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INFO: Adjustable strut rod - the holy grail

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BackInBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-September-2015 at 1:51AM
Im trying to get details on the design.  I was lead to believe it was a heim bearing with a new rod like the Global West rod for hte 71 Torino.   I'm waiting to hear back on the design and will post as soon as i get it.   

We have 4 so far committed, need 4 more.


Edited by BackInBlack - 09-September-2015 at 9:20AM
-John
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cggrob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-September-2015 at 9:31AM
I have the TCP set up on my 1970 Mustang like the attached pic.  Works very well and is really a custom machined bushing with 6 degrees of freedom.  Bearing material in side this is a very hard plastic like DELRIN.  Not something I could reproduce at home very easily, but it maintains all of the stock geometry and suspension layout.  It is harsher on bumps - you can really feel it. 
Since I actually had one of these in hand I was able to compare before making my set-up, and for this reason decided that this could not be adapted.  As compared to my 1972 Torino:
 
1. Angle of the rod to the mounting point on the lower A-arm is different.
2. Bolt size and spacing on the LCA is different
3. Arm diameter is 5/8"  - Torino is 3/4"
4. Length is shorter
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cggrob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-September-2015 at 9:37AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BackInBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-September-2015 at 9:55AM
I had called TCP also about supporting these class Fords...They said nope, not enough demand.

If we can just get 3-4 more people to sign-up.  Then we have some descent parts available.

I was thinking the same thing...I looked at the Mustang market to see how they are solving the problem.  This was the least invasive way to do it.  

-John
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Billy C Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-September-2015 at 12:49PM
Originally posted by BackInBlack BackInBlack wrote:

Translation...
You believe the rubber bushings absorb much of the shock if the wheel gets hit hard.  When you go to the hard mount strut rod your concerned that the rod itself may be a failure item because its not designed to take that shock at the threaded end near the bushing? 

I'm worried about the rod being loaded more and the bearing being loaded in a direction it wasn't fully designed for.  It's just a scary place to be messing around. If that rod where to fail it would only be during a time when the result would be catastrophic.

FMEA is a hot topic in engineering which means Failure Modes and Effects Analysis. This is how different failure types are scaled. It ultimately boils down to this. If the failure mode of a component could be potentially catastrophic to the assembly or system it is scaled higher and quality control and safety factors are higher. If a component just fails and leaves the system in a slightly less functioning state until a repair can be made, quality control and safety factors can be scaled back to save weight and cost.  It usually involves teams of engineers, charts, data, equations, and all that other stuff to analyze complex systems.

I always try to think where the part I am redesigning would fall on a FMEA chart. I've kind of adopted a back yard FMEA in asking "How sure do I want to be of the loads and conditions so I know my safety factors are correct?" or "How much should I just beef it up to be safe if all that stuff is too complex?" Of course that is always scaled against "would it kill someone if it failed the way I predict it would?"

I do believe a solution for a better radius rod is one of the top things in a list of suspension improvements that would be easy for our cars. The problem is it's also a good way to f**k s**t up if it's done wrong. With that being said, a design that everyone agrees on pursuing as well as an amount people would be willing to pay would be a good start.


Edited by Billy C - 05-September-2015 at 1:01PM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BackInBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-September-2015 at 1:00PM
Originally posted by Billy C Billy C wrote:

Originally posted by BackInBlack BackInBlack wrote:

Translation...
You believe the rubber bushings absorb much of the shock if the wheel gets hit hard.  When you go to the hard mount strut rod your concerned that the rod itself may be a failure item because its not designed to take that shock at the threaded end near the bushing? 

I'm worried about the rod being loaded more and the bearing being loaded in a direction it wasn't fully designed for.  It's just a scary place to be messing around. If that rod where to fail it would only be during a time when the result would be catastrophic.

FMEA is a hot topic in engineering which means Failure Modes and Effects Analysis. This is how different failure types are scaled. It ultimately boils down to this. If the failure mode of a component could be potentially catastrophic to the assembly or system it is scaled higher and quality control and safety factors are higher. If a component just fails and leaves the system in a slightly less functioning state until a repair can be made, quality control and safety factors can be scaled back to save weight and cost.  It usually involves teams of engineers, charts, data, equations, and all that other stuff to analyse complex systems.

