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GranTorinoSport View Drop Down
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    Posted: 30-July-2014 at 6:23PM
Precursor statement:

If you have a big block stroker motor, headers are essentially a must. Further, the Hooker super comp ceramic coated headers are the best out there hands down. They took a tight space and made a performance header work, and ceramic coated it on top of that. The headers are built well and perform their task admirably. 

With that being said….

I blew out a header gasket. The bolts have been loosening up on me (small head ARP header bolts, stainless). I am going to a good exhaust shop tomorrow for the exhaust system (been just running some cheap cherry bomb style things), so I figured I'd replace the Percy's XX Carbon with a Percy's super seal one (whatever they call it) - I have had good luck with it in other applications. 

So I start loosening up header bolts, get most of them out (except the two semi-captive ones, far cylinder 5 & 6 I believe). Then I realize that I can't actually move the header enough to take the old gasket out and put the new one in. I then decide (since I already have an appointment at the exhaust shop) that I just need to put together what I have and roll with it.

I have drill this weekend so I was going to take the Torino to Spokane this weekend (and next week) as the "final test". 

I quickly realized that what I *really* need to do, is to get my engine hoist, undo the motor mount on the drivers side, and lift that side of the engine up enough to get it off of the frame and the steering gear.

That is more than a quick after-work evening job. And certainly something I don't have time to do before a big trip. I hope the header gasket holds enough for the trip as-is. 

Why am I posting this? I don't really have a question per se, more of a rant really. However is someone sees anything flawed with my logic, please let me know.

I like the headers, or at least I really try to. They are necessary, but like a root canal you just have to curse it out.

Done. For now anyway.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-July-2014 at 8:06PM
in all the years I've owned a set of SuperCraps, like 30+ ?, they've only been sealed for about 17 minutes total
 
at one point I got semi-serious about getting the gaskets hold & make them sound right. I carefully looked at the weld beads around the ports on the sealing sides of the flanges... & they were whacked all over the place. with a straightedge it was easy to see why they wouldn't seal. so I got to work with a flat file & started knocking down the high spots until I thought we had a chance but it was not to be. the weld beads around the ports were not matching up to the solid surface of the head. the weld beads were inside the ports in some places so the gasket wasn't being sandwiched. it'll last until the gasket burns through were it's not sandwiched
Originally posted by GranTorinoSport GranTorinoSport wrote:

I like the headers, or at least I really try to.
 
I tried to like them, I tried to make them work... Fail, and Fail
 
the only thing I didn't ever try was to use RTV only w/o gaskets. some guys say it'll work
 
I may try the RTV first on this new set of headers I have, just a heavy silicone bead around the outside of the weld beads so I'm sure I'm inside the port
 
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
 
another option to headers... extrude honed manifolds & ceramic coat inside & out
 
isn't there a CJ / Police manifold that's better than regular production?
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aquartlow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-July-2014 at 1:09AM
Scott,
 I had issues trying to find exhaust gaskets that fit my ported DOVE-C heads & 6126 Hookers, my 6126's(purchased in '92 so later model 6126's port size may be different) port size IS somewhere between a stock 429-460 port and a CJ/SCJ 429 port. I did a bit of research and found these gaskets at Summit Racing, http://www.summitracing.com/parts/fog-7021
 
Flatout Gaskets 7021 - Flatout Gaskets GPC Header Gaskets
They have port size of 2.18" H X 1.550" W, most 429-460 header gaskets have a smaller port size, thus handicapping exhaust flow and going against my reasoning for buying headers in the first place.
  I totally agree with Rockatansky on Hooker's weld ring deal to sandwich the header-gasket-cylinder head, not the best looking weld job at all.
  I have used these gaskets for about 1.5 years with absolutely no issues, in fact, I just removed the passenger side header on my Ranchero to polish the aluminized/ceramic coating to get rid of small rust spots(I will be sending them to Nitroplate for a better finish) and found the gaskets were in great shape. I ordered another set of these for re-installation, I only use gaskets one time, saves on headaches.
 Hope this helps. Todd
 


Edited by aquartlow - 31-July-2014 at 1:10AM
www.supermotors.net/22468
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SininenIII Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-July-2014 at 2:25AM
My old headers had poor flanges, got them sealed with gaskets and Permatex Ultra Copper.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote miketorino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-July-2014 at 3:21AM
I used black RTV on my last torino with hedders.  Just set a nice thick bead on them, let it set for about 20mins and then install the hedder
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Bird Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-July-2014 at 8:10AM
Originally posted by SininenIII SininenIII wrote:

My old headers had poor flanges, got them sealed with gaskets and Permatex Ultra Copper.

