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HELP! Distributior and Setup for my 351C-4V

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    Posted: 24-January-2020 at 6:42AM

Hello,

I've bought a GTS 1972 with a 351C-2V engine in Riverside. After 2 Years I got an engine damage.
So I decided to buy a 351C-4V (short chamber, 1970) here in Germany. Its from a pantera with flat top piston HP555 0.20.
I installed a LUNATI CAM, a BLUE THUNDER and an Edelbrock Carburator (1405). Now my old HEI was to big. I bought an new distibutor in germany but it was trash - first the cable power was to low, if I make more than idle speed the engine goes off. Then I made a relais to bring more power to the distributor - it works but I'm not able to setup the engine it good. I've tried much settings for idle, 6btw, 8, 10, 12, 16...but always I come over 45 if speed is over 3000 or idle is to low and no power - this is too high and the engine does not hang well on the gas. The Distributor is bad, so I need a new one.
Second Problem, if the engine is hot and I turn it off, it is dieseling/turn false direction - I think the Problem is wrong time setting and bad distributor.

I'm looking for a good distributor and coil for this engine that fits and have enough to make a good setup.

Also I need some experience from people who have such an engine or can help me to find the 300HP or more. Should I Change jets from carburator?

My english is not very well, so try to write for a Baby

 
Best wished from Germany André
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-January-2020 at 9:00AM
It sounds like you are getting way too much mechanical advance in your distributor. If you want to replace your distributor I would recommend looking at this one here:


I have one of these as with a coil from a 1995 Mustang 5.0L engine. It works great. I have about 16 degrees initial with 36 total all in before 3000.  If you do decided to run this setup, I can send you a copy of my wiring diagram. 

If you want to build a cheaper system, you can use a GM HEI igntion module, a Ford Dura Spark distributor and the above coil.  Look at this thread below and it has all kinds of details on that ignition and other options.



Edited by 72FordGTS - 24-January-2020 at 11:28AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-January-2020 at 10:58AM
will the tim meyer dist. clear his blue thunder intake??? i think he told me that an HEI wouldn't assuming it was a GM HEI dist?
 sounds like too much advance to me too
but rock would know best Wink that's why i had him join hereWink
JOHN
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-January-2020 at 11:08AM
looks like he's running mechanical advance only (no vacuum advance) and it's too much... if the idle is too high and static advance is way off this would cause the "dieseling" i'm sure
 maybe see if his cam specs are good and not adding to the undrivability issues?? but looks fair to me but i'm not a cleveland expert

 rockatansky would know Wink
JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE
74 VETTE CUSTOM
90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED
77 CELICA CUSTOM
75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED
79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED
75 VEGA V6 5 SPD
70 CHEV C10 P/U
68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-January-2020 at 11:19AM
6er have the heads been set up specifically for the Lunati cam?

.536/.562 lift will require valve springs and retainers compatible for extra valve lift over stock

do you have a vacuum gauge, how much Hg does the engine pull from the intake manifold at idle?

here's the Lunati page for your cam,

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-January-2020 at 1:01PM
yeah if you know what dist. will fit with that monster intake, he's needing to know so he can order one
JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE
74 VETTE CUSTOM
90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED
77 CELICA CUSTOM
75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 6er Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-January-2020 at 8:25PM

Good morning,

in the 351-2V was a comp cam kit (K32-221-3). From this kit and other parts from the engine there are the springs (outer) and the crane rocker arm conversion kit. Also the rocker arms (1.72 - Summit Racing® Cast Steel Roller Tip Rocker Arms SUM-141709PL). I ask the dealer where I ordered the LUNATI CAM If I can use this parts or need new. He told me it is good and I will not feel the difference between 1.72 and 1.73, so I put all in the engine.


Vaccum is less, pic show at 800 idle.


The Distributor must have same size as original. For the break-in I must cut my HEI to fit itCry
 
Should I change any parts?
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 6er Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-January-2020 at 8:27PM
I only run mechanical advance, vacuum advance is not possible, ist too much at 3000
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-January-2020 at 10:23PM
i'll check in the morning i think i have a small cap dura spark dist. from a 74 351C 2V if you wanted to wire the GM 4 pin module like in the diagram with a separate coil?
JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE
74 VETTE CUSTOM
90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED
77 CELICA CUSTOM
75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED
79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED
75 VEGA V6 5 SPD
70 CHEV C10 P/U
68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-January-2020 at 6:17AM
i one of my fears is that the new coil i see in the pics is not compatible and is issues. a wrong type of coil will idle but not rpm. 6er do you have an old stock Ford coil to try?

so you need a dizzy, the Ready To Run unit from Tim Meyer solves a lot of install issues and finishes very neatly with no visible wiring. it can be used with either a stock Ford small cap or the 2 piece Duraspark adapter and large diameter cap. i thing the adapter will raise the cap up high enough to clear the BlueThunder but i'm not positive. George Pence would know for sure or someone that has tried / is using the combination. personally i'd use the small cap for the stock period correct look and air filter housing clearance.