I always try to think where the part I am redesigning would fall on a FMEA chart. I've kind of adopted a back yard FMEA in asking "How sure do I want to be of the loads and conditions so I know my safety factors are correct?" or "How much should I just beef it up to be safe if all that stuff is too complex?" Of course that is always scaled against "would it kill someone if it failed the way I predict it would?"

I do believe a solution for a better radius rod is one of the top things in a list of suspension improvements that would be easy for our cars. The problem is it's also a good way to f**k s**t up if it's done wrong. With that being said, a design that everyone agrees on pursuing as well as an amount people would be willing to pay would be a good start.

Amen brother!   I design high reliability electronics and write those god awful FMEAs.  Thats why its really important to get enough people in on buying the strut rod in a group buy.  They will build a solid unit if the A-arm is any indication and it will be a safer piece even over a 40year old NOS part.
-John
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psquare75 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-September-2015 at 3:40PM
Hope this works out for you guys! I put it on the FB page. 
Paul
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lynchster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-September-2015 at 3:07PM
Originally posted by Big Bird Big Bird wrote:

I just wonder where these designs will move the "Fail-point" to.

We were just having this debate in the garage today.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lynchster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-September-2015 at 3:12PM
Originally posted by BackInBlack BackInBlack wrote:

We have 4 so far committed, need 4 more.
I'd be interested in seeing the design I'd be committing to.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BackInBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-September-2015 at 7:33AM
Originally posted by mlachance112785 mlachance112785 wrote:

Any idea on price?
 
Update:
Spoke with Eric at the shop today.  He is willing to work with us to control the price.  He hasn't finished looking at all the options.  
 
Option#1:  Provide the clevis end and parts but leave the cutting threading the rod to the user. (heim rod end)
Option #2:  Global West equivalent (heim rod end)  Full bolt on replacement.
Option #3:  RRS equivalent where there is just a spherical bearing (hope I'm using the correct term) to replace the bushing and reuses the OEM strut rod.
 
The leaning is toward option#2 like the one offered for the 71 Torino by Global West.  He said that he expected to do a Global west equivalent for the same price, $400 at these low quantities.  Nothing decided...just the results from the conversation.
 
I'll keep you posted.  
 
More reference info.  Check the photo on this link
 


Edited by BackInBlack - 09-September-2015 at 9:40AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BackInBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-September-2015 at 9:13AM
Anyone thought of doing this???
 
This one seems like it doesn't seem like a good option.  It puts the load on the bolt and not on the flat flange surface.
 
Or this??
 
Was wondering if something investigated these options and decided it wasn't worth it?


Edited by BackInBlack - 10-September-2015 at 9:30AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Bird Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-September-2015 at 11:34AM
Actually, I've been communicating with Ridetech about the strut rods, The concern they had with heim joints at the front was that it would move the pivot point back and change the front end geometry.
I personally think it wouldn't matter much compared to the factory marshmallow bushings that give you an inconsistent pivot point, and it would be a solid anchor without flex in braking/cornering.
Ridetech makes a LCA with the strut rod integrated and adjustable for the 68-71 Torino and the 67-73 Mustang, so maybe... just maybe they could be of help.
Additionally, Strut rods with a heim joint are used in some classes of racing, and all the parts (Heim joints, tubular struts, and threaded end sections that bolt to the LCA) are available through Speedway.


Edited by Big Bird - 10-September-2015 at 11:39AM
The above post should be read in a "Grumpy Old Man" voice.
Almost forgot: "Get off my lawn!!!"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BackInBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-September-2015 at 1:46PM
I've checked speedway and other places like Howe Racing.  I've been looking at what the circle track and dirt track guys are doing.   I think the spherical bearing idea puts the pivot point nearly exactly at the bushing point.   I simply dont see any off-the-shelf suppliers doing it that way.  That makes me wonder if there is a design flaw that I'm not thinking of with that setup.   I see way more heim setups and replacement parts like that seen from Global West.  

