was never really able to fully tighten the rear bolts down because of the A/C box. Now that it's gone, I'm confident I can get rid of the leaks. Hopefully this helps. |
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77 Cougar XR7 460/C6
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GranTorinoSport
Admin Group Admin of "The Org" Joined: 20-May-2003 Location: Seattle Status: Offline Points: 2287 |
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I have heard great things about remflex, and yes I have just recently considered them as the exhaust shop I went to yesterday used remflex for collector gaskets.
My problem I have had is the header bolts loosen up. I don't mind tightening them periodically, but this is getting silly. Is there anything I can do to keep them from loosening? I was thinking high temp thread locker - but what do others do? |
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aquartlow
Senior Member Joined: 19-December-2011 Location: Summerfield, Fl Status: Offline Points: 2271 |
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I use 7/8" "under head" length header bolts with stainless flat washers(I use the washers due to having my headers coated and not wanting the coating to be ground off while torqueing the header bolts) and haven't had any loosening problems. Only the #5 exhaust port bolt nearest the firewall requires the shorter 3/4" length header bolt, due to the sharp bend(my header set anyhow). The only issue I can see using and RTV or other sealants is the "look" it will give if not applied correctly and/or the correct amount. Too much will look "ghetto" or "redneck", even though sealing them is the ultimate reason, I couldn't accept looking at a goopy mess everytime I open the hood. These are the header bolts I use, ARP stainless is a better option.
The main reason I use 7/8" bolts is that the 3/4" header bolts engaged less than 3/8" of the threads in the cylinder head, more engagement equals less likely to strip threads. Stage 8 has a good locking system for header bolt. Good luck, Todd
Edited by aquartlow - 02-August-2014 at 4:01AM |
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www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires. No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t. Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone. |
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TV 2M8O
Senior Member Joined: 20-September-2006 Location: Southern Ohio Status: Offline Points: 2052 |
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My Crites 460 headers arrived today. I'll post some pics of them tomorrow..... Doesn't Stage 8 offer a locking header bolt?? |
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TV 2M8O OUT JOE 1976 Gran Torino S&H season 2-4 Clone Project Blog: http://tv2m8o.blogspot.com/ |
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californiajohnny
Moderator Group Joined: 05-October-2013 Location: winlock, wa Status: Offline Points: 14609 |
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stage 8 locking header bolts:
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JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE 74 VETTE CUSTOM 90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED 77 CELICA CUSTOM 75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED 79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED 75 VEGA V6 5 SPD 70 CHEV C10 P/U 68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION |
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Rockatansky
Senior Member Joined: 30-July-2010 Location: On The Road Status: Offline Points: 6072 |
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there are those that should be dis-allowed from; purchasing, possessing, engaging in the practice of, using, applying or dabbling in whatnot & wherefor anything to with semi-viscous putty & gel like substances that cure to an aesthetic permanent condition you know who you are! doesn't make you a bad dude by any means but damn step away from the tube For Pete's Sake it took me like 16 hours to un-caulk my bathroom & re-caulk it again because my guy, it looked he didn't even wash his hands after doing wallboard & tile repair then smeared dirty caulk all over the walls. Thanks A Lot A Man Has Got To Know His Limitations ~ Harry Calahan Edited by Rockatansky - 01-August-2014 at 2:36PM |
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72 GT Ute
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aquartlow
Senior Member Joined: 19-December-2011 Location: Summerfield, Fl Status: Offline Points: 2271 |
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Not sure if the above comment was pointed toward myself, but I wouldn't be the one leaving a mess, believe me I take pride in my work(at times too much). I would like to see the end results from anyone using the red or copper high temp sealants for sealing headers to the exhaust ports AFTER snaking them into position and not have the sealant smeared either on the headers, the exhaust ports and/or their hands. Not saying you couldn't wipe it off and/or get good results, I was just suggesting that "good" header gaskets are manufactured for a reason, why not use them. |
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www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires. No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t. Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone. |
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75GranMan
Senior Member Joined: 05-April-2011 Location: Colchester, CT Status: Offline Points: 1225 |
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I have a brand new set of stage 8 locking header bolts 3/8" X 1" for sale. PM any interests.
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John 75Gran Torino 4spd
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TV 2M8O
Senior Member Joined: 20-September-2006 Location: Southern Ohio Status: Offline Points: 2052 |
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PM sent.....