+1 on ultra copper! always worked for me in the past.
The above post should be read in a "Grumpy Old Man" voice.
Almost forgot: "Get off my lawn!!!"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mlachance112785 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-July-2014 at 9:31AM
I'm currently running these on my car with the same Super Comps. 


They leak significantly less than what they did. I've just come to terms with the leaks until next time I pull the motor.  

They have those gaskets for the CJ style heads too. 


I'd definitely recommend trying these. I was never really able to fully tighten the rear bolts down because of the A/C box. Now that it's gone, I'm confident I can get rid of the leaks. Hopefully this helps.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GranTorinoSport Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-August-2014 at 7:33AM
I have heard great things about remflex, and yes I have just recently considered them as the exhaust shop I went to yesterday used remflex for collector gaskets.

My problem I have had is the header bolts loosen up. I don't mind tightening them periodically, but this is getting silly. Is there anything I can do to keep them from loosening? I was thinking high temp thread locker - but what do others do?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aquartlow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-August-2014 at 8:37AM
I use 7/8" "under head" length header bolts with stainless flat washers(I use the washers due to having my headers coated and not wanting the coating to be ground off while torqueing the header bolts) and haven't had any loosening problems. Only the #5 exhaust port bolt nearest the firewall requires the shorter 3/4" length header bolt, due to the sharp bend(my header set anyhow). The only issue I can see using and RTV or other sealants is the "look" it will give if not applied correctly and/or the correct amount. Too much will look "ghetto" or "redneck", even though sealing them is the ultimate reason, I couldn't accept looking at a goopy mess everytime I open the hood. These are the header bolts I use, ARP stainless is a better option.
 
Spectre 46723 - Spectre Header Bolts
 
The main reason I use 7/8" bolts is that the 3/4" header bolts engaged less than 3/8" of the threads in the cylinder head, more engagement equals less likely to strip threads. Stage 8 has a good locking system for header bolt. Good luck, Todd


Edited by aquartlow - 02-August-2014 at 4:01AM
www.supermotors.net/22468
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TV 2M8O Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-August-2014 at 12:21PM

My Crites 460 headers arrived today. I'll post some pics of them tomorrow..... Doesn't Stage 8 offer a locking header bolt??


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-August-2014 at 12:33PM
stage 8 locking header bolts:

Stage 8 8912 Locking Header Bolts - Big Block Chevy/Big Block Ford - Set of 16
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-August-2014 at 2:34PM
Originally posted by aquartlow aquartlow wrote:

The only issue I can see using and RTV or other sealants is the "look" it will give if not applied correctly and/or the correct amount. Too much will look "ghetto" or "redneck", even though sealing them is the ultimate reason, I couldn't accept looking at a goopy mess everytime I open the hood.
 
there are those that should be dis-allowed from; purchasing, possessing, engaging in the practice of, using, applying or dabbling in whatnot & wherefor anything to with semi-viscous putty & gel like substances that cure to an aesthetic permanent condition
 
you know who you are!
 
doesn't make you a bad dude by any means but damn step away from the tube For Pete's Sake 
 
it took me like 16 hours to un-caulk my bathroom & re-caulk it again because my guy, it looked he didn't even wash his hands after doing wallboard & tile repair then smeared dirty caulk all over the walls. Thanks A Censored Lot 
 
A Man Has Got To Know His Limitations ~ Harry Calahan
 


Edited by Rockatansky - 01-August-2014 at 2:36PM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aquartlow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-August-2014 at 3:10PM
Originally posted by Rockatansky Rockatansky wrote:

Originally posted by aquartlow aquartlow wrote:

The only issue I can see using and RTV or other sealants is the "look" it will give if not applied correctly and/or the correct amount. Too much will look "ghetto" or "redneck", even though sealing them is the ultimate reason, I couldn't accept looking at a goopy mess everytime I open the hood.
 