other options are

> a small diameter MSD (Many Suddenly Die)

> a small diameter Pertronix distributor
 
> the stock housing with a Pertronix module installed

> retro fit a Duraspark but be aware the 1972 wiring harness is set up for points, not the 2 wire supply feed that the Duraspark box uses

> Mallory Unilite, HyFire box and Mallory coil, one of my favorites but the new dizzy's come mechanical adv only

> Mallory 502M Unilite conversion kit in a stock points housing

> stock Duraspark and an I.C.E. ignition control box  www.iceignition.com ;

> stock Duraspark and a Pantera Electronics control box https://www.pantera-electronics.com/eis.htm

regarding the Hg at idle, it shows about 9.5 and is the needle steady or bouncing like a bunny rabbit?

regarding the cam lift and the heads being set up properly, my worry is not the rockers and hardware but the springs and retainers being able to allow the added lift over stock that the Lunati cam brings. you can't just slide a performance cam in and magic happens, the springs need to be checked for bind clearance at max lift or there will be trouble. i looked up the previous Comp cam that cam in the 4V, it's a 268H, this cam CAN slide in with no special parts or checking so there's no indication that anything has been done to the original stock heads to provide for additional lift over stock. was the Comp 268H cam bad, why was it removed? i would've left the 4V engine in as-is running condition so as not to compile a laundry list of what-if's. then after the engine is running as it should, then start doing changes.

i'm not understanding why the vacuum advance would be adding too much timing unless the connection is being made to Direct Intake Vacuum? there is a way to use DIV (and it works better than ported or timed vacuum) but the vacuum pot has to be adjustable and set up properly to work off DIV. no distributors come set up for DIV and will over advance insanely. there is no issue with starting out using only mechanical advance to simplify the process, maybe sometime later the vacuum system can be figured out and implemented.







Edited by Rockatansky - 25-January-2020 at 1:17PM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-January-2020 at 6:36AM
I talked to Tim Meyer about the RTR distributor when I was getting mine.  He said the module will not fit in the cap with the small diameter cap.  So the large cap is required for the RTR distibutor.  It is still considerably smaller than a GM HEI, with a same size base as a stock distributor, just a larger cap.  If you contact TMeyer Inc, they may know if the RTR Track Boss distributor will clear the Blue Thunder intake.

Todd, Aquartlow, built an excellent Duraspark distributor with a external GM HEI module.  It is really pretty much the same as a RTR distributor, except the HEI module is mounted outside the cap.  All the details on that build are in the thread I posted above.  With this setup you could use the smaller Duraspark cap if clearance is an issue.  

Here are some pics and wiring diagrams on a home built Dura Spark with HEI module:






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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 6er Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-January-2020 at 9:20AM
@californiajonny
If it works fine for my engine, why not?
 
@Rockatansky
I think I've a old coil to test it.
The vacuum is steady, it will be little more if more engine speed. I can test it again if you need some more Infos - tell me what rpms?!
 
The cam was from my 2V and don't work for 4V told me comp cam.
What parts should I buy to make the Hardware correct.
The cam was installed because the engine was incomplete as I bought it. Cam, water pump and rest of the front were missing. And the cam dealer told me I should install also a performance intake If I use this cam. First I want to order an edelbrock in USA but ist too heavy and too expensive, around 600euro. I've searched 1/2 year in Germany, then I found the blue thunder and bought it because many wrote good coments about it. 
 
The Distributor is trash, at the hei I could adjust the vaccum with a little allen wrench, but at this Distributor nothing changes if I use an allen wrench.
 
So what should we do first?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-January-2020 at 10:00AM
i'm wondering if the cam is causing the low vacuum? is it degreed at 0 TDC? retarding or advancing the cam timing at the chain can affect things. just a thought! i'm thinking you have a mis-match of parts going on there?
 that dist. i have dint have spark in that engine but the module on the fender was nasty corroded so i suspected it was bad i pulled the dist from the motor a few months ago and dropped in the messed up points one from the 4v with a screw to hold the breaker plate enough to fire the engine as a test so idk if its good i think the electronic dist is, just the module was bad which is common
 but if the TMEYER dist will work it should fit with the cap-a-dapt cap like todd's i'd think since it widens above the intake unlike the GM HEI which is wide at the base...



 IDK what do you guys think on all this?
JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE
74 VETTE CUSTOM
90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED
77 CELICA CUSTOM
75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED
79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED
75 VEGA V6 5 SPD
70 CHEV C10 P/U
68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-January-2020 at 4:34PM
Yes absolutely that Lunati cam has no love for vacuum, i wish they gave the seat to seat overlap

"Hydraulic Flat Tappet. Good cam for improved mid range torque and HP over stock.
Needs 2000-2500 RPM stall converter, headers, 9:1+ compression ratio and 3.73 gearing. Fair idle.
Advertised Duration: 290/300 ; Duration @ .050 (Int/Exh): 224/234
Gross Valve Lift (Int/Exh): .536/.562 LSA/ICL: 112  RPM Range: 2000-6000

notice the Lobe Separation Angle and the Intake Center Line are the same at 112*, there is no advance ground into the cam, this cam has true 'straight up' timing. if it doesn't get degreed to spec, and possibly installed retarded, low end response, efficiency and vacuum will suffer more. it can be installed advanced with properly checking for piston to valve clearance, there 99% won't be any issue but if it doesn't get checked and things go bad there will be no joy in Mudville