I'm probably over analyzing it.  Just get-r-dun.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Bird Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-September-2015 at 2:37PM
Honestly, the heim joints are used in 4-links for off-roading, so they are plenty strong.
Although we are looking at the bushings as a weak link, they used this setup in NASCAR, something like 30 years. Yes they added an adjusting sleeve like a tie-rod has, and they beefed it up, but when NASCAR allowed the front clip swaps under the fairlane in '66, it was a requirement that everything used the stock '65-66 galaxie mounting points (same as '72-79 intermediate suspension).
We are (probably) trying to re-invent the wheel here. I just can't find anyone making parts for a rear steer "Banjo Clip" or any of the Holman-Moody suspension anymore.
The above post should be read in a "Grumpy Old Man" voice.
Almost forgot: "Get off my lawn!!!"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BackInBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-September-2015 at 12:32AM
Agreed...I'm not so worried about the strength of teh heim or the strength of the rod itself.   If you've seen an actually tensile strength pull test...on a rod that size that is close to the size of re-bar.   I dont think (under normal uses) that the rod will break unless it is fatigued like seen from poly bushings.   I would rather have a replacement chromoly rod just to be on the safe side.

I'm more worried about the geometry.  Where the front pivot point is located relative to the LCA mounting point.   I would think they should be on the same centerline; or as close as possible.   I just dont know enough about suspension geometry to make that judgement call.   However, as someone(s) said that the offset is neglible as compared to the slop created by the rubber bushings shifting the alignment when pressed hard.


Edited by BackInBlack - 11-September-2015 at 12:33AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BackInBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-November-2015 at 11:29PM
All,
I got word back from the Little Shop on the kit and pricing.   Its a spherical bearing design like the one posted from RRS for Mustangs.
Last count I think we had 5 people committed with 2-3 undecided.   The littleshopmfg guys were looking for answer in a week or 2 before buying materials and start the build process.  They plan on getting it on the website after they get feedback from us.
Committed       Maybe
John                Rockatansky
Allan (1or2)      Lynchster(Chuck)
Randy              Russosborne
Andy
JimW

=============================================
The factory strut rod and nut are retained. This will serve as a replacement for the factory rubber bushing to eliminate slop in the front end. We've been using these bearings for years in various applications. They are PTFE lined and replaceable for about $25 each. They rarely see their service life on most applications.  This joint would work great with both factory upper control arms, and our caster-added upper control arms.  The exact dimensions may change slightly after I make a first article.  But visually it will still mostly look/work like this. The solid models are enough to continue with getting our group-buy number figured out. 
Ingredients:
spherical bearing
machined bearing cup, powdercoated or zinced
lasered/machined frame washer, powdercoated or zinced
misalignment spacer 1
misalignment spacer 2
3 - 5/16-24 bolts
3 - 5/16 mil-spec washers
3 - distorted thread lock nuts
 
Pricing for a pair will be as follows, based on how many people buy: 
1            375
2            365
3            355
4            345
5            335
6            325
7            315
8            305
9            295
10          285
11-15      265
16-20      245
21+        225

Terms:
I can make an item on the website whenever people are ready. I'm thinking: 
- deposit of $100
- Flat rate shipping of $20 to lower 48. 
- Group-buy deadline Dec 14
- Payment requests for balance sent Dec 15  
- Estimated manufacture and ship by Jan 11, pending balance has been paid










-John


Edited by BackInBlack - 13-November-2015 at 3:49AM
-John
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote madmaxtorino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-November-2015 at 2:59AM
I'm in for one or two sets.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BackInBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-November-2015 at 3:48AM
Excellent....I updated the post above with more details.   Please let me know ASAP either on this forum or PM me.  I got the A-arms from them also.  They look great.   Can't wait to get this front end fixed-up.   After this its the sway bar and panard bar for me :-)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BackInBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-November-2015 at 12:19AM
Committed
Yes                 Maybe                        No
John                Rockatansky              Big Bird (Randy)
Allan (1or2)     72FordGTS(Vince)      Lynchster(Chuck)
Andy               Russosborne
JimW               mlachance112785

Please get the word out for those who might be interested to review this thread.   Let me know via PM or the thread if your committed to the group buy so I can get them started building this strut bushing replacement.

-John

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eliteman76 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-November-2015 at 1:31AM
The issue at had for me is it does not resolve the fact the rod itself is old, rusted or damaged.
What I want is not just the end on the frame, I'm looking at the complete arm itself.