there are those that should be dis-allowed from; purchasing, possessing, engaging in the practice of, using, applying or dabbling in whatnot & wherefor anything to with semi-viscous putty & gel like substances that cure to an aesthetic permanent condition
 
you know who you are!
 
doesn't make you a bad dude by any means but damn step away from the tube For Pete's Sake 
 
it took me like 16 hours to un-caulk my bathroom & re-caulk it again because my guy, it looked he didn't even wash his hands after doing wallboard & tile repair then smeared dirty caulk all over the walls. Thanks A Censored Lot 
 
A Man Has Got To Know His Limitations ~ Harry Calahan
 
Not sure if the above comment was pointed toward myself, but I wouldn't be the one leaving a mess, believe me I take pride in my work(at times too much). I would like to see the end results from anyone using the red or copper high temp sealants for sealing headers to the exhaust ports AFTER snaking them into position and not have the sealant smeared either on the headers, the exhaust ports and/or their hands. Not saying you couldn't wipe it off and/or get good results, I was just suggesting that "good" header gaskets are manufactured for a reason, why not use them.
  
 
www.supermotors.net/22468
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 75GranMan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-August-2014 at 3:15PM
I have a brand new set of stage 8 locking header bolts 3/8" X 1" for sale. PM any interests.
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Tighten it down until it snaps and then back it off a half turn!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TV 2M8O Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-August-2014 at 2:15AM
Originally posted by 75GranMan 75GranMan wrote:

I have a brand new set of stage 8 locking header bolts 3/8" X 1" for sale. PM any interests.
 
PM sent.....

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-August-2014 at 8:15AM
not directed toward anyone in particular
 
even the bestest most expensive gaskets won't last if they're not supported between the squeeze
 
in my case with the 351C-4v exhaust port, it is admittedly a very difficult port to produce a weld bead header flange that'll seal. I really think it should've been a flat flange. if you have any inkling that your gasket will not be completely supported by the squeeze, do an impression with cardboard. just assemble the header to the head with compressable cardboard as a gasket, then remove the cardboard & inspect it on both sides to make sure there are no burn through spots waiting for a new set of gaskets
 
yeah I can imagine that the RTV method can get messy for sure, tight spaces & ooey gooey stuff
 
maybe the 20 min waiting period mentioned has something to do with letting it skin over  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GranTorinoSport Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-August-2014 at 8:26AM
Doesn't Permatex make a spray-on Ultra Copper for high temp gasket applications? Spray and let set before assembly of stuff like metal exhaust gaskets?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-August-2014 at 8:42AM
scott, i was trying to remember the company that makes these gaskets, so i just asked at the local parts store, i've never used their gaskets yet but lots of local people have and said that they work great, no complaints! and they're made here in washington.

   http://catalog.remflex.com/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GranTorinoSport Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-August-2014 at 10:43AM
Has anyone used the stage eight bolt kit on an actual pair of hooker 6126's mounted on a 460 inside a mid size? I ask because they look really cool but those recessed areas that some of the bolts get "pushed" into might make it difficult to install? I could barely get the arp small bolts in there. Also would one inch be too long?

Edited by GranTorinoSport - 02-August-2014 at 10:44AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-August-2014 at 11:06AM
they also show this style too:

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aquartlow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-August-2014 at 11:57AM
Be careful in what gaskets you choose(if you plan on using a header gasket), even using the larger port  header gaskets from Flatout racing only leaves, at best, about 1/8" of gasket in some places to seal the headers to the heads. The 6126 exhaust port's gasket "ring" is larger(mainly taller) than a base 429/460 head (C8VE, C9VE, D0VE-C or D3VE-A2A), please check this yourself to verify the measurements of the gasket against your head's exhaust ports and the 6126's ports. A slightly larger port header gasket is needed, just don't know how much "extra" material is left beyond the stock port on other manufacturer's gaskets. I will try to post pics later to show what I am referring to.  
www.supermotors.net/22468
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dave302 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-August-2014 at 12:28PM
Click Here to see more locking header bolt kits (for the ford 460-521 engines) for sale, including the ford racing brand (and summit racing brand) locking header bolt kits.