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TV 2M8O OUT JOE 1976 Gran Torino S&H season 2-4 Clone Project Blog: http://tv2m8o.blogspot.com/ |
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Rockatansky
Senior Member Joined: 30-July-2010 Location: On The Road Status: Offline Points: 6072 |
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not directed toward anyone in particular
even the bestest most expensive gaskets won't last if they're not supported between the squeeze in my case with the 351C-4v exhaust port, it is admittedly a very difficult port to produce a weld bead header flange that'll seal. I really think it should've been a flat flange. if you have any inkling that your gasket will not be completely supported by the squeeze, do an impression with cardboard. just assemble the header to the head with compressable cardboard as a gasket, then remove the cardboard & inspect it on both sides to make sure there are no burn through spots waiting for a new set of gaskets yeah I can imagine that the RTV method can get messy for sure, tight spaces & ooey gooey stuff maybe the 20 min waiting period mentioned has something to do with letting it skin over
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72 GT Ute
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GranTorinoSport
Admin Group Admin of "The Org" Joined: 20-May-2003 Location: Seattle Status: Offline Points: 2287 |
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Doesn't Permatex make a spray-on Ultra Copper for high temp gasket applications? Spray and let set before assembly of stuff like metal exhaust gaskets?
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Scott Eklund
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californiajohnny
Moderator Group Joined: 05-October-2013 Location: winlock, wa Status: Offline Points: 14609 |
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scott, i was trying to remember the company that makes these gaskets, so i just asked at the local parts store, i've never used their gaskets yet but lots of local people have and said that they work great, no complaints! and they're made here in washington.
http://catalog.remflex.com/ |
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JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE 74 VETTE CUSTOM 90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED 77 CELICA CUSTOM 75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED 79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED 75 VEGA V6 5 SPD 70 CHEV C10 P/U 68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION |
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dave302
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GranTorinoSport
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Has anyone used the stage eight bolt kit on an actual pair of hooker 6126's mounted on a 460 inside a mid size? I ask because they look really cool but those recessed areas that some of the bolts get "pushed" into might make it difficult to install? I could barely get the arp small bolts in there. Also would one inch be too long?
Edited by GranTorinoSport - 02-August-2014 at 10:44AM |
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Scott Eklund
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californiajohnny
Moderator Group Joined: 05-October-2013 Location: winlock, wa Status: Offline Points: 14609 |
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they also show this style too:
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JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE 74 VETTE CUSTOM 90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED 77 CELICA CUSTOM 75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED 79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED 75 VEGA V6 5 SPD 70 CHEV C10 P/U 68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION |
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aquartlow
Senior Member Joined: 19-December-2011 Location: Summerfield, Fl Status: Offline Points: 2271 |
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Be careful in what gaskets you choose(if you plan on using a header gasket), even using the larger port header gaskets from Flatout racing only leaves, at best, about 1/8" of gasket in some places to seal the headers to the heads. The 6126 exhaust port's gasket "ring" is larger(mainly taller) than a base 429/460 head (C8VE, C9VE, D0VE-C or D3VE-A2A), please check this yourself to verify the measurements of the gasket against your head's exhaust ports and the 6126's ports. A slightly larger port header gasket is needed, just don't know how much "extra" material is left beyond the stock port on other manufacturer's gaskets. I will try to post pics later to show what I am referring to.
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www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires. No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t. Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone. |
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dave302
Senior Member Joined: 08-October-2009 Location: usa Status: Offline Points: 3171 |
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Click Here to see more locking header bolt kits (for the ford 460-521 engines) for sale, including the ford racing brand (and summit racing brand) locking header bolt kits.
Edited by dave302 - 03-August-2014 at 4:26AM |
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dave302
Senior Member Joined: 08-October-2009 Location: usa Status: Offline Points: 3171 |
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ARP also makes header bolts that are pre-drilled for safety wire to run through all the bolt heads, to stop them from loosening up. But unfortunately these ARP drilled header bolts are only available in two lengths which are: 0.750" UHL (under head length) and 0.875" UHL (under head length). I do not know if they will be long enough for your application.
Click Here to see the size 0.875" header bolts for sale. Click Here to see the size 0.750" header bolts for sale. Click here to see the ARP size 0.875" UHL header bolts for sale from a different seller, This seller is advertising them as stainless steel.
