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ID this noise???

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TV 2M8O View Drop Down
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    Posted: 28-May-2017 at 9:21AM
Can anyone tell me what might be making this noise? Seems worse on TDC center side of crank than at 180 degrees opposite.... and quite between???
 


Edited by TV 2M8O - 28-May-2017 at 9:34AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-May-2017 at 10:32AM
is this a hand rotation of the chirping noise? i'm still thinking hairline crack somewhere in the flexplate??? sounds like a slot machine in this vid Wink when you pull the handle
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stanman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-May-2017 at 10:34AM
Is it coming from the bell housing or the oil pan? I transferred the original 351CJ "windage tray" from the original oil pan into a replacement one years ago and it was a tad too high. Every time the crank came around it touched it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aquartlow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-May-2017 at 10:51AM
I would pull the starter just to be sure that wasn't "it", but if it was "it" the flex plate would have to be warped a bit. Did you use the factory torque ring that goes onto the flex plate before the bolts? If you have a multi-position magnetic base and a 1" travel dial indicator, you can find out quickly if there is a lot of flex plate run-out. Could it possibly be the spacer plate between the block and transmission case? Good luck.  
www.supermotors.net/22468
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-May-2017 at 1:18PM
it seems to turn easily, did the converter sit between the flex & trans loose before tightening the stud nuts?
 
and it also seems like the ratcheting sound would indicate that the ring gear is scraping something, but what? the only thing that should be close enough to contact the ring gear would b the starter drive gear ... there are at least 3 different offsets for the starter gear, is it possible that you got a starter that sits the drive gear that close to the ring gear instead of slightly farther away?
 
1st thing i'd do is pull the starter back & turn it again too
 
2nd maybe get a Harbor Freight boroscope & have a look see up in there
 
there's 2 different size nozzle ends ... that's all I'm sayin


Edited by Rockatansky - 28-May-2017 at 1:21PM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TV 2M8O Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-June-2017 at 5:14AM
OK all, pulled the transmission back from the engine and removed the flexplate and engine separator looking for signs rubbing/interference and found nothing! With the engine loose from the transmision, I'd like to fire it up independently from the transmission but I don't have a junk C6 to cut off the bellhousing flange. I know I can buy a full bellhousing, but does anyone make/sell just the flange area (a mini bell or basically a starter mounting ring? so I  can remount the separator plate, flexplate and starter and start the engine just resting in place?

Also is there an oil pressure gauge made that will screw into the oil sender port so I can verify I'm getting full oil pressure?

As always you input and suggestions are greatly appreciated!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-June-2017 at 6:10AM
does your starter fit correctly into the register hole of the block plate?
 
there are 2 different diameter register ring diameters and the small starter diameter can fit into the large block plate leaving the slop in the mount bolts to locate the starter to the ring gear ...
 
the sound was very faint, whatever it is it's barely making contact
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aquartlow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-June-2017 at 10:21AM
What about the torque converter's pilot size(where it indexes inside the end of the crankshaft)? Could you have a later TC that uses a 1.375 stepped pilot whereas the earlier 429/460 cranks used the FE style of pilot size @ 1.85". If the later TC is used with a early crank, you need either a bushing that installs into the crankshaft end(similar to a pilot bushing for a manual input shaft) and keeps the TC centered or an earlier TC with the 1.85" pilot. Do not rely on the flex plate to do the "centering".   
www.supermotors.net/22468
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TV 2M8O Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-June-2017 at 12:48PM
Todd,

My transmission guy had me to measure the crank pilot hole prior to him ordering the new torque converter....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aquartlow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-June-2017 at 1:32PM
Originally posted by TV 2M8O TV 2M8O wrote:

Todd,

My transmission guy had me to measure the crank pilot hole prior to him ordering the new torque converter....
 
Joe,
 10-4, just trying to give options, not seeing all or any of the components has me flying blind. Just double check the converter's pilot, not trying to second guess anyone their work and/or experience, just want to help if possible. Hope you get it figured out.
 