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 6er Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-January-2020 at 7:13PM
Hello,
OK I understand. But I think we could it test it in the current situation. Please tell what Hardware (springs and...) I should buy and install that the Hardware is correct for the cam.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-January-2020 at 11:02AM
the thing is what you have there needs to be checked and evaluated for compatibility. your engine was born at least 45 years ago, anything may have been done in that time. if the spring seats have been cut for dual springs that needs to be identified before selecting a spring, and the retainers are specific to the spring OD and ID also. retainer locks are specific to the valve stem diameter, retainer lock angle and groove type. way too much to guess from this side of the planet!

there's a ~possibility~ that your springs are OK but my $2 are against it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-January-2020 at 11:08AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 6er Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-February-2020 at 8:46PM
Good morning,
 
I'm still having trouble finding a distributor. I have now measured my place and need information from users with details of their distribution whether the masses fit. Unfortunately I cannot find this data on the Internet.

If the distributor has a maximum diameter of 100mm, the height between the clamp and the lower edge is irrelevant. If it is larger in diameter, the distance must be at least 130mm as in the picture.

Which distributor is this Dimension?
 
Only one I can found with Details is one from summit racing:
 
 
6er
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Bird Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-February-2020 at 2:49AM
Look for a factory duraspark distributor for 351M/400 engines.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-February-2020 at 6:05AM
Originally posted by Big Bird Big Bird wrote:

Look for a factory duraspark distributor for 351M/400 engines.

what about a  small cap duraspark from a 74 351 2v cleveland? i have one...
JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE
74 VETTE CUSTOM
90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED
77 CELICA CUSTOM
75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED
79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED
75 VEGA V6 5 SPD
70 CHEV C10 P/U
68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-February-2020 at 6:07AM
 oh BTW your seat belt cover arrived the other day Wink
JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE
74 VETTE CUSTOM
90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED
77 CELICA CUSTOM
75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED
79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED
75 VEGA V6 5 SPD
70 CHEV C10 P/U
68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-February-2020 at 6:17AM
Originally posted by Big Bird Big Bird wrote:

Look for a factory duraspark distributor for 351M/400 engines.


Yes, this is the easiest solution. These distributors are the same size as the points distributors, only the cap is larger.  You can get John's used but here are lots available here new:


If you get a Duraspark distributor and the large cap doesn't fit, just switch to the small cap and you're done!

Then get a GM HEI module and wire it up like I posted above.  Simple, easy cheap ignition with all easy to find parts.  



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-February-2020 at 9:50AM
any Duraspark housing can use the small cap

there is also a male terminal small cap to use HEI style leads,
only issue i've heard is the clip pockets can be a little tight

Standard Motor Products AL482


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 6er Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-February-2020 at 8:20AM

Can I adjust vaccum at the duraspark?

 
@John do you have with male terminal?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-February-2020 at 10:08AM
i'd have to look?  i just swapped distributors to fire it up the caps interchanged
JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE
74 VETTE CUSTOM
90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED
77 CELICA CUSTOM
75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED
79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED
75 VEGA V6 5 SPD
70 CHEV C10 P/U
68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-February-2020 at 10:19AM
Yes, their is vacuum advance on a duraspark distributor and the vaccum cannister is adjustable.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-February-2020 at 10:24AM
the factory electronic one i have is just under 4" (100mm)dia its nice and tight so i think it was replaced at some time and it has a 12127 motorcraft number cast on it it came out of the 351C 2v it had the older style terminal cap but you can get the small male terminal cap hei that fits like rock posted i'll send you pics on messenger...
JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE
74 VETTE CUSTOM
90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED
77 CELICA CUSTOM
75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED
79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED
75 VEGA V6 5 SPD
70 CHEV C10 P/U
68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-February-2020 at 5:02PM
the factory vacuum profile in any Duraspark unit should work as-is if connected to the correct vacuum source

direct manifold vacuum from below the throttle blades would not be correct,

'timed spark' or ported vacuum is where you want to connect
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-February-2020 at 4:54AM
Originally posted by Rockatansky Rockatansky wrote:

the factory vacuum profile in any Duraspark unit should work as-is if connected to the correct vacuum source

direct manifold vacuum from below the throttle blades would not be correct,

'timed spark' or ported vacuum is where you want to connect
yes, this!!! IDK how many i've seen hooked to direct vacuum Confused fords especially, once switched to ported vacuum and retuned a bit, they run so much betterThumbs Up
JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE
74 VETTE CUSTOM
90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED
77 CELICA CUSTOM
75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED
79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED
75 VEGA V6 5 SPD
70 CHEV C10 P/U
68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION
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