Edited by dave302 - 05-August-2014 at 7:00AM |
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Rockatansky
Senior Member Joined: 30-July-2010 Location: On The Road Status: Offline Points: 6072 |
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^^ this I also found that various makers gaskets have different size port openings, some seem to be designed for flat flanges (only explanation I could come up with) as the port opening skirts in & out of the weld bead perimeter. they'll leak the first time you fire it up & burn out worse from there bottom line is that I don't recall ever finding a PN packaged gasket that would seal my 351C-4V supercomps, not even a 351C-2V gasket could be modified because the outside perimeter is so different that it causes a leak. I even thought about stacking gaskets trimmed to envelope the weld beads but never did get to it, I ended up temporarily swapping on 2V heads so I made sandwich plates to adapt the 4V headers to the 2V X ports. basically just a 16g plate with 4V outside perimeter & 2V port holes can a std BBF gasket be opened up to your port or header bead / whichever is smaller & still seal around the outside?
Edited by Rockatansky - 02-August-2014 at 6:56PM |
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72 GT Ute
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aquartlow
Senior Member Joined: 19-December-2011 Location: Summerfield, Fl Status: Offline Points: 2271 |
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I do remember the huge ports, intake and exhaust, on my fathers '71 351 CJ engine we installed into his '73 Mach1. Not sure if there are gaskets that have enough material to seal the factory port and seal the Hooker's weld bead correctly(other than the Flatout racing #7021, not saying these are the only ones either). The weld bead design actually helps with sealing each header tube to it's respected exhaust port, but the condition that Hooker leaves this weld bead leaves much to be desired. If Hooker could leave a sealing bead that was an honest 3/16" wide all they way around and flat, I believe the leaks would be reduced if not totally eliminated. As much as the 6126's cost, I don't think this isn't too much to ask for. I still to this day don't understand the differences in the 6126's actual port size as compared a stock D2VE or D3VE-A2A exhaust port, that these headers were designed to fit('72-'75 Torino, Ranchero, Montego and etc. with 460-C6). Here some pics of the exhaust gaskets and how wide the weld bead contacts the stock 460 port size. This shows the gasket contacts all of the head's exhaust port, with a little extra. This pic shows a marker outlining the outside of the 460 exhaust port, even with the larger sized port openings these gaskets have, they still need a little more margin width at the top of the port for better header sealing. Scary huh! They never leaked after about 5K miles, but I still don't like it. |
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www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires. No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t. Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone. |
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dave302
Senior Member Joined: 08-October-2009 Location: usa Status: Offline Points: 3171 |
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Here is a lower cost alternative idea: but you will probably have to heat the header bolts up to a temperature between 500 to 550 degrees with a propane torch to loosen them up, if you have to remove them. I do not know if this is a product that the ford motor company recommends for their exhaust manifold bolts. But this product is within the specificatations of General Motors Part Number: 12345493, which is the same threadlocker that General Motors recommends (in their service manual), to be used on the exhaust manifold bolts of the 1997 through 2006 Chevrolet C5 Corvettes. General Motors might even recommend it for use on other years of the Corvette and other General Motors vehicles also. The part number for this threadlocker is 24026. Edited by dave302 - 05-August-2014 at 7:06AM |
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GranTorinoSport
Admin Group Admin of "The Org" Joined: 20-May-2003 Location: Seattle Status: Offline Points: 2287 |
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The stage 8 header bolts and the remflex gaskets look like a possible alternative to try. I will have to look closer at my headers to see if either the style with the long pieces or the shorter ones John found would work. Seems reasonable, though. The ARP locking header bolts also have some potential in my opinion (I learned how to safety wire in the Air Force, so while access is tough it could be done).
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Scott Eklund
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aquartlow
Senior Member Joined: 19-December-2011 Location: Summerfield, Fl Status: Offline Points: 2271 |
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www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires. No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t. Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone. |
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californiajohnny
Moderator Group Joined: 05-October-2013 Location: winlock, wa Status: Offline Points: 14609 |
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i'm not sure the locktight will be that effective on the headers due to the fact that they generate about the same heat required to remove the locktighted bolts! great product! comes in blue (removeable with a wrench) red (heat to remove) green (supposed to be higher strength-- i've never found that to be any different than the red*) but if the stage 8 bolts won't work, yeah safety wiring them should do the trick! (just have to cross drill all the bolt heads) i don't recall ever seeing any header bolts drilled for safety wire
Edited by californiajohnny - 03-August-2014 at 6:42AM |
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JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE 74 VETTE CUSTOM 90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED 77 CELICA CUSTOM 75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED 79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED 75 VEGA V6 5 SPD 70 CHEV C10 P/U 68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION |
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