Update: I always heard/thought that there were just 2 converter pilot sizes for a 429/460 1.85" & 1.375", but there is evidence that there is one other @ 1.25" . TCI manufactures/sells one here:
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/tci-441612/overview/ . The pics I have seen in your build thread looks to have the 1.375" crank pilot, but not 100% sure.


Edited by aquartlow - 04-June-2017 at 1:51PM
www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires.

No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t.

Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aquartlow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-June-2017 at 1:03AM
Joe,
 Have you found the source of the noise? Pics that you posted in your build thread looks to show no obvious culprit.
www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires.

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Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TV 2M8O Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-June-2017 at 1:44PM
Todd,

Another member mentioned using the separator plate as the mounting plate for the starter, but since I'm using a high torque starter, I'm a bit skeptical if the single plate (about an 1/8" thick steel) is rigid enough to support the forces it will see when I hit the starter, so a friend is sending a separator plate back that I sent him a year or so ago so I can double them up and then mount the starter and give it a whirl!

We did check the oil pressure today and, spinning it with the primer tool, it registered about 80psi so everything inside the engine should be getting oiled properly.

Hope to find the answer next Saturday.......
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aquartlow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-June-2017 at 3:31PM
Since you already separated the trans from the engine, is there any noise when turning over the engine by hand(err....harmonic balancer bolt, plugs removed of course)? I didn't fully read through all the build thread, I apologize, but when it was running did you place trans in gear-Forward and Reverse?
Joe, Thank you for your reply, hope you get to the source of the problem quickly.
www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires.

No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t.

Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-June-2017 at 5:14AM
Joe, do you have a friendly trans builder guy that can inspect the front pump?
 
don't take anything for granted that you got supplied what you think you did, measure / physically verify everything & anything you can think of. have you held / fit the converter to the flex & crank and checked for slop in the pilot? the converter should turn slightly in the stud holes as if rotating but no up/down side/side movement. not too many peeps actually do a converter mock fit to the engine before sliding the converter into the trans for mate-up 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aquartlow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-June-2017 at 5:40AM
Originally posted by Rockatansky Rockatansky wrote:

Joe, do you have a friendly trans builder guy that can inspect the front pump?
 
don't take anything for granted that you got supplied what you think you did, measure / physically verify everything & anything you can think of. have you held / fit the converter to the flex & crank and checked for slop in the pilot? the converter should turn slightly in the stud holes as if rotating but no up/down side/side movement. not too many peeps actually do a converter mock fit to the engine before sliding the converter into the trans for mate-up 
 
X2. Good call Rock! This ^^ is basically what I was "getting at".
   I had an issue years ago where I installed a salvage yard engine in my '75 Cougar that came out of a truck, unbeknownst to us the crank still had the pilot bushing due to the truck having a manual behind it. At 18 years old, I tried(or rather we tried) to install it, not figuring on the pilot bushing issue, long story short I fubar'd the front pump on that C4. I realize not the same situation, but if the TC wasn't fully seated, the front pump/gears will not be happy. Once again, hope you get it figured out
www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires.

No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t.

Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-June-2017 at 5:45AM
it'd be a shame to put it all back together and find out the noise is in the trans pump
 
but it did run w/o leaking? IDK.... it's apart now ....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TV 2M8O Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-July-2017 at 7:14AM
OK guys.... sorry for leaving everyone hanging. The problem was that the mini high torque starter snout was just a bit too long and the teeth were ever so slightly kissing the flywheel. Added a couple shim washers to confirm that was the problem and once everything bolted back together, the chirp was gone!

I have a full diameter starter spacer on order so I can ditch the washers and button everything up for good once it arrives.

Thanks to all for their help and suggestions!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Don V. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-July-2017 at 5:45AM
Is your starter from Summit? Their mini is known for overheating and the bendix sticking and not retracting all the way.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TV 2M8O Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-July-2017 at 6:26AM
Nope, don't remember who the manufacturer was. Have to do a bit of diggin'...
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