Edited by dave302 - 03-August-2014 at 4:26AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dave302 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-August-2014 at 1:28PM
ARP also makes header bolts that are pre-drilled for safety wire to run through all the bolt heads, to stop them from loosening up. But unfortunately these ARP drilled header bolts are only available in two lengths which are: 0.750" UHL (under head length) and 0.875" UHL (under head length). I do not know if they will be long enough for your application.
 
Click Here to see the size 0.875" header bolts for sale.
 
Click Here to see the size 0.750" header bolts for sale.
 
Click here to see the ARP size 0.875" UHL header bolts for sale from a different seller, This seller is advertising them as stainless steel.


Edited by dave302 - 05-August-2014 at 7:00AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-August-2014 at 6:46PM
Originally posted by aquartlow aquartlow wrote:

Be careful in what gaskets you choose(if you plan on using a header gasket), even using the larger port  header gaskets from Flatout racing only leaves, at best, about 1/8" of gasket in some places to seal the headers to the heads. The 6126 exhaust port's gasket "ring" is larger(mainly taller) than a base 429/460 head (C8VE, C9VE, D0VE-C or D3VE-A2A), please check this yourself to verify the measurements of the gasket against your head's exhaust ports and the 6126's ports. A slightly larger port header gasket is needed, just don't know how much "extra" material is left beyond the stock port on other manufacturer's gaskets. I will try to post pics later to show what I am referring to.  
 
^^ this
 
I also found that various makers gaskets have different size port openings, some seem to be designed for flat flanges
(only explanation I could come up with) as the port opening skirts in & out of the weld bead perimeter.
they'll leak the first time you fire it up & burn out worse from there
 
bottom line is that I don't recall ever finding a PN packaged gasket that would seal my 351C-4V supercomps, not even a 351C-2V gasket could be modified because the outside perimeter is so different that it causes a leak. I even thought about stacking gaskets trimmed to envelope the weld beads but never did get to it, I ended up temporarily swapping on 2V heads so I made sandwich plates to adapt the 4V headers to the 2V X ports. basically just a 16g plate with 4V outside perimeter & 2V port holes 
 
can a std BBF gasket be opened up to your port or header bead / whichever is smaller & still seal around the outside?


Edited by Rockatansky - 02-August-2014 at 6:56PM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aquartlow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-August-2014 at 1:55AM
Originally posted by Rockatansky Rockatansky wrote:

Originally posted by aquartlow aquartlow wrote:

Be careful in what gaskets you choose(if you plan on using a header gasket), even using the larger port  header gaskets from Flatout racing only leaves, at best, about 1/8" of gasket in some places to seal the headers to the heads. The 6126 exhaust port's gasket "ring" is larger(mainly taller) than a base 429/460 head (C8VE, C9VE, D0VE-C or D3VE-A2A), please check this yourself to verify the measurements of the gasket against your head's exhaust ports and the 6126's ports. A slightly larger port header gasket is needed, just don't know how much "extra" material is left beyond the stock port on other manufacturer's gaskets. I will try to post pics later to show what I am referring to.  
 
^^ this
 
I also found that various makers gaskets have different size port openings, some seem to be designed for flat flanges
(only explanation I could come up with) as the port opening skirts in & out of the weld bead perimeter.
they'll leak the first time you fire it up & burn out worse from there
 
bottom line is that I don't recall ever finding a PN packaged gasket that would seal my 351C-4V supercomps, not even a 351C-2V gasket could be modified because the outside perimeter is so different that it causes a leak. I even thought about stacking gaskets trimmed to envelope the weld beads but never did get to it, I ended up temporarily swapping on 2V heads so I made sandwich plates to adapt the 4V headers to the 2V X ports. basically just a 16g plate with 4V outside perimeter & 2V port holes 
 
can a std BBF gasket be opened up to your port or header bead / whichever is smaller & still seal around the outside?
 