I'm undetermined right now on my end.
Andrew
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BackInBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-November-2015 at 1:40AM
I'm feeding back the group's responses as they come in.   I forwarded the concerns and asked if there is any analysis or additional info that can be provided regarding the safety of the design with respect of the additional load on the old strut arm with a fixed bearing vs the rubber bushing it will replace.  

Also, a comparison of pro/con between this design and a globalwest type of replacement kit which includes a new strut arm.

-John


Edited by BackInBlack - 16-November-2015 at 1:40AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eliteman76 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-November-2015 at 5:54AM
What I'd honestly prefer to see is the original strut rod reproduced and then sleeved with Dom tubing, with a fish mouth grind and weld job to slightly increase the od of the rod while having a brand new strut Rod out of a good grade of material.
I drive my car hard at times and this is a thing I've debated for some time.

Regarding the rod, my thoughts are is with the right strut Rod it essentially turns the lower arm into a large A arm.
What I don't know is how the movement of travel would be like.

I'd kill to put our chassis on a surface plate and measure with a cmm to put the movement in cad to see what the arc looks like during movement to see deflection.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eliteman76 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-November-2015 at 5:55AM
John, I am however in for the buy on this.
Meant to message but if we can get enough people I'm game.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BackInBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-November-2015 at 6:33AM
Basically, thelittleshop isn't going to perform any OEM level testing on this design.  Its not worth their time.  From my perspective this is a reasonable  design and a simple approach.  This type of bearing is used in 4WD applications.  It can take a punishing load.   So I don't believe this is a weak point. 
 
"The bearing in my design is a COM16T, which is 1", with misalignment spacers to fit a .77 size on the strut rod. The radial load on these, at the 1" size, is simply insane. They get used in all sorts of upper and lower control arm situations in off-road vehicles that see way more stress than anything these cars can generate. 
 
Another concerned raised was the strength of an aging strut rod.  I just purchased spare NOS parts myself.  Worst cast is you can simply have your strut rod cut/turned and rethreaded and use a threaded rod.  Either way you have options whether you use the OEM rods or create your own strut arm.  This design would work for either approach.
 
Another reference for this setup used on Mustangs
 
Thanks Andy...here is the status.   Is there anyone else we can touch base with to get the word out?   The more homies we have the better the pricing.   I haven't been able to reach JimW; can anyone reach out to him or call him to confirm?   Can anyone call Rockatansky, Russ, MLachance?   Is there anyone I'm missing here?   What about Ron Earp?
 
Committed
Yes                         Maybe                        No
John                      Rockatansky              Big Bird (Randy)
Allan (1or2)                                           Lynchster(Chuck)
Andy                     Russosborne
JimW                     mlachance112785
72FordGTS(Vince)
 
-John


Edited by BackInBlack - 16-November-2015 at 7:35AM
-John
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Bird Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-November-2015 at 9:13AM
This is more what I'm looking for:
This one also has spring jacks at all 4 corners, (and that's a slotted 12" rotor). My existing strut rods... not gonna push my luck with them. Already rusty/pitted and passenger side is visibly bent. (looks like someone put a jack or jackstand under it at some time in it's life.
The above post should be read in a "Grumpy Old Man" voice.
Almost forgot: "Get off my lawn!!!"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eliteman76 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-November-2015 at 10:18AM
Without getting off topic who's chassis is that?
Andrew
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mlachance112785 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-November-2015 at 9:07PM
I'm out. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BackInBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-November-2015 at 12:07AM
Committed
Yes                         Maybe                        No
John                      Rockatansky              Big Bird (Randy)
Allan (1or2)                                           Lynchster(Chuck)
Andy                     Russosborne              mlachance112785
JimW                     Anyone Else??
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-John
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BackInBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-November-2015 at 6:26AM
For reference for those concerned with the strength of the spherical bearing; here are some applications where these spherical bearings are used:
Used in various locations such as control arms; replacing ball joints, trailing arms in trucks etc.
 
 
 
 
 
 
-John
 


Edited by BackInBlack - 17-November-2015 at 6:28AM
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Location: Abington, MA
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mtburger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-November-2015 at 7:04AM
Originally posted by Eliteman76 Eliteman76 wrote:

Without getting off topic who's chassis is that?


Mine.

Those are OE Galaxie parts I believe...

Mike H.

http://www.forum.grantorinosport.org/73-montego-gt-project-chassis-work_topic6408_page2.html



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