I do remember the huge ports, intake and exhaust, on my fathers '71 351 CJ engine we installed into his '73 Mach1.
  Not sure if there are gaskets that have enough material to seal the factory port and seal the Hooker's weld bead correctly(other than the Flatout racing #7021, not saying these are the only ones either). The weld bead design actually helps with sealing each header tube to it's respected exhaust port, but the condition that Hooker leaves this weld bead leaves much to be desired. If Hooker could leave a sealing bead that was an honest 3/16" wide all they way around and flat, I believe the leaks would be reduced if not totally eliminated. As much as the 6126's cost, I don't think this isn't too much to ask for. I still to this day don't understand the differences in the 6126's actual port size as compared a stock D2VE or D3VE-A2A exhaust port, that these headers were designed to fit('72-'75 Torino, Ranchero, Montego and etc. with 460-C6). Here some pics of the exhaust gaskets and how wide the weld bead contacts the stock 460 port size.
 
This shows the gasket contacts all of the head's exhaust port, with a little extra.
This pic shows a marker outlining the outside of the 460 exhaust port, even with the larger sized port openings these gaskets have, they still need a little more margin width at the top of the port for better header sealing. 
Scary huh! They never leaked after about 5K miles, but I still don't like it.
 
www.supermotors.net/22468
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dave302 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-August-2014 at 5:40AM
Originally posted by GranTorinoSport GranTorinoSport wrote:

My problem I have had is the header bolts loosen up. I was thinking high temp thread locker - but what do others do?
 
Here is a lower cost alternative idea: but you will probably have to heat the header bolts up to a temperature between 500 to 550 degrees with a propane torch to loosen them up, if you have to remove them.
 
I do not know if this is a product that the ford motor company recommends for their exhaust manifold bolts. But this product is within the specificatations of General Motors Part Number: 12345493, which is the same threadlocker that General Motors recommends (in their service manual), to be used on the exhaust manifold bolts of the 1997 through 2006 Chevrolet C5 Corvettes.
 
General Motors might even recommend it for use on other years of the Corvette and other General Motors vehicles also. The part number for this threadlocker is 24026.
 
 
 
 


Edited by dave302 - 05-August-2014 at 7:06AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GranTorinoSport Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-August-2014 at 5:45AM
The stage 8 header bolts and the remflex gaskets look like a possible alternative to try. I will have to look closer at my headers to see if either the style with the long pieces or the shorter ones John found would work. Seems reasonable, though. The ARP locking header bolts also have some potential in my opinion (I learned how to safety wire in the Air Force, so while access is tough it could be done).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aquartlow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-August-2014 at 6:17AM
Originally posted by dave302 dave302 wrote:

Originally posted by GranTorinoSport GranTorinoSport wrote:

My problem I have had is the header bolts loosen up. I was thinking high temp thread locker - but what do others do?
 
Here is a lower cost alternative idea: but you will probably have to heat the header bolts up to a temperature between 300 to 500 degrees with a propane torch to loosen them up, if you have to remove them.
 
I do not know if this is a product that the ford motor company recommends for their exhaust manifold bolts. But this product is within the specificatations of General Motors Part Number: 12345493, which is the same threadlocker that General Motors recommends (in their service manual), to be used on the exhaust manifold bolts of the 2000 A4 Chevrolet Corvette.
 
They might even recommend it for use on other years of the Corvette and other General Motors vehicles also. The part number for this threadlocker is 24026.
 
 
 
 
Permatex makes a great thread locker, just hate to even think about having to use a propane torch to loosen the rear bolts on the #4 & #8 exhaust ports. I don't know how this product will hold up to the concentrated heat at the exhaust port, using a heat gun I get readings of 400-450 degrees @ idle and about 650-700 degrees @ 1700 or so rpm. I do know the 550 degree VHT engine paint I use will burn off the top of the exhaust ports within a week or so. This is another option to keep the bolts tight, just not sure of the quality:
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mmZg-pLdds&feature=player_embedded
www.supermotors.net/22468
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-August-2014 at 6:41AM
i'm not sure the locktight will be that effective on the headers due to the fact that they generate about the same heat required to remove the locktighted bolts! great product! comes in blue (removeable with a wrench) red (heat to remove) green (supposed to be higher strength-- i've never found that to be any different than the red*) but if the stage 8 bolts won't work, yeah safety wiring them should do the trick! (just have to cross drill all the bolt heads) i don't recall ever seeing any header bolts drilled for safety wire


Edited by californiajohnny - 03-August-2014 at 6:42AM
JOHN
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77 CELICA CUSTOM
75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED
79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED
75 VEGA V6 5 SPD
70 CHEV C10 P/U
68